Steel is real . . . breakable
#26
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Is it actually a proven fix, to weld right adjacent to the brass braze like that? I've always told people it was a bad idea, because the copper and zinc and other stuff in the brass would vaporize and make your weld all frothy and brittle. Have I been handing out misinformation? I'll admit my evidence that "it's bad" is limited to maybe one or two welds I saw that looked frothy and brittle due to brass in the vicinity, but I didn't do any testing on the welds to see if they were actually sound. That and getting the same advice from one or two old heads who also stated it as if it were a rule. (Confirmation bias, didn't question it because it was what I already believed.)
So I will bow to anyone with actual experience doing this, if you tell me it was reliable afterward. Oh and I guess I'll have to apologize to all the people I misinformed, talking as if I knew something.
Is it because that small amount of brass is just insignificant in a big 'ol MIG weld? Is there any special trick to making it successful?
A couple quotations come to mind, though I don't know who originated them:
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
"It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." (Before you say it's Mark Twain, know that at least some Twain researchers have found no evidence of it. But it could still be him.)
So I will bow to anyone with actual experience doing this, if you tell me it was reliable afterward. Oh and I guess I'll have to apologize to all the people I misinformed, talking as if I knew something.
Is it because that small amount of brass is just insignificant in a big 'ol MIG weld? Is there any special trick to making it successful?
A couple quotations come to mind, though I don't know who originated them:
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
"It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." (Before you say it's Mark Twain, know that at least some Twain researchers have found no evidence of it. But it could still be him.)
Not at all! I've just got a couple friends who ride Breezer Uptowns, and I've repaired them so I've handled them quite a bit. I've picked them up, front end and back end, and I feel like they are pretty heavy on both ends! But in Joe Breeze's defense, for a long time the Breezer was the only affordable thing you could get, from factory, with fenders, racks, and lights - at least in this country. Sure, we have Workcycles and other niche manufacturers, but they are quite costly. Jan Heine did a review of some kind of Breezer Uptown in an early BQ (back when it was VBQ). One of his critiques was that it was too heavy, if I recall correctly. The response from Joe Breeze was something like "you try making an affordable, full-featured commuter for under $1000 and see if you can do better on weight!" I agree with that.
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Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
Last edited by scarlson; 02-13-22 at 12:59 PM.
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#27
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I've cut out the pieces but haven't started welding yet. Figured I'd TIG weld it since I have one, but it's amazing to watch Jer weld his with MIG, so damn fast. A good MIG welder is a chunk of change though, would make my new belt grinder very expensive! I'm afraid I wouldn't use it enough after the grinder build to make it pay for itself.
Anyway, thanks for educating me.
Mark B
Last edited by bulgie; 02-13-22 at 05:19 PM.
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#29
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Won't help. I broke a 1973 UO-8 frame at the other end of the drive side chainstay, between the tire and chainring clearance dimples.
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"Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing." --Theodore Roosevelt
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#31
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Is it actually a proven fix, to weld right adjacent to the brass braze like that? I've always told people it was a bad idea, because the copper and zinc and other stuff in the brass would vaporize and make your weld all frothy and brittle. Have I been handing out misinformation? I'll admit my evidence that "it's bad" is limited to maybe one or two welds I saw that looked frothy and brittle due to brass in the vicinity, but I didn't do any testing on the welds to see if they were actually sound. That and getting the same advice from one or two old heads who also stated it as if it were a rule. (Confirmation bias, didn't question it because it was what I already believed.)
So I will bow to anyone with actual experience doing this, if you tell me it was reliable afterward. Oh and I guess I'll have to apologize to all the people I misinformed, talking as if I knew something.
Is it because that small amount of brass is just insignificant in a big 'ol MIG weld? Is there any special trick to making it successful?
A couple quotations come to mind, though I don't know who originated them:
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
"It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." (Before you say it's Mark Twain, know that at least some Twain researchers have found no evidence of it. But it could still be him.)
So I will bow to anyone with actual experience doing this, if you tell me it was reliable afterward. Oh and I guess I'll have to apologize to all the people I misinformed, talking as if I knew something.
Is it because that small amount of brass is just insignificant in a big 'ol MIG weld? Is there any special trick to making it successful?
A couple quotations come to mind, though I don't know who originated them:
"People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it."
"It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." (Before you say it's Mark Twain, know that at least some Twain researchers have found no evidence of it. But it could still be him.)
#32
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I wouldn't expect any help but would jump on the opportunity to ring the question the quality bell, giving some corporate shill the chance to do the right thing.
I would rather have a frame fixed by an accomplished craftsman than a suspect replacement from the company that didn't get it right the first time around.
?
I would rather have a frame fixed by an accomplished craftsman than a suspect replacement from the company that didn't get it right the first time around.
?
I do see assumptions that appear to be baseless given the information contained in the thread.
We have no way of knowing if “the right thing” is to provide a replacement or tell the owner to go jump in a lake.
We have no way of knowing if the company “didn’t get it right the first time.”
We don’t know if a “corporate shill” would be assigned to the situation, or even if there are any corporate shills there, just waiting for a chance to “do the right thing,” however that’s defined.
Weep holes in frames get plugged. Moisture collects inside.
Salt and other corrosives can accelerate the deterioration, and the frame can fail.
Or, the frame could be defective. Or even something else!
Statistically, one is more likely to occur than the other.
Prior to actually seeing what caused it, assumptions are like the people making them.
Often inaccurate.
Last edited by bamboobike4; 02-17-22 at 11:12 PM.
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#35
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I've long believed that the flexing of poorly-supported freewheel-hub axles is what causes most of these dropout failures.
#36
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I was just about to post this when I saw you'd said the same. I'd been thinking it on the ride back from the shop, from welding this. Maybe the bike shop that sold the VO wheel wasn't that crazy after all. Maybe the axle of the original wheel was broken or badly bent, and that's the problem they fixed! It explains why they'd miss the frame being broken, too. The thing probably felt a good deal more solid after replacing the wheel.
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Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
#37
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Pic cause, you know...
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#38
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@scarlson has done the deed!
Mark B
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#41
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Thanks for all the accolades!!
I did a lot of grinding and filing to get it to look like that. As usual, I was way too involved in the job to get any pictures of the process. I'm sorry!
I taught myself to weld back in the day mainly by reading pipefitters' training documentation. It pretty neatly translates over to dropouts: thick steel, welded in multiple passes. There's a lot of concern with getting the right sort of v-groove, and then they do a whole routine of "weld, grind, repeat". That's what I did here, but it's a little less extreme because this stuff isn't so thick!
I just hope it holds together! A well-aligned dropout will go a long ways. When I was done welding, the dropouts were spaced funny (of course). Neal will have to spread the frame and re-align before all's said and done.
I did a lot of grinding and filing to get it to look like that. As usual, I was way too involved in the job to get any pictures of the process. I'm sorry!
I taught myself to weld back in the day mainly by reading pipefitters' training documentation. It pretty neatly translates over to dropouts: thick steel, welded in multiple passes. There's a lot of concern with getting the right sort of v-groove, and then they do a whole routine of "weld, grind, repeat". That's what I did here, but it's a little less extreme because this stuff isn't so thick!
I just hope it holds together! A well-aligned dropout will go a long ways. When I was done welding, the dropouts were spaced funny (of course). Neal will have to spread the frame and re-align before all's said and done.
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Owner & co-founder, Cycles René Hubris. Unfortunately attaching questionable braze-ons to perfectly good frames since about 2015. With style.
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#42
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All respaced and realigned. I’ll finish assembly tomorrow most likely.
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#43
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HMMM, I have a older but nice Fuji 7spd Beach Cruiser frame that has broken at the drive side DO, I thought the rear wheel hub bearings were shot when I got it cause you could feel the wobble without riding it. Upon tear down I found that where the DO fits in the chain stay Slot the front didn't get brazed very good and popped but the backside was brazed good but caused the chain stay to snap. Looking at the bike you would never have seen it all looked good. I saved the frame and parts and was hoping a good friend who is a master with a torch could braze it back together for me. Last spring I picked up a new Mig setup with a spool gun and a plasma cutter, I set the mig up flux core but have since got a bottle for it. I haven't even tried the mig out yet only the plasma cutter but I wonder if I should give it a try After I learn the machine, if it works great if not it's not a big loss.
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Glenn
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Thanks for all the accolades!!
I did a lot of grinding and filing to get it to look like that. As usual, I was way too involved in the job to get any pictures of the process. I'm sorry!
I taught myself to weld back in the day mainly by reading pipefitters' training documentation. It pretty neatly translates over to dropouts: thick steel, welded in multiple passes. There's a lot of concern with getting the right sort of v-groove, and then they do a whole routine of "weld, grind, repeat". That's what I did here, but it's a little less extreme because this stuff isn't so thick!
I just hope it holds together! A well-aligned dropout will go a long ways. When I was done welding, the dropouts were spaced funny (of course). Neal will have to spread the frame and re-align before all's said and done.
I did a lot of grinding and filing to get it to look like that. As usual, I was way too involved in the job to get any pictures of the process. I'm sorry!
I taught myself to weld back in the day mainly by reading pipefitters' training documentation. It pretty neatly translates over to dropouts: thick steel, welded in multiple passes. There's a lot of concern with getting the right sort of v-groove, and then they do a whole routine of "weld, grind, repeat". That's what I did here, but it's a little less extreme because this stuff isn't so thick!
I just hope it holds together! A well-aligned dropout will go a long ways. When I was done welding, the dropouts were spaced funny (of course). Neal will have to spread the frame and re-align before all's said and done.
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#45
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Nice looking job on the repair. Many years ago in the Navy I worked with the guys who did all the welding and brazing on the ship (they always called brazing "sweating" - not sure if same technique) and I have always regretted not picking up their mad skillz during those long underway times.
Knock on wood, I have never been able to generate enough wattage to break a frame component although one time I snapped a chain. I am immensely proud of that.
Knock on wood, I have never been able to generate enough wattage to break a frame component although one time I snapped a chain. I am immensely proud of that.
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#46
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That's definitely the big point I've got out of this thread. They didn't bother to check the frame, given the customer complaint? Obviously, they're in the business to sell parts.
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#47
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So, the morale of the story is...
Steel is real...repairable.
Steel is real...repairable.
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If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
If someone tells you that you have enough bicycles and you don't need any more, stop talking to them. You don't need that kind of negativity in your life.
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But what makes them (to steal a term from above) stoo-pid is that they're also in the business to sell bikes. A smart shop would have found the break, and made it abundantly clear that it would be impossible to repair an "old" frame that's broken in that way, and that today's bikes with their modern materials would never break in that way, blah blah blah, and parleyed it into a bike sale.
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