Imperton

Since I am so lucky that I live in a part of the world where it regularly gets down to -20°C to -30°C / -4°F to -22°F in the winter, I've also discovered the limits of most "winter" cycling gear. Most face protection is, to put it simply, completely rubbish when it gets down to a certain temperature. This is mainly because they are either are too thin and doesn't provide enough protection, or they are made by complete amateurs who think that the solution to being too thin is to make the fabric thicker. Needless to say, thicker fabrics restrict breathing, and I could just as well be wearing a plastic bag over my head since I am suffocating anyhow. And not to mention that the heavy fabric holds moisture like a damp towel. Even some wool products get wet and start freezing over when it gets too cold. But, enough with the ranting.

tl;dr: What I want is some face/head protection for when it gets really cold that both lets me breathe and avoids getting damp from moisture from my breath. What are some good alternatives?

erig007

At those temps i use a 3mm neoprene balaclava that cover up to my nose and a neoprene face mask or a respirator, i used a 7mm neoprene balaclava before but it was too warm and didn't stretch enough for my big head. Neoprene doesn't hold moisture like wool so moisture just runoff like rain

TuckamoreDew

For face covering, I wear a neofleece half mask when it gets below about -10C and have worn it to below -30C. When it get's to about -20C I also wear ski goggles to cover more exposed skin. This is the mask I'm using now:

https://www.mec.ca/product/4003-253/s...06+50089+50114

I also use a DIY repirator/mask combo when it gets to about -30C, but that's mostly because I wear glasses and it helps me stay fog free. It definitely has condensation issues, though. If you're interested you can see some details here:

https://tuckamoredew.wordpress.com/20...-cycling-mask/

Myosmith

I like having a separate mask and combine it with a winter beanie or a traditional balaclava pulled down under my chin. Seirus makes a couple of combo mask/clavas but you don't get as many options for temp control. Masks give great protection without trapping all the moisture from your breath. Swapping from a bicycle helmet to a ski helmet or all-sport helmet with winter liner will help with the rest of your head.



This worked on a -17 F ride but you can see how much moisture from my breath got trapped in the fleece balaclava. Pulling a hood from a runner's pullover jacekt up over my MTB helmet helped a lot being I didn't have much winter cycling specific gear at the time.

TuckamoreDew

Oooh, great icicles Myosmith. This gives me an idea for a new thread...

chriskmurray

I want to give this a shot this winter but buying it depends on if we actually have a good winter this year. https://45nrth.com/products/softgoods/lung-cookie

erig007

Interesting i was looking for a wool balaclava to make the transition 30F to 0F, this could be it.

2_i 

Just as a comment, in downhill skiing -20 to -30 deg Celsius is a matter of fact temperature when you are at the top of a mountain. You go down at speeds high compared to cycling and I hardly ever saw anybody in a mask under those conditions. Provided the rest is well protected, the body is pretty good in maintaining the face comfortable. Now, I need to jump out from the avalanche I likely activated.

erig007

I have done some skiing as well, it's not the same level of exertion which means not the same level of sweat. Also you don't spend the same time under high speed wind neither 5 min vs 1hr more or less depending. 5 min being well dressed is not enough to get passed residual heat that you gather before reaching those harsh conditions. You just can't compare.

2_i 

Well, the effort is what increases your heat production. In skiing you are often stuck high up on the lift, with the lift stopped until wind gusts calm down. What I want to say is that when you have 2 situations where people act very differently, you need to look into psychology. The dominant culture is now of the life spend indoors and movement in vehicles between the buildings. Yes, some brave cyclists get outdoors but there think of themselves as some heroes battling elements though the situations are quite mundane and not much of challenge.

