Long cage, short cage, mid cage?
#1
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Long cage, short cage, mid cage?
I have been working on a new to me neglected 1983 Trek 700. It came with mismatched parts in rear, so I wanted to use a vintage Suntour on the rear. The missing stock unit was the Superbe Tech which I have read was problematic. I put on a 28T freewheel and purchased here from another C&V member a very nice Suntour VX-S RD that seems to be just perfect.
The search got me to wondering. It seemed as if a mid length cage was not very common. Many short cages for the sport oriented, and most said they would take a 28T. Many Long cages for the wide range types too. I just found it curious, as the VX-S seemed like such a nice general purpose compromise.
Of course, many of the old road 10 speeds were 34 teeth and the sporty ones were 22 or so, so perhaps the market wasn't there. In my limited knowledge, it would seem that a 14-30 or 32T 6 speed freewheel might be a nice compromise on a vintage sport touring bike. Just wondering.
The search got me to wondering. It seemed as if a mid length cage was not very common. Many short cages for the sport oriented, and most said they would take a 28T. Many Long cages for the wide range types too. I just found it curious, as the VX-S seemed like such a nice general purpose compromise.
Of course, many of the old road 10 speeds were 34 teeth and the sporty ones were 22 or so, so perhaps the market wasn't there. In my limited knowledge, it would seem that a 14-30 or 32T 6 speed freewheel might be a nice compromise on a vintage sport touring bike. Just wondering.
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Go to Disraeli gears a great resource for RD capacity I used it to see if a Suntour GS I had could handle a Shimano Mega Range 34 large gear FW.
#3
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Typically the choice was long cage or short cage.
14-32 5 speed was the defacto standard 'touring' (meaning recreational) bike gearing when I first got into cycling. 42/52 up front.
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i would call the suntour cyclone-s RD that came on my '85 schwinn SLT a mid cage. the cage is longer than the short cage Mk-II, but shorter than any of the suntour GT's i also have. plus!!...(and, i only discovered this a couple of weeks ago)... the idler pulley is larger than the jockey. i've only ever seen them the same size on suntour mechs.
i've yet to see what the actual max capacities are on this (ie. cog and chainwrap), but i'm anxious to find out. i have to wait for a couple more things to arrive in the mail before i put it all back together
i've yet to see what the actual max capacities are on this (ie. cog and chainwrap), but i'm anxious to find out. i have to wait for a couple more things to arrive in the mail before i put it all back together
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Desraili Gears
I did lots of perusing at Desrali Gears for my replacement. Kinda saw a lot there in my search for a Suntour. Ideally, an early Cyclone or Superbe may have been a choice. Both mentioned 28 teeth max, so borderline, and pricey. I just thought a long cage looked a bit clunky for a 28T also. Very happy with what I got, and it shifts great and was way cheaper than the others.
I guess no market need for mid cage length as most freewheels did the jump from mid 20 teeth to 34, so you just got a long or short. Maybe a chicken and egg thing.
I guess no market need for mid cage length as most freewheels did the jump from mid 20 teeth to 34, so you just got a long or short. Maybe a chicken and egg thing.
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lately i've been thinking about chain wrap capacity and a rear derailleur solution. like if you go with a big gap in chainring sizes, (like a 46-30) with a 13-24 freewheel, will a short cage work with that? i'm gathering stuff for a build with an austro daimler olympian frame and that possible gearing setup.
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lately i've been thinking about chain wrap capacity and a rear derailleur solution. like if you go with a big gap in chainring sizes, (like a 46-30) with a 13-24 freewheel, will a short cage work with that? i'm gathering stuff for a build with an austro daimler olympian frame and that possible gearing setup.
#8
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lately i've been thinking about chain wrap capacity and a rear derailleur solution. like if you go with a big gap in chainring sizes, (like a 46-30) with a 13-24 freewheel, will a short cage work with that? i'm gathering stuff for a build with an austro daimler olympian frame and that possible gearing setup.
though you don't intend for a triple up front, this explains well how to use a short cage for your wide range crank set up....
Triple Chainrings with Short Rear Derailleurs
#9
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thank you, good article as i am also confused about how to set up chain length with my setup...
i have an NR, an old shimano ultegra, and a microshift centos in the parts box. i also have a microshift mezzo rd45 long cage that i was looking for an excuse to do a dr frankenstein hack job to cut the cage down and redrill and tap the bottom pulley bolt holes so it doesn't reach all the way to china.
i have an NR, an old shimano ultegra, and a microshift centos in the parts box. i also have a microshift mezzo rd45 long cage that i was looking for an excuse to do a dr frankenstein hack job to cut the cage down and redrill and tap the bottom pulley bolt holes so it doesn't reach all the way to china.
Last edited by cocoabeachcrab; 08-19-19 at 04:04 PM.
#10
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thank you, good article as i am also confused about how to set up chain length with my setup...
i have an NR, an old shimano ultegra, and a microshift centos in the parts box. i also have a microshift mezzo rd45 long cage that i was looking for an excuse to do a dr frankenstein hack job to cut the cage down and redrill and tap the bottom pulley bolt holes so it doesn't reach all the way to china.
i have an NR, an old shimano ultegra, and a microshift centos in the parts box. i also have a microshift mezzo rd45 long cage that i was looking for an excuse to do a dr frankenstein hack job to cut the cage down and redrill and tap the bottom pulley bolt holes so it doesn't reach all the way to china.
If....
short cage RD capacity = 28t
freewheel = 28-13t = 15
chainset = 46-30t = 16
16+15 = 31
so, that exceeds the RD capacity by 3 teeth
so, then figure what largest cog you can away with using while on the large ring to fall within the RD capacity
24-13t = 11
16+11= 27...within the RD capacity
so, set the chain length while on the 24t cog and largest ring. never shift to the 28t cog while on the largest ring you're safe
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#12
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#13
Banned.
My latest approach is to go big on the cassette, long on the RD.
My most common "glitch" is the RD hitting the cassette.
Wolftooth's Road Link, or whatever that's called, fixes that for me, so far.
My most common "glitch" is the RD hitting the cassette.
Wolftooth's Road Link, or whatever that's called, fixes that for me, so far.
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apparently that is what it's called as i just looked it up. novel idea...lol! i mean that finally someone made one. i'd thought of fabbing one a while ago, but realized it would have to recess so the derailleur wouldn't be too far outboard. couldn't figure a way around that simply enough and blew it off
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[MENTION=7377]coco[/MENTION]beachcrab my go to method for chain length is from St Sheldon the Brown, here - scroll down to the section on chain length.
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[MENTION=7377]coco[/MENTION]beachcrab my go to method for chain length is from St Sheldon the Brown, here - scroll down to the section on chain length.
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Long cage derailleurs came a long way between the 70's and 90's. My circa-1990 Deore LX shifted quickly and flawlessly despite having a long cage. I would rather have as much capacity as I could possibly need, than to get clever with a short-cage derailleur and hope I don't absent-mindedly destroy it while out on the road.
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Long cage derailleurs came a long way between the 70's and 90's. My circa-1990 Deore LX shifted quickly and flawlessly despite having a long cage. I would rather have as much capacity as I could possibly need, than to get clever with a short-cage derailleur and hope I don't absent-mindedly destroy it while out on the road.
For example, I'm still getting used to the Huret Jubilee drivetrain on my Motobecane, and I've definitely accidentally shifted into big/big even when trying to make a conscious effort not to. It would be such a shame to let an accidental overshift or simple absentmindedness cause a major mechanical issue.
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Long cage derailleurs came a long way between the 70's and 90's. My circa-1990 Deore LX shifted quickly and flawlessly despite having a long cage. I would rather have as much capacity as I could possibly need, than to get clever with a short-cage derailleur and hope I don't absent-mindedly destroy it while out on the road.
#20
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you just have to decide which RD you're gonna use and what the gear range will be on your cassette/freewheel. then, you can figure the max chain length with some math
If....
short cage RD capacity = 28t
freewheel = 28-13t = 15
chainset = 46-30t = 16
16+15 = 31
so, that exceeds the RD capacity by 3 teeth
so, then figure what largest cog you can away with using while on the large ring to fall within the RD capacity
24-13t = 11
16+11= 27...within the RD capacity
so, set the chain length while on the 24t cog and largest ring. never shift to the 28t cog while on the largest ring you're safe
If....
short cage RD capacity = 28t
freewheel = 28-13t = 15
chainset = 46-30t = 16
16+15 = 31
so, that exceeds the RD capacity by 3 teeth
so, then figure what largest cog you can away with using while on the large ring to fall within the RD capacity
24-13t = 11
16+11= 27...within the RD capacity
so, set the chain length while on the 24t cog and largest ring. never shift to the 28t cog while on the largest ring you're safe
When I was looking at threads in the forum for information to find what size derailleurs I own by cage length, I learned that Shimano's approach was that road bikes had short cage and long road cage (s, and gs) and mountain derailleurs used short mountain and long cage (gs, and sgs). Short cage wasn't marketed for ATB, and long cage wasn't marketed for road, both had "mid cage" variants meant to handle the cassette gearing for your 12-28 rear cassette/freewheel.
#21
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I would say even within the 70's... The difference between my previous bike with a Suntour GT (long cage, but heavy steel and low end) and my current bikes with first-gen Cyclone GT and Blue Line GT are night and day. The Cyclone and Blue Line still represent some of the best friction shifting available, I would imagine, especially when coupled to modern ramped rear cassettes and freewheels. When compared to my other bike with a Microshift Centos short cage in friction mode, I could not perceive a difference.
My main point, I guess, is that there haven't been any performance-based reasons to stick with short-cage derailleurs for a long time. Just vanity remains at this point (which I will admit to on one bike.)
#22
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Very true, I didn't give enough credit to some of the excellent derailleurs of the 1970s.
My main point, I guess, is that there haven't been any performance-based reasons to stick with short-cage derailleurs for a long time. Just vanity remains at this point (which I will admit to on one bike.)
My main point, I guess, is that there haven't been any performance-based reasons to stick with short-cage derailleurs for a long time. Just vanity remains at this point (which I will admit to on one bike.)
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#23
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And smaller cogs than the other fellows.
#24
verktyg
Advertised RD Freewheel Capacities
Advertised rear derailleur freewheel capacities for the most part were just that - the largest capacity freewheel that would work on the average bike without any (or much) trial and error adjustments.
Suntour V and V-Luxe short arm derailleurs were rated at a maximum 24T rear sprocket but back in the 70's they could handle 26T on any bike no problem - but that was the maximum.
Most of our casual rider customers wanted an RD to replace the Simplex Prestige or Huret Allvit that came on their bikes. They needed to handle "Alpine Gearing" - 10 speeds with a 14-28T FW and 52-42T or 52-40T chainrings.
The mid length Suntour VT would have been perfect but they weren't readily available so we had to use the the long arm VGT derailleurs with an overkill 34T FW capacity. They worked great, never a complaint.
BTW, Suntour V and V-Luxe RDs sold for $6.00 while the VGT RDs were $7.00-$8.00. Campy NRs sold for about $29.00 at the time.
Suntour Cyclones, there were at least 3 different versions of the original Suntour Cyclone RDs. The first one that came out in early 1975 could handle a maximum of 26T but was rated at 24T. The other two were rated at 24T and that was the maximum they could handle.
Suntour listed 3 different Horizontal Dropout Hanger Lengths: 24mm, 26mm, 28mm plus 30mm for their Vertical Dropouts. See chart below.
Variations in the Hanger Length gave different RD capacities plus many other makes and models of rear dropouts had unpublished lengths.
Throw all those things together and you'll get variations that don't match any published specs.
In June 1975 I got 2 sets from the first shipment of Suntour Cyclones to hit the US. They first appeared as vaporware in the trade rags in the fall of 1974.
I put one set on my then all Campy bike running a 13-26T 5 speed FW. It worked perfectly out of the box. The only issue was the hookie 1st generation Cyclone shift levers. Once I did modifications they worked fine too.
I still have the other set NIB!
I ran the first ones on 3 different bikes over the years. Late one afternoon as I was climbing up a short grade to finish my ride, some guy on a zoomie plastic bike passed me.
I threw it into my lowest gear - 26T x 45T to chase him down and the bike came to a sickening sliding stop. I'd sucked my all time favorite derailleur! The cage, the parallelogram and the mounting bolt broke. The derailleur hanger was bent in at 45°.
First time I'd sucked a RD since maybe 1973, a Simplex Prestige on a Gitane Gran Sport!
verktyg
Suntour V and V-Luxe short arm derailleurs were rated at a maximum 24T rear sprocket but back in the 70's they could handle 26T on any bike no problem - but that was the maximum.
Most of our casual rider customers wanted an RD to replace the Simplex Prestige or Huret Allvit that came on their bikes. They needed to handle "Alpine Gearing" - 10 speeds with a 14-28T FW and 52-42T or 52-40T chainrings.
The mid length Suntour VT would have been perfect but they weren't readily available so we had to use the the long arm VGT derailleurs with an overkill 34T FW capacity. They worked great, never a complaint.
BTW, Suntour V and V-Luxe RDs sold for $6.00 while the VGT RDs were $7.00-$8.00. Campy NRs sold for about $29.00 at the time.
Suntour Cyclones, there were at least 3 different versions of the original Suntour Cyclone RDs. The first one that came out in early 1975 could handle a maximum of 26T but was rated at 24T. The other two were rated at 24T and that was the maximum they could handle.
Suntour listed 3 different Horizontal Dropout Hanger Lengths: 24mm, 26mm, 28mm plus 30mm for their Vertical Dropouts. See chart below.
Variations in the Hanger Length gave different RD capacities plus many other makes and models of rear dropouts had unpublished lengths.
Throw all those things together and you'll get variations that don't match any published specs.
In June 1975 I got 2 sets from the first shipment of Suntour Cyclones to hit the US. They first appeared as vaporware in the trade rags in the fall of 1974.
I put one set on my then all Campy bike running a 13-26T 5 speed FW. It worked perfectly out of the box. The only issue was the hookie 1st generation Cyclone shift levers. Once I did modifications they worked fine too.
I still have the other set NIB!
I ran the first ones on 3 different bikes over the years. Late one afternoon as I was climbing up a short grade to finish my ride, some guy on a zoomie plastic bike passed me.
I threw it into my lowest gear - 26T x 45T to chase him down and the bike came to a sickening sliding stop. I'd sucked my all time favorite derailleur! The cage, the parallelogram and the mounting bolt broke. The derailleur hanger was bent in at 45°.
First time I'd sucked a RD since maybe 1973, a Simplex Prestige on a Gitane Gran Sport!
verktyg
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
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Don't believe everything you think! History is written by those who weren't there....
Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 08-20-19 at 11:59 PM.
#25
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Suntour VX-S
So, how does the Suntour VX rate when compared to the Cyclone, V, and others. A member here sold it for a nice price. It is well spoken of on Desraili Gears too. It shifts wonderfully for me even with 7 sprockets, and took no effort to set up. I am very pleased, and the S version I have seems very accommodating to different setups. Do I remember reading that the VX is simply the V with the open jockey wheel cage?