25mm vs 32mm tires, unscientific testing
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
In the OP he said it was the same clothing and same position. He didn't mention wind unless I missed it, this seems like an honest attempt so I think it's safe to assume if there had been a notable difference he would have noted it.
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
Again, the biggest factor is power. Feeling like output/effort is the same is just a feeling. It may or may not have anything to do with actuality. That's the crux of my post.
For some reason someone felt compelled to go off on a tangent about it.
#28
Occam's Rotor
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
By far the simplest explanation for why all the reported numbers are the same is that the width of the tires doesn't make a significant difference.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
I don't own a power meter. I do understand the significance. What I don't buy is your implicit argument that the power outputs differ enough from each other and the estimates to exactly compensate for the differences in the tires so that, by magical coincidence, everything that is measured is nearly the same.
By far the simplest explanation for why all the reported numbers are the same is that the width of the tires doesn't make a significant difference.
By far the simplest explanation for why all the reported numbers are the same is that the width of the tires doesn't make a significant difference.
Clearly you don't. Thanks for the confirmation.
#30
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,593
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3917 Post(s)
Liked 1,969 Times
in
1,405 Posts
No they're not.
Those tires could be 30 watts slower and he simply put out 30 watts more to make up for the difference. You have no idea. Neither does he.
"Unmeasured differences that are unknown." Yeah. That's the point.
Again, if you don't understand what a power meter does, this is a pointless tangent.
Those tires could be 30 watts slower and he simply put out 30 watts more to make up for the difference. You have no idea. Neither does he.
"Unmeasured differences that are unknown." Yeah. That's the point.
Again, if you don't understand what a power meter does, this is a pointless tangent.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Valley Forge: Birthplace of Freedom
Posts: 1,301
Bikes: Novara Safari, CAAD9, WABI Classic, WABI Thunder
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 366 Post(s)
Liked 459 Times
in
240 Posts
As a definitive non-roadie, some of you commenting on this thread are re-inforcing the "roadies are tools" reputation.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times
in
569 Posts
Better test than in the other thread comparing new & old bikes,
& seeming to come up with near same speeds in spite of getting off & pushing the old bike up some hills on the test loop.
& seeming to come up with near same speeds in spite of getting off & pushing the old bike up some hills on the test loop.
#33
Occam's Rotor
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
The average cadence is also the same, so we do have an idea whether the OP was pushing harder, independent of speed and estimated power.
Discounting it with special pleading and appeals to unmeasured differences isn't compelling.
Discounting it with special pleading and appeals to unmeasured differences isn't compelling.
#34
Senior Member
It doesn't have to be a magical coincidence, particularly as a .3mph difference is not "nearly the same" considering the sorts of things that the thread is discussing. If I do "the same ride" on two different road bikes (or on the same road bike) on similar days at a similar fitness level, it's not terribly uncommon for me to see numbers within .3mph; it's also not terribly uncommon to see differences larger than that. I don't think it says much of anything.
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
Sure, but it's yet another example of an unmeasured variable that may or may not impact how hard he was pedaling at various sections of the ride.
Again, the biggest factor is power. Feeling like output/effort is the same is just a feeling. It may or may not have anything to do with actuality. That's the crux of my post.
For some reason someone felt compelled to go off on a tangent about it.
Again, the biggest factor is power. Feeling like output/effort is the same is just a feeling. It may or may not have anything to do with actuality. That's the crux of my post.
For some reason someone felt compelled to go off on a tangent about it.
My personal take is that this definitely suggests tire size has a very minimal impact on speed. It's obviously not proof. (For the record, another variable is that different size tires were used on the same wheels; it's well known that the interface between tire and rim affects aerodynamics. We don't know how far each tire size was from ideal for those rims.)
@wgscott has been sharing a lot of detail about how RNA works, efforts personally undertaken to keep it stable in the lab, etc. I would defer to @RChung in matters of power, use or measurement, because the guy clearly knows a lot more about it than I do. And I'd defer to @wgscott about matters of science, including what counts as science.
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,646 Times
in
6,054 Posts
This is correct. The Strava estimated power is meaningless, being based solely on speed, as you said earlier. He could have had a brake dragging on one test, Strava would say power was the same. That said, a quick trip over to BRR says that at the same comfort level, i.e. 4.5mm drop for both tires, RR is .1 w less for the 32 per tire. At recommended pressures, 15% drop, it's .7w higher for the 32, per tire. There's also the aero component. If someone wants to do the calculation we could see the theoretical time difference. The OP doesn't mention tire pressures, a significant omission. And all that said, these are pretty neat tires. I haven't gotten cut #1 yet on our tandem.
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,038
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3998 Post(s)
Liked 7,489 Times
in
3,013 Posts
And I'd defer to @wgscott about matters of science, including what counts as science.
Likes For tomato coupe:
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
Nope. That the average speed and average cadence are similar does not mean that the power/resistance is similar. With the same gearing, cadence, and speed, I could be soft pedaling with a tailwind or busting my ass into a headwind.
#39
Senior Member
When I was a young lad, the main streets in town were paved, but the side streets were gravel. The U.S. and state highways were paved, but most of the county routes, National Forest roads and the roads on the Bad River Reservation were gravel. Every summer, in town they would spray the gravel streets with waste oil (petroleum, not cooking oil) to keep the dust down. I bet they don't do that anymore.
I was born in AZ but actually grew up in Massachusetts in one of these smaller bedroom communities. My street was narrow enough that it didn't have lines marking lanes. They painted lines on it once but it just wasn't wide enough so the next time they "re-paved" it the lines were gone and never replaced. Repaving consisted of spraying down some oil on the street and then covering it with sand and very fine gravel. Whatever stuck was the new road surface.
The problem with the road surfaces where I'm at now is just that I live at the edge of civilization here in the valley. I can ride just 3-5 miles in one direction and be in the middle of town with decent roads and whatnot, or 3-5 miles in the other direction and be in the middle of the desert. Some of the little side roads like the one leading from the back of my housing community out to a more main road haven't been repaved in many years and are just absolutely horrible for a bike. If all the roads were like that I'd just stick to mountain biking, because it's annoying as hell when my routes take me on roads like this. I could get where I'm going and avoid some of these roads but the alternative is some 4- or 5-lane north/south or east/west artery road with craploads of cars doing 60mph in a 45mph zone and all I have is a little 18-20" margin to the right of the white line. So my main routes are mostly crafted with getting the mileage I want without getting annihilated on some of the main drags, though to get longer mileage eventually I've got to do some time on some of the larger roads too. For me, riding with the fatter tires (fat only compared to traditional road cycling) is a no-brainer. The 32mm tires I've been riding have been way nicer on these crappy stretches of road than 25mm or even 28mm were. I've been thinking for a while that I wanted to try out the 35mm version of the Rene Herse tires in the rear on my bike, and it arrives on Friday. First thing I do once I mount it will be to ride out the back of my housing area onto this awful stretch of road and test it out. I'll probably start with a pressure of 5psi less than I've been using in the 32mm version and see how it goes.
#40
Occam's Rotor
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
Perhaps, but it might be more compelling if you leave me out of it and focus on why the the presumed numerical values of data not reported are somehow more convincing than the numbers that have been reported.
#41
Occam's Rotor
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
Remember, I am arguing against the assertion that the report it useless.
Neither the OP or I have argued that it is definitive. (I personally think there is a bit more to it that the OP allows.)
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
No. Again, speed and cadence being the same doesn't mean that effort is the same. If you're in your 50/17 combo, spinning at 90 rpm, you're going to be going the same speed regardless of whether you're on billiard table flat road or if you're going up a 3% grade. The efforts will be wildly different, but the speed will still be the same for the same gearing and the same cadence. So the fact that the speed and cadence is similar strongly suggests that the gearing is similar, but it still doesn't give us anything that we really want to know. What we want to know is whether one is faster. Faster = less resistance, be it rolling resistance, drag or suspension losses. There could easily be a 20w difference between these efforts and a power meter would show that.
#43
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,038
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3998 Post(s)
Liked 7,489 Times
in
3,013 Posts
What is the single biggest factor that determines the speed of a bicycle (on flat ground)?
Likes For tomato coupe:
#44
Senior Member
Yes, we would have to know that the gearing used was similar as well. What we are seeing is that for every value that is reported, the numbers are quite similar.
Remember, I am arguing against the assertion that the report it useless.
Neither the OP or I have argued that it is definitive. (I personally think there is a bit more to it that the OP allows.)
Remember, I am arguing against the assertion that the report it useless.
Neither the OP or I have argued that it is definitive. (I personally think there is a bit more to it that the OP allows.)
Yeah, I wish the OP had a power meter too. I'd like to see that data if he had it. I went with 32mm tires around 3000 miles ago, so one could argue that my liking this OP is just confirmation bias, but in reality I have my own data from those 3000 miles. My own riding data were generated under non-rigorous conditions with many uncontrolled variables, so there's lots of noise, but the takeaway for me is that if there was a speed penalty to me from going to 32mm, the signal/noise ratio of any potential difference in my own performance is too low to be detectable. And that's "good enough" for me. Given the roads I ride on the comfort benefits are immediately and profoundly noticeable, and if there's no discernable performance penalty, that's a win/win in my book.
Likes For SethAZ:
#45
Senior Member
Likes For Tacoenthusiast:
#46
Occam's Rotor
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 7,248
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 2,331 Times
in
1,164 Posts
What I am saying is that in the data that is actually posted, there is no trace of an indication that this is the case, which would be rather peculiar if it were the case.
Also, I am saying what the OP observed is consistent with previously-reported, well-controlled experiments, so taking the numbers you actually see at face value isn't quite as idiotic as some here have suggested.
Can you or anyone point me to a similar comparison where all of the metrics reported in the OP were nearly identical, but where the power meter readings differed significantly?
Last edited by Cyclist0108; 06-03-20 at 07:21 PM.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: TC, MN
Posts: 39,520
Bikes: R3 Disc, Haanjo
Mentioned: 354 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20810 Post(s)
Liked 9,456 Times
in
4,672 Posts
How fast will you be going in 50/17 when pedaling at 90 rpm on flat ground?
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Richfield, WI
Posts: 723
Bikes: Trek Domane SL7 Disc, Cannondale F29
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 391 Post(s)
Liked 325 Times
in
186 Posts
Thanks for the post, @Rides4Beer! While perhaps not "scientific" enough for some, I think your test at least shows there isn't a radical deference between the two tires as I'd think your data would've shown that. For every day riders where every second doesn't count, it's good to know that a wider tire isn't the end of the world.
My previous bike was a Trek Domane with 25mm tires and my new Domane as of this Spring has 32mm tires. The roads in Wisconsin can be quite awful due to the freeze/thaw cycle, so even though the 32mm tires make me feel like I'm riding a mountain bike, they help cushion the blow of all the potholes! The 32mm tires are mounted on 25mm internal width rims (i.e., a pretty wide rim). While the whole setup is hardly light, the bike literally feels like it's on rails when doing fast, twisty descents.
My previous bike was a Trek Domane with 25mm tires and my new Domane as of this Spring has 32mm tires. The roads in Wisconsin can be quite awful due to the freeze/thaw cycle, so even though the 32mm tires make me feel like I'm riding a mountain bike, they help cushion the blow of all the potholes! The 32mm tires are mounted on 25mm internal width rims (i.e., a pretty wide rim). While the whole setup is hardly light, the bike literally feels like it's on rails when doing fast, twisty descents.
Likes For PoorInRichfield:
#49
Non omnino gravis
I've no idea if it's significant, but this is two rides over the exact same route in virtually identical conditions, with no changes to setup or equipment.
I was testing riding strictly by RPE, and the side on the right felt easier, but I actually worked harder to go slower.
The differences between the two rides are similar to what the OP had shown in his two rides-- which is enough for me to agree that without power, we can
never know if the two efforts came down to tires-- just as I can't say for certain what accounted for my 69 seconds.
I was testing riding strictly by RPE, and the side on the right felt easier, but I actually worked harder to go slower.
The differences between the two rides are similar to what the OP had shown in his two rides-- which is enough for me to agree that without power, we can
never know if the two efforts came down to tires-- just as I can't say for certain what accounted for my 69 seconds.
Likes For DrIsotope:
#50
Senior Member
I also just wanted to say that I'm also impressed at the OP's data simply because he's doing a fast cruise at 22.5 or 22.8mph, while my threshold cruise for an hour or so under ideal conditions on flat ground is about 20mph, and I probably couldn't maintain that for two hours. I aspire to be able to just duplicate his test one of these days.
Likes For SethAZ: