Suggestions to keep up on the hills?
#26
Zen Master
I didn't read everything above, but from the photo I'll ask the following:
Have you had a proper and full bike fit?
Have you had a proper and full bike fit?
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Ron - Tucson, AZ
Ron - Tucson, AZ
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#27
OM boy
OP, as noted by many, there must be some diff. in your weight to the guyz you're comparing with.
Power relative to what is being lifted.
as Trakhak noted, starting in the front and slowly drifting back through the group is a long used plan to get thru climbs where you're 'close', but not quite at the level of those you're with.
As for HR, yes, it can vary for each individual over the range of effort; but ultimately once in the higher reaches, HR levels and limits are fairly equal.
Once in the mid-high 170's and 180s' the vast majority of 'fit' cyclists are redlining... age , fitness, efficiency all to be considered.
There are so many things which impact watts/kg, including and very important, is how well/much O2, your VO2, you can process is a key indicator.
https://theconversation.com/the-scie...-12-to-21-2063
A lot of these indicators can only be reasonably measured in-lab, and are at best, estimates from other markers.
IE - I would do on-road AT tests 3-4 times a year, and vary the test method to make sure I wasn't mindset into 'method' and outcome.
A 1X testing of AT/LT is really not worth much...
lotta good comments from all on things to consider.
how fast you go up any hill, depends on what you can do to maximize advantages and minimize loses.
you know the 'rides' on which all this transpires... why not get out there and try different approaches to 'riding' those sections?
170 lbers can be good climbers, they're just gonna work quite a bit harder...
Ride On
Yuri
Power relative to what is being lifted.
as Trakhak noted, starting in the front and slowly drifting back through the group is a long used plan to get thru climbs where you're 'close', but not quite at the level of those you're with.
As for HR, yes, it can vary for each individual over the range of effort; but ultimately once in the higher reaches, HR levels and limits are fairly equal.
Once in the mid-high 170's and 180s' the vast majority of 'fit' cyclists are redlining... age , fitness, efficiency all to be considered.
There are so many things which impact watts/kg, including and very important, is how well/much O2, your VO2, you can process is a key indicator.
https://theconversation.com/the-scie...-12-to-21-2063
A lot of these indicators can only be reasonably measured in-lab, and are at best, estimates from other markers.
IE - I would do on-road AT tests 3-4 times a year, and vary the test method to make sure I wasn't mindset into 'method' and outcome.
A 1X testing of AT/LT is really not worth much...
lotta good comments from all on things to consider.
how fast you go up any hill, depends on what you can do to maximize advantages and minimize loses.
you know the 'rides' on which all this transpires... why not get out there and try different approaches to 'riding' those sections?
170 lbers can be good climbers, they're just gonna work quite a bit harder...
Ride On
Yuri
#28
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Is that you on the bike in the pic? Can't really say from the pic, but is your saddle too low and too far back? I climb hills in my saddle and do best when in the drops. I also am pedaling a cadence in the 80 - 90 rpm range when I do them at my best effort. Not saying I'm great at it, but I'm not shabby either.
How is your speed coming into the hill? If your group gets bunched up going into the start of the climb and you are at the rear and have to slow down for that, then you'll spend a lot of energy just trying to accelerate back to the speed you had before it bled off.
How is your speed coming into the hill? If your group gets bunched up going into the start of the climb and you are at the rear and have to slow down for that, then you'll spend a lot of energy just trying to accelerate back to the speed you had before it bled off.
#29
Senior Member
Another thought - make sure your bearings and brakes are properly in-tune. I imagine, on flats, you're probably cruising at much less than peak power, so a little bit of extra crunchiness in your BB or wheel bearings, or a little bit of drag on your discs, might go unnoticed from a performance perspective - ie, you can keep up with everyone else with just a little more power. Once you start hitting those half mile climbs, an extra bit of drag will slow you down. Making sure everything is clean, aligned, properly lubricated and adjusted can go a long way. You may even have wheel-rub on the frame. I know that the OEM tire that came on my Lynskey was actually too wide for the frame in that it would rub against the chainstay when I put down some bigger efforts (read: going uphill). Putting a tire on that fit properly saved me 5 mins over my PR (set the previous week) on a 49mi ride.
#30
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speaking as a bigger rider (6'3", 185lbs), to keep up with folks who can climb, you're gonna need to put down in the high 200s or low 300s average power to make up for the weight. ~.5 mph difference is all weight, even just a few pounds.
this is a clue to your fitness, and where to focus. (over/unders, sweet spot, threshold intervals)
I spent the ride spiking up the hills and then catching up to the draft then resting then repeating on the next hill until I am eventually dropped.
this is a clue to your fitness, and where to focus. (over/unders, sweet spot, threshold intervals)
#31
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Background: Im 34 not naturally fit especially poor aerobic tolerance and a demanding job. Ive been cycling more regularly for two years now. Maybe 4 months of regular training last year but lots of zwift and solo rides otherwise. This year Im getting back into regular training. FTP is somewhere between 210 and 230 is my best estimate but when I do workouts I can usually complete trainerroad with a setting of 230 ftp with minimal incompletes.
And above all else, keep riding. Good luck--
#32
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"Suggestions to keep up on the hills?"
Careful choice of grandparents.
Careful choice of grandparents.
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"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
#33
Senior Member
OP, as noted by many, there must be some diff. in your weight to the guyz you're comparing with.
Power relative to what is being lifted.
as Trakhak noted, starting in the front and slowly drifting back through the group is a long used plan to get thru climbs where you're 'close', but not quite at the level of those you're with.
As for HR, yes, it can vary for each individual over the range of effort; but ultimately once in the higher reaches, HR levels and limits are fairly equal.
Once in the mid-high 170's and 180s' the vast majority of 'fit' cyclists are redlining... age , fitness, efficiency all to be considered.
There are so many things which impact watts/kg, including and very important, is how well/much O2, your VO2, you can process is a key indicator.
https://theconversation.com/the-scie...-12-to-21-2063
A lot of these indicators can only be reasonably measured in-lab, and are at best, estimates from other markers.
IE - I would do on-road AT tests 3-4 times a year, and vary the test method to make sure I wasn't mindset into 'method' and outcome.
A 1X testing of AT/LT is really not worth much...
lotta good comments from all on things to consider.
how fast you go up any hill, depends on what you can do to maximize advantages and minimize loses.
you know the 'rides' on which all this transpires... why not get out there and try different approaches to 'riding' those sections?
170 lbers can be good climbers, they're just gonna work quite a bit harder...
Ride On
Yuri
Power relative to what is being lifted.
as Trakhak noted, starting in the front and slowly drifting back through the group is a long used plan to get thru climbs where you're 'close', but not quite at the level of those you're with.
As for HR, yes, it can vary for each individual over the range of effort; but ultimately once in the higher reaches, HR levels and limits are fairly equal.
Once in the mid-high 170's and 180s' the vast majority of 'fit' cyclists are redlining... age , fitness, efficiency all to be considered.
There are so many things which impact watts/kg, including and very important, is how well/much O2, your VO2, you can process is a key indicator.
https://theconversation.com/the-scie...-12-to-21-2063
A lot of these indicators can only be reasonably measured in-lab, and are at best, estimates from other markers.
IE - I would do on-road AT tests 3-4 times a year, and vary the test method to make sure I wasn't mindset into 'method' and outcome.
A 1X testing of AT/LT is really not worth much...
lotta good comments from all on things to consider.
how fast you go up any hill, depends on what you can do to maximize advantages and minimize loses.
you know the 'rides' on which all this transpires... why not get out there and try different approaches to 'riding' those sections?
170 lbers can be good climbers, they're just gonna work quite a bit harder...
Ride On
Yuri
Regardless of how fit or unfit they are.
#34
OP, as noted by many, there must be some diff. in your weight to the guyz you're comparing with.
Power relative to what is being lifted.
as Trakhak noted, starting in the front and slowly drifting back through the group is a long used plan to get thru climbs where you're 'close', but not quite at the level of those you're with.
As for HR, yes, it can vary for each individual over the range of effort; but ultimately once in the higher reaches, HR levels and limits are fairly equal.
Once in the mid-high 170's and 180s' the vast majority of 'fit' cyclists are redlining... age , fitness, efficiency all to be considered.
There are so many things which impact watts/kg, including and very important, is how well/much O2, your VO2, you can process is a key indicator.
https://theconversation.com/the-scie...-12-to-21-2063
A lot of these indicators can only be reasonably measured in-lab, and are at best, estimates from other markers.
IE - I would do on-road AT tests 3-4 times a year, and vary the test method to make sure I wasn't mindset into 'method' and outcome.
A 1X testing of AT/LT is really not worth much...
lotta good comments from all on things to consider.
how fast you go up any hill, depends on what you can do to maximize advantages and minimize loses.
you know the 'rides' on which all this transpires... why not get out there and try different approaches to 'riding' those sections?
170 lbers can be good climbers, they're just gonna work quite a bit harder...
Ride On
Yuri
Power relative to what is being lifted.
as Trakhak noted, starting in the front and slowly drifting back through the group is a long used plan to get thru climbs where you're 'close', but not quite at the level of those you're with.
As for HR, yes, it can vary for each individual over the range of effort; but ultimately once in the higher reaches, HR levels and limits are fairly equal.
Once in the mid-high 170's and 180s' the vast majority of 'fit' cyclists are redlining... age , fitness, efficiency all to be considered.
There are so many things which impact watts/kg, including and very important, is how well/much O2, your VO2, you can process is a key indicator.
https://theconversation.com/the-scie...-12-to-21-2063
A lot of these indicators can only be reasonably measured in-lab, and are at best, estimates from other markers.
IE - I would do on-road AT tests 3-4 times a year, and vary the test method to make sure I wasn't mindset into 'method' and outcome.
A 1X testing of AT/LT is really not worth much...
lotta good comments from all on things to consider.
how fast you go up any hill, depends on what you can do to maximize advantages and minimize loses.
you know the 'rides' on which all this transpires... why not get out there and try different approaches to 'riding' those sections?
170 lbers can be good climbers, they're just gonna work quite a bit harder...
Ride On
Yuri
#35
Word of caution. The following comment comes from a newbie, who would probably be better served by shutting up.
Any chance it could be a bike fit issue? Meaning no disrespect, your probably way past the fitting stage, But to my untrained eye the bike looks a bit small and perhaps it’s inhibiting you from delivering your power? It almost looks like you may not get enough extension in your legs.
ok everyone forgive my ignorance if I’m way off.
Any chance it could be a bike fit issue? Meaning no disrespect, your probably way past the fitting stage, But to my untrained eye the bike looks a bit small and perhaps it’s inhibiting you from delivering your power? It almost looks like you may not get enough extension in your legs.
ok everyone forgive my ignorance if I’m way off.
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#36
Senior Member
A new power meter is not going to get you up the hill faster. Hills don't lie. Your buddies simply have a 6-7% power to weight advantage. Lose 3% of weight and gain 3-4% in anaerobic power and you will stay with them on those hills. Just do some intervals midweek
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#37
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With the OP only claiming to have been riding for maybe a little over two years, this might just be a matter of expecting too much too soon.
More miles more often while riding on their own or with one or two other friends will help them get to where they wish to be more than likely. As will picking some hills and flats or false-flats to go all out on during those rides done outside the big group.
No HR or PM necessary. Though it is nice to be able to document through data the improvement.
More miles more often while riding on their own or with one or two other friends will help them get to where they wish to be more than likely. As will picking some hills and flats or false-flats to go all out on during those rides done outside the big group.
No HR or PM necessary. Though it is nice to be able to document through data the improvement.
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#38
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I will chime in and say that people might be underestimating the power advantage of being light and having a good bike setup. I'm pretty light (135lb race weight) and my bike/position are really optimized. I usually end up doing 50-100W less than my competition over the course of a race.
It's all marginal gains from here, I think. Watts are watts though. If you think you can do it, optimizing your fit (especially your shoe fit + cleats) and training (strength training, intervals etc) can go a very long way.
It's all marginal gains from here, I think. Watts are watts though. If you think you can do it, optimizing your fit (especially your shoe fit + cleats) and training (strength training, intervals etc) can go a very long way.
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#39
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Someone already mentioned, PM reading might be off. I know mine is probably under reading my power, and often on climbs I'm a good 20% lower than the guy right next to me. Yes, I'm slightly lighter, but not 20% lighter, or on a long ride with a group, guys who are the same weight will average 20 watts more than me, and who haven't taken a single pull.
#40
Zen Master
Never heard back to see how the bike fit is, and from the photo, it looks too small, with a saddle possibly too low. A low saddle drops power, especially during seated climbing, by not including the glutes' major kick