One lesson for me was a stay in Finland, where people stroll kids between -20 and -30 C and I did not see any covered in masks. The strollers were quite lightweight and nobody fussed much about anything. Tons of riders moved around the city in quite ordinary clothing, many without any head cover whatsoever. OK, I shut up.

erig007

Well you see what you want to see. In skiing I have been stucked for more than 1hr on a seat about 60 feet high up at -13C because they stopped the lift when i was still on it thinking that everybody had left. I was cold but it never was life threatening like i have had on a bicycle. Low temperature can be deadly and your body is not always there to warn you. Last winter i was walking with friends for half an hour one way at -7C with strong wind I was wearing the lightest summer tshirt from LG. At the end of the 1/2 hr to go back home, in matter of seconds i noticed the first signs of my body shutting down about 20 feet before my destination. More time outside and i would have just fell on the ground. It happened several time that i nearly lost my fingers even though the other parts of my body were fine. Not wearing a mask at -20C or -30C is just playing with fire. You could end up with a dark nose without even feeling it.
Anyway, at which temperature and how our body handle cold is something very relative. Some people can die from hypothermia at 0C others at -30C. Even the temperature alone doesn't mean much without knowing the wind, humidity level etc...

elcruxio

I use a buff in -30°C. I take it down when going up hill so I don't overheat.

elcruxio

Why were you walking in -7°C with only a t-shirt on?

And about seeing what you want to see. I live in northern Finland. People are not fussy about cold here. -30°C Is normal midwinter temperature and nothing to worry about.
But I have to say that stuff needs to be winter specific at most times. I thought my magnum 9000 boots would be cool for winter being thick and all. Well, broke my ankle because the sole apparently has no cold grip properties and froze my feet pretty badly because the sole transfers heat better than copper.

erig007

I left home with some friends to go rent a movie 30 min from there after a few seconds outside i realized that i was too hot so i decided to remove my coat and put it in a friend backpack. I was fine until the event.

Even if you are used to handle cold there is also a matter of how your body adapt to cold. If you decide to start riding in winter when it is already -20C outside your body could have hard time coping with it. In fact there is at least 3 ways that make our body adapt to cold:

https://anthro.palomar.edu/adapt/adapt_2.htm

[TABLE]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"] 1. [/TH]
[TD]increased basal metabolic rate[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"] 2. [/TH]
[TD]fat insulation of vital organs[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"] 3. [/TH]
[TD]long term change in blood flow patterns
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


Sorry for your ankle i hope it will get better.
Your broken ankle experience shows that cold is not a joke what appear easy can becomes dangerous very easily as well.
Icebug with grips?

elcruxio

I did say we are pretty casual about cold around here but there are some fundamentals that need to be followed. Sometimes people learn the hard way.

A thin base layer (t-shirt) and a thick jacket is always a bad idea. Base layer, mid layer (maybe even mid mid layer) and a top layer all combined allows for easier living all around. Then if you get hot you can strip the top layer for a while and put it back on when the cold hits. Or you can just open the jacket. If you get sweaty it's going to be bad.
Before taking the jacket off one should first remove gloves and headwear. and only open/remove the jacket when that fails. The head and gloves dissipate heat quite rapidly so they will help you cool down. This is actually one reason why I'm a bit sceptical about face masks. The face can at most times take care of itself because of all the heat coming off the head. That's why at most times a buff should suffice even in very cold conditions. And it can be lowered easily if needed

erig007

^
It's funny because last winter i did exactly the contrary and was fine all winter long it's just that this time i went too far with just a summer tshirt rather than my lightweight wool top. I forgot to mention that i was wearing thin wool gloves and a wool hat just not my thin coat (in fact i remember it was my softshell cutter jacket) during the walk. It would have been impossible for me to do even 20 feet without my hands freezing. But between 0C/32F and -15C/5F all i did last winter when i was walking in town was to wear a thin wool top but kept my face, head and hands covered at all time. When temps went down a little bit further i added a thin wicking baselayer under my thin wool top and only below -20C/-4F did i brought the wool coat to walk. But at all time from 0C/32F and below my face and hands were covered. On a bicycle at -20C/-4F without a facemask on a 1hr ride i'm pretty sure i would had got sinusitis and headaches even if my whole body was pretty well used to the cold winter. So not wearing a face mask works for you but it doesn't work for me. The face mask is necessary for me and it has nothing to do with my body being used to cold or not.

OneGoodLeg

Off topic, but what continent would you be skiing on at these temps? -20c is -4F. Snow sucks at those temps, it's like skiing on gravel.

Some mountains get frequent thermal inversion days, which means the top is warmer than the bottom. I've skiied Jackson Hole when it was under 30F at the base and almost 60F at the top. That's the best skiing, tee shirt weather.

The coldest weather I've ever skiied in is -30F (at the base), and that was a weird fluke in the weather, any body part that was exposed to wind as we skiied was at risk of serious frostbite damage. It hurt to ski that day. The only reason we stayed out was that we were for a search and rescue training session, which was turned into a impromptu cold weather training session. That was thee only day in my life that skiing wasn't fun.

On days like that, or anything below zero, I go for the full face microfleece baklava. The only problem is my beard freezing to my baklava. It happened biking in -16F last winter.
wea




And most mountains actually experience thermal inversion, meaning it's WARMER at the top than it is on the bottom. I've skiied Jackson Hole on days when it's been below 30f

2_i 

Sure, from some point on, as temperature decreases the skis do poorer and poorer job in melting the snow underneath and friction increases. However, on steep mountains you can correct for that by taking the more direct descent down. And after all, people ski across Antarctica.

As to locations, I have done myself Jackson Hole at quite low temperatures, also Banff (might have been approaching -40C there), Breckenridge, Big Sky, Vallee Blanche from Aiguille du Midi, Diavolezza, Nebelhorn, Obergurgl (Iceman area). I mention those where I recall low temperatures. As to the other end, in the Alps they open high-altitude areas for summer skiing and I have done that in August. It was not particularly pleasant, though. The snow was wet and compacted and if you fell you had a good chance to scrape the skin off your face.

As to the biking, the lowest I have done was -30C and that lasted just a day or so. With the warming, we do not get such good winters anymore where I live.

In spite of occasional inversions, typically the temperatures drop with elevation and this by as much as 6 C/km. The temperatures I referred to were at a local top where in addition the wind was trying to blow your head off. On occasions I might have even been without a hat if I forgot to take one along. These days I ski in a helmet, just like in biking, after rough experiences in both activities.

prooftheory

It seems like the whole layering thing should apply to the face too. Does anybody where a balaclava baselayer underneath another one? Smartwool under fleece? Or a tech mask under wool ski mask under neoprene?

The other thing someone brought up is facial hair. Are people more successful with masks with a beard or does it get in the way?

bent-not-broken

I use the neoprene half mask over a balaclava once temps drop below 15F. I cut a 'blow hole' for my mouth or I would drown in respiration moisture. It works for me down to -25F. I add goggles at 5F. I also switch to a Ski helmet at 0F.

prooftheory

Has anyone ever tried something like these? Do they solve the warm breath in the balaclava problem?

erig007

From what i know the cold avenger seems to create fog on goggles because the tightening system doesn't allow to tighten it enough

prooftheory

But that is true of everything you put on your face, isn't it? Does it stay dry rather than collecting frozen breath moisture?

erig007

Some masks are better than others when it is about fogging this one seems to be in the low-average category

A better picture here to see the gap around the nose


Regarding moisture:




https://cozywinters.com/facemask-balaclava.html

LazySunday

I've used the Outdoor Research Sonic Balaclava (https://www.amazon.ca/Outdoor-Researc.../dp/B001FOBGRQ) with success down to -20C. Still have to test it at lower temperatures but it felt plenty warm at those temperatures. Ski goggles are a must for me at those temperatures. Stops your eyes from going dry on descents and won't fog up like regular sunglasses.