hi tensile steel frame life expectancy
#76
Calamari Marionette Ph.D
I can argue facts. I just prefer to stick to that exclusively. You enjoy mixing in personal confrontation and attacks. That type of communication style doesn't interest me.
#77
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#78
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Sure, and back in the day, if the power went out in the dentist's office, it didn't matter, because with no X-rays and no electric drills, the guy would just keep pounding away at your tooth with a hammer and chisel.
In the old days a lot of people had to do a lot of work to keep track of things which is now done automatically at the register. The "Cash Register" as it was (which registered the exchange of cash) doesn't even exist nowadays. What is in its place is a money/inventory control/employee monitoring system which greatly enhances the ability of the store to track who is working and what they are doing, what is being sold, how many are left, and how many need to be ordered, plus method of payment, tons of info about customers which enables retailers to stock what people want and helps them anticipate which new products to order .....
Ah, for the Goode Olde Days, when cancer was always fatal ... and so were half a hundred other diseases .... When doctors advertised cigarettes and denied there were any health issues associated with smoking.
Sorry, the Goode Olde Days had their drawbacks as well as their strengths. Same as today. Mostly because it is all humans doing stupid human tricks anyway ... and people don't change much from generation to generation. The foci change; the tech changes; but human beings do the same stupid stuff decade after decade, Millennium after millennium.
Yeah, a garbage bike from 50 years ago is a lot Different than a garbage bike today. That doesn't mean everything used to be better .... just that everything is always different.
Except people. We still pull the same stupid nostalgia bit when we start to age, telling everyone how much better everything used to be ... forgetting that our 'better" was the previous generation's "worse."
I'd be glad to find an '70s Schwinn at a yard sale or something .... I'd ride it. I have two mid-'80s bikes which I enjoy riding. Doesn't mean my modern bikes suck.
And yeah, consumerism has led us to the current situation where everything wears out fast ... and you know what? Even if the stuff Doesn't wear out, a lot of people replace stuff just because they find it enjoyable.
For a while a friend and I made spare cash by driving through upper-middle class neighborhoods the night before trash day, picking up the perfectly good stuff they were throwing away because they wanted something new.
No one Makes people be consumers. people have fun that it can be fun to consume. Most people don't Want the "same, old" appliance or clothing or tool ....they want the "latest, greatest ...."
What we don't like about it isn't that it is existentially "bad" but that it is not the situation, nor the values, which we had growing up. Hey, news flash---Every generation has different values and a different environment, social and commercial, than the previous generation.
(Generalization Warning if our parents hated early rock, or for some, the last vestiges of rock, which their kids loved .... we hate rap and hip-hop, which the kids love. Around the turn of the 20th century, parents hated blues and jazz ... around WWII Swing was the evil unholy, devolved music that parents hated.
Same as it ever was.
In the old days a lot of people had to do a lot of work to keep track of things which is now done automatically at the register. The "Cash Register" as it was (which registered the exchange of cash) doesn't even exist nowadays. What is in its place is a money/inventory control/employee monitoring system which greatly enhances the ability of the store to track who is working and what they are doing, what is being sold, how many are left, and how many need to be ordered, plus method of payment, tons of info about customers which enables retailers to stock what people want and helps them anticipate which new products to order .....
Ah, for the Goode Olde Days, when cancer was always fatal ... and so were half a hundred other diseases .... When doctors advertised cigarettes and denied there were any health issues associated with smoking.
Sorry, the Goode Olde Days had their drawbacks as well as their strengths. Same as today. Mostly because it is all humans doing stupid human tricks anyway ... and people don't change much from generation to generation. The foci change; the tech changes; but human beings do the same stupid stuff decade after decade, Millennium after millennium.
Yeah, a garbage bike from 50 years ago is a lot Different than a garbage bike today. That doesn't mean everything used to be better .... just that everything is always different.
Except people. We still pull the same stupid nostalgia bit when we start to age, telling everyone how much better everything used to be ... forgetting that our 'better" was the previous generation's "worse."
I'd be glad to find an '70s Schwinn at a yard sale or something .... I'd ride it. I have two mid-'80s bikes which I enjoy riding. Doesn't mean my modern bikes suck.
And yeah, consumerism has led us to the current situation where everything wears out fast ... and you know what? Even if the stuff Doesn't wear out, a lot of people replace stuff just because they find it enjoyable.
For a while a friend and I made spare cash by driving through upper-middle class neighborhoods the night before trash day, picking up the perfectly good stuff they were throwing away because they wanted something new.
No one Makes people be consumers. people have fun that it can be fun to consume. Most people don't Want the "same, old" appliance or clothing or tool ....they want the "latest, greatest ...."
What we don't like about it isn't that it is existentially "bad" but that it is not the situation, nor the values, which we had growing up. Hey, news flash---Every generation has different values and a different environment, social and commercial, than the previous generation.
(Generalization Warning if our parents hated early rock, or for some, the last vestiges of rock, which their kids loved .... we hate rap and hip-hop, which the kids love. Around the turn of the 20th century, parents hated blues and jazz ... around WWII Swing was the evil unholy, devolved music that parents hated.
Same as it ever was.
I too have a modern bike that is 3 years old, along with others that are up to 31 years old, no problem riding any of them, no problem with old vs new, they all work just fine, they do what I want a bike to do, pedal, brake, shift, and turn...not necessarily in that order!
#79
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My cat got sick last week. Took him to the vet. The vet took a quick look...felt around with his hand, and figured out what the problem was in c. 2 minutes. If that had been a human doctor, they would have ordered all kinds of CAT scans and X-rays and blood tests....but the vet still does it the old-fashioned way, like human doctors used to, and it works just as well, if not better- and it's a LOT cheaper. (My 92 year-old mother often remarks how healthcare was so much better in the 1930's and 40's than it is today, when doctors knew their stuff and relied on their senses, rather than technology.)
And all the technology in the world does not make up for doctors no lonfer making housecalls or being there whenever you needed them- as opposed to telling you to just go to the ER if it's after office hours, or if they are out globe-trotting, going to conferences and speaking engagements, etc. which seem to occupy about 50% of their time today.
#80
Senior Member
1960 -- $99 = $807 (2016)
1970 -- $99 = $615
1980 -- $99 = $280
If you don't crash, leave it the rain, and perform basic maintenance, most bikes frames can outlast their owner (regardless of material). That's why many companies offer lifetime warranties, they know the frame is basically robust, and other factors generally result in the bike getting binned.
#81
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Yes, but $99 then is equivalent to what now? That would be considered an "expensive" bike in todays world. It's not that good bikes have gotten cheaper, it's that we've figured out how to make bikes far cheaper by cutting costs.
1960 -- $99 = $807 (2016)
1970 -- $99 = $615
1980 -- $99 = $280
If you don't crash, leave it the rain, and perform basic maintenance, most bikes frames can outlast their owner (regardless of material). That's why many companies offer lifetime warranties, they know the frame is basically robust, and other factors generally result in the bike getting binned.
1960 -- $99 = $807 (2016)
1970 -- $99 = $615
1980 -- $99 = $280
If you don't crash, leave it the rain, and perform basic maintenance, most bikes frames can outlast their owner (regardless of material). That's why many companies offer lifetime warranties, they know the frame is basically robust, and other factors generally result in the bike getting binned.
But yes, those frames sure could last. I think it was even more true for the cheaper bikes, since they were made of heavier thicker straight-gauge tubing. Even today, if someone were to take reasonable care of a $150 Walmart bike, the frame would probably last for decades, whereas a good deal of the light expensive CF bikes will be long gone. (Or even the better-quality cro-moly and aluminum bikes, like my Klein for that matter- since strength/ruggedness are sacrificed for performance. My $300 Bikesdirect fat-bike though....that'll probably be around 50 years from now!)
#82
Senior Member
Going to the dentist and having the internet go out ,that happened to me,,, seems I have a tooth that is dead yea they did the cold water test I didn't feel anything they did the Ol three stooges test where they hit the teeth till they get to the dull thonk ,I heard the difference this was two years ago,, only problem I don't have any problems with it ,doesn't hurt me I chew normal with it but they say I need a root canal and crown 2200.00 worth ,,, so two months ago I made the decision ,my insurance doesn't cover it anyway I was gonna do it so I get there and they start prepping me but the WiFi had been out,,so they couldn't get to my files or xrays they weren't sure what tooth they were supposed to work on so finally they came and asked me , and I tell them it was number 12 which is next to the incizicer on top,but they weren't confident with that so they made the decision to postpone the procedure,,that also made up my mind,I'm not getting it done ,,,,
#83
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When I go to the dentist, I don't let them take X-rays. If it can't be seen by the human eye...it doesn't need to be messed with. (Ya gotta shop around to find a dentist who will accommodate this). As a result, I, unlike most guys my age whom I know, have no dental problems, nor a mouth patched up with drilled holes and fillings in teeth which were perfectly good. And I only go to the dentist on average of once per decade.
My cat got sick last week. Took him to the vet. The vet took a quick look...felt around with his hand, and figured out what the problem was in c. 2 minutes. If that had been a human doctor, they would have ordered all kinds of CAT scans and X-rays and blood tests....but the vet still does it the old-fashioned way, like human doctors used to, and it works just as well, if not better- and it's a LOT cheaper. (My 92 year-old mother often remarks how healthcare was so much better in the 1930's and 40's than it is today, when doctors knew their stuff and relied on their senses, rather than technology.)
And all the technology in the world does not make up for doctors no lonfer making housecalls or being there whenever you needed them- as opposed to telling you to just go to the ER if it's after office hours, or if they are out globe-trotting, going to conferences and speaking engagements, etc. which seem to occupy about 50% of their time today.
My cat got sick last week. Took him to the vet. The vet took a quick look...felt around with his hand, and figured out what the problem was in c. 2 minutes. If that had been a human doctor, they would have ordered all kinds of CAT scans and X-rays and blood tests....but the vet still does it the old-fashioned way, like human doctors used to, and it works just as well, if not better- and it's a LOT cheaper. (My 92 year-old mother often remarks how healthcare was so much better in the 1930's and 40's than it is today, when doctors knew their stuff and relied on their senses, rather than technology.)
And all the technology in the world does not make up for doctors no lonfer making housecalls or being there whenever you needed them- as opposed to telling you to just go to the ER if it's after office hours, or if they are out globe-trotting, going to conferences and speaking engagements, etc. which seem to occupy about 50% of their time today.
#84
Full Member
I haven't read the thread. I skimmed it and it seems to have derailed.
I have a 1997 Steel Gary fisher that has seen hundreds of hours of sandy, salty (New England) abuse and has minimal rust. I've commuted on and off for ??12? years on a Lotus Challenger as my bad weather bike. The Rock salt on the roads in the winter eats chains but the corrosion on the frame is insignificant. I do tear it apart to clean and relube seasonally after the bad weather.
As far as just wearing a hi ten steel frame out in a good weather environment? I don't know of many people who've done that without help from a car, bad braze or whatnot. I can't recall where, but I believe I read that Freddie Hoffman has a few hundred thousand miles on his Waterford steel frame.
I have a 1997 Steel Gary fisher that has seen hundreds of hours of sandy, salty (New England) abuse and has minimal rust. I've commuted on and off for ??12? years on a Lotus Challenger as my bad weather bike. The Rock salt on the roads in the winter eats chains but the corrosion on the frame is insignificant. I do tear it apart to clean and relube seasonally after the bad weather.
As far as just wearing a hi ten steel frame out in a good weather environment? I don't know of many people who've done that without help from a car, bad braze or whatnot. I can't recall where, but I believe I read that Freddie Hoffman has a few hundred thousand miles on his Waterford steel frame.
#85
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Technology and experienced gained over the years cannot be matched even by the best doctor in the world back in the 30's and 40's, sure they may have had better senses when it came to diagnosing, but that can only take a doctor so far. I think your mom may have been referring to cost, for example in 1940's child birth only cost $57. So what you scream, there was inflation, true, but with inflation that childbirth should cost $982 not $3,500 for the average birth expense. So cost wise healthcare was A LOT better back in the 30's and 40's but just don't go get a heart operation! So in the aspect of healthcare, cost was a lot better years ago but the chances of saving your life are a lot better today.
And sure, there have been certain advances in technology- like, if you get a limb sawn off or something, they may well be able to sew it back on today and make it usable, whereas that wasn't happening in 1940- but on the other side of the coin (and leaving cost completely out of the equation) I think doctors have largely lost the benefit of the knowledge they used to gain through experience, as that knowledge has now been replaced with high-tech tests (Often mandated by the doctor's insurance, merely as a defense in case there is a misdiagnosis- they can say "Well, we ran all of the standard tests, and this is whast it pointed to"), and medical studies, which are often contradictory, statistically meaningless, turn out to be fraudulent, etc.
The doctors now rely upon such things more so than on their own observations, and in many [most] cases have just become practitioners by rote of a complex system involving government, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, LLC's, etc. -with the patient being just a "client" who "receives services"- and the protocol which is followed is now administered by a doctor...but not really designed by him, so therefore is not necessarily specific to his patient, or what the doctor's experience would have him do...but is just what the doctor has been trained to do as being "proper protocol", based more upon the decisions and dictates of the aforementioned institutions, than on personal interaction and experience.
I haven't been to a doctor since 1978- and from what I've been seeing over the last few years now that my mother has been needing to deal with the healthcare system on more frequent basis, I can only say that I made a good decision way back when....
#86
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Going to the dentist and having the internet go out ,that happened to me,,, seems I have a tooth that is dead yea they did the cold water test I didn't feel anything they did the Ol three stooges test where they hit the teeth till they get to the dull thonk ,I heard the difference this was two years ago,, only problem I don't have any problems with it ,doesn't hurt me I chew normal with it but they say I need a root canal and crown 2200.00 worth ,,, so two months ago I made the decision ,my insurance doesn't cover it anyway I was gonna do it so I get there and they start prepping me but the WiFi had been out,,so they couldn't get to my files or xrays they weren't sure what tooth they were supposed to work on so finally they came and asked me , and I tell them it was number 12 which is next to the incizicer on top,but they weren't confident with that so they made the decision to postpone the procedure,,that also made up my mind,I'm not getting it done ,,,,
I haven't read the thread. I skimmed it and it seems to have derailed.
I have a 1997 Steel Gary fisher that has seen hundreds of hours of sandy, salty (New England) abuse and has minimal rust. I've commuted on and off for ??12? years on a Lotus Challenger as my bad weather bike. The Rock salt on the roads in the winter eats chains but the corrosion on the frame is insignificant. I do tear it apart to clean and relube seasonally after the bad weather.
As far as just wearing a hi ten steel frame out in a good weather environment? I don't know of many people who've done that without help from a car, bad braze or whatnot. I can't recall where, but I believe I read that Freddie Hoffman has a few hundred thousand miles on his Waterford steel frame.
I have a 1997 Steel Gary fisher that has seen hundreds of hours of sandy, salty (New England) abuse and has minimal rust. I've commuted on and off for ??12? years on a Lotus Challenger as my bad weather bike. The Rock salt on the roads in the winter eats chains but the corrosion on the frame is insignificant. I do tear it apart to clean and relube seasonally after the bad weather.
As far as just wearing a hi ten steel frame out in a good weather environment? I don't know of many people who've done that without help from a car, bad braze or whatnot. I can't recall where, but I believe I read that Freddie Hoffman has a few hundred thousand miles on his Waterford steel frame.
#87
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I haven't read the thread. I skimmed it and it seems to have derailed.
I have a 1997 Steel Gary fisher that has seen hundreds of hours of sandy, salty (New England) abuse and has minimal rust. I've commuted on and off for ??12? years on a Lotus Challenger as my bad weather bike. The Rock salt on the roads in the winter eats chains but the corrosion on the frame is insignificant. I do tear it apart to clean and relube seasonally after the bad weather.
As far as just wearing a hi ten steel frame out in a good weather environment? I don't know of many people who've done that without help from a car, bad braze or whatnot. I can't recall where, but I believe I read that Freddie Hoffman has a few hundred thousand miles on his Waterford steel frame.
I have a 1997 Steel Gary fisher that has seen hundreds of hours of sandy, salty (New England) abuse and has minimal rust. I've commuted on and off for ??12? years on a Lotus Challenger as my bad weather bike. The Rock salt on the roads in the winter eats chains but the corrosion on the frame is insignificant. I do tear it apart to clean and relube seasonally after the bad weather.
As far as just wearing a hi ten steel frame out in a good weather environment? I don't know of many people who've done that without help from a car, bad braze or whatnot. I can't recall where, but I believe I read that Freddie Hoffman has a few hundred thousand miles on his Waterford steel frame.
He also has another bike he rides on wet rides, a 75 Schwinn Collegiate. That darn bike has rust all over it and looks like something that came out of a junkyard, but he still keeps riding it. I'm not sure how many miles are on that bike. The weird part is I've never known a Collegiate to last a long time, but his has.
By the way, a big WAY TO GO, goes out to Waterford for providing him with his last two bikes, nice, real nice.
#88
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Nay. My mom wasn't figuring cost into the equation at all (That's more of my area of concer..). One of the things she meant was how, for example, when shec got seriously sick in her teens, they called the family doctor in the middle of the night...and he came to the house. Today, by comparison, when my mother gets sick (which is starting to happen quite frequently now that she is in her 90's) it can take HOURS just to get a hold of her doctor in the middle of the day, via telephone- if the doctor is even in town on that day. In the evening or on a weekend, forget it. Basically, if she needs any care outside of scheduled appointments....she just has to go to the hospital.
And sure, there have been certain advances in technology- like, if you get a limb sawn off or something, they may well be able to sew it back on today and make it usable, whereas that wasn't happening in 1940- but on the other side of the coin (and leaving cost completely out of the equation) I think doctors have largely lost the benefit of the knowledge they used to gain through experience, as that knowledge has now been replaced with high-tech tests (Often mandated by the doctor's insurance, merely as a defense in case there is a misdiagnosis- they can say "Well, we ran all of the standard tests, and this is whast it pointed to"), and medical studies, which are often contradictory, statistically meaningless, turn out to be fraudulent, etc.
The doctors now rely upon such things more so than on their own observations, and in many [most] cases have just become practitioners by rote of a complex system involving government, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, LLC's, etc. -with the patient being just a "client" who "receives services"- and the protocol which is followed is now administered by a doctor...but not really designed by him, so therefore is not necessarily specific to his patient, or what the doctor's experience would have him do...but is just what the doctor has been trained to do as being "proper protocol", based more upon the decisions and dictates of the aforementioned institutions, than on personal interaction and experience.
I haven't been to a doctor since 1978- and from what I've been seeing over the last few years now that my mother has been needing to deal with the healthcare system on more frequent basis, I can only say that I made a good decision way back when....
And sure, there have been certain advances in technology- like, if you get a limb sawn off or something, they may well be able to sew it back on today and make it usable, whereas that wasn't happening in 1940- but on the other side of the coin (and leaving cost completely out of the equation) I think doctors have largely lost the benefit of the knowledge they used to gain through experience, as that knowledge has now been replaced with high-tech tests (Often mandated by the doctor's insurance, merely as a defense in case there is a misdiagnosis- they can say "Well, we ran all of the standard tests, and this is whast it pointed to"), and medical studies, which are often contradictory, statistically meaningless, turn out to be fraudulent, etc.
The doctors now rely upon such things more so than on their own observations, and in many [most] cases have just become practitioners by rote of a complex system involving government, insurance companies, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals, LLC's, etc. -with the patient being just a "client" who "receives services"- and the protocol which is followed is now administered by a doctor...but not really designed by him, so therefore is not necessarily specific to his patient, or what the doctor's experience would have him do...but is just what the doctor has been trained to do as being "proper protocol", based more upon the decisions and dictates of the aforementioned institutions, than on personal interaction and experience.
I haven't been to a doctor since 1978- and from what I've been seeing over the last few years now that my mother has been needing to deal with the healthcare system on more frequent basis, I can only say that I made a good decision way back when....
#89
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This ability to diagnose patients I do believe has become a lost art because technology has taken that position, which as we all know technology is not fool proof, we should be doing both! This same issue is going on with auto mechanics too, the art of diagnosing as been transferred to technology and now mechanics are mostly parts replacers, they just replace the part the computer says is bad, we get the car back after spending $$$ and the problem is still there.
#90
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This ability to diagnose patients I do believe has become a lost art because technology has taken that position, which as we all know technology is not fool proof, we should be doing both! This same issue is going on with auto mechanics too, the art of diagnosing as been transferred to technology and now mechanics are mostly parts replacers, they just replace the part the computer says is bad, we get the car back after spending $$$ and the problem is still there.
Great analogy about mechanics, too, by-the-way!
I generally do all of my own mechanical work, but a while back I had this van, and the horn did not work. I don't like getting into electrical stuff on vehicles, so I took it to this guy who is very expensive, but who I always thought was very thorough and competent. He fooled around with it, and looked stuff up on his computer and followed the diagnostic flow charts...and was stymied. He had to get into it deeper. Seemed a little excessive for something as simple as a horn.
I was aware of another guy whom I had never been to, but who had a reputation for being good with electrical stuff- so I took the van to him. He just eyeballs it, and in 2 minutes had it figured out. There was some after-market wiring, because the van had formerly been an emergency vehicle, and when they had taken out all of the strobes and sirens and stuff, they apparently never hooked the horn back up properly. No computers..no flow charts...just a quick eyeballing, and a few minutes, and it was done.
The other guy, getting deeper into it with his computer-guided stuff, would NEVER ever have figured it out, simply because he never would have been led to look in the place where the problem was.
The original guy was by no means a bad mechanic...but he just learned to rely too much upon the computer...and the computer is not programmed to look for the possiblity of third-party alterations, so there is no way it coukld ever catch it. It would have had him replace everything in the horn's circuit, from the button, to the horn and the relay and the airbag clockspring, etc. and still the problem would not have been fixed, because the wiring had been altered, and only a pair of human eyes could see that, if one just took the initiative to look.
I can NOT think of a more fitting analogy!
#91
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By the way, my life was saved by heart surgery which didn't exist way back when ... I guess That is the real reason you all hate modern developments.
I had the broken root of one tooth removed by hammer and chisel, without anesthetics. It hurt like Hell. I have had others done with anesthetics and modern tools--painless, almost pleasant.
You guys do what you like. I am not so old that I can join you in Curmudgeonville just yet. I haven't yet learned not to appreciate the good if it also happens to be the new.
Oh, and Stucky ... better ditch that Modern Klein, or be called a hypocrite.
I had the broken root of one tooth removed by hammer and chisel, without anesthetics. It hurt like Hell. I have had others done with anesthetics and modern tools--painless, almost pleasant.
You guys do what you like. I am not so old that I can join you in Curmudgeonville just yet. I haven't yet learned not to appreciate the good if it also happens to be the new.
Oh, and Stucky ... better ditch that Modern Klein, or be called a hypocrite.
#92
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a friend of mine married the top woman in town who does robotic heart surgery.
I think a lot of our threads (freds?) are overlapping. Most people don't need the latest and greatest, and are often better served by the old reliable. More power to the people who really do need an edge. When it comes to bicycles, I'm not one of them.
If I have a gripe, it's N+1 marketing, and the waste it can produce.
In 2015, we imported 17 million bicycles from China, the largest acid-gas polluter on the planet. Not a one-time event - this many and more every year.
I think a lot of our threads (freds?) are overlapping. Most people don't need the latest and greatest, and are often better served by the old reliable. More power to the people who really do need an edge. When it comes to bicycles, I'm not one of them.
If I have a gripe, it's N+1 marketing, and the waste it can produce.
In 2015, we imported 17 million bicycles from China, the largest acid-gas polluter on the planet. Not a one-time event - this many and more every year.
Last edited by bulldog1935; 01-06-17 at 07:22 AM.
#93
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yeah, Buy American ... because we are currently the second biggest polluter. If we all pull together we can overtake China.
#94
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This is a thread about steel bikes, which are here to stay, and the US is one of the best about converting our acid gases to solid.
I don't see a need to buy new with all the nice old steel bikes out there.
as long as we continue to buy crap, we're paying China to pollute our oceans
I don't see a need to buy new with all the nice old steel bikes out there.
as long as we continue to buy crap, we're paying China to pollute our oceans
Last edited by bulldog1935; 01-05-17 at 08:42 PM.
#95
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#98
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Actually, that is some sort of "index," ranking one type of pollution per capita or per square mile rop whatever. I will do some more research, but looking at total volume of emissions, solid waste, water contamination .... are you really saying the mostly 3rd-world people of Botswana pollute more than the 300 million in the US?
#99
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That is some sort of Index ranking some sorts of pollution according to population, GDP, area, or whatever. Do you really think the several million mostly 3rd-world people in say, Ghana, put out more pollution on the whole than the 300 million in the US? Really?
Try actual volume and also per capita C02 emission: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...xide_emissions
I see the US as seciond to China, and way higher in per capita output.
The EPA seems to agree: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/glo...emissions-data
Try actual volume and also per capita C02 emission: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...xide_emissions
I see the US as seciond to China, and way higher in per capita output.
The EPA seems to agree: https://www.epa.gov/ghgemissions/glo...emissions-data
#100
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Actually, that is some sort of "index," ranking one type of pollution per capita or per square mile rop whatever. I will do some more research, but looking at total volume of emissions, solid waste, water contamination .... are you really saying the mostly 3rd-world people of Botswana pollute more than the 300 million in the US?
One thing you must realize is that any site that states pollution levels and compares them world wide all have agendas, a lot of places want the US to look bad because we are such a terrible nation and we need to be scorned at.
Here's another look at the pollution offenders by WHO as reported by CNBC News, (I'm sending you to the number 1 polluter in the world, hit the click back button to scroll through to see where America ranks); see: World?s Most Polluted Countries
The EPA is a leftest JOKE!! I wouldn't give them the time of day. I think WHO has a much better grasp of reality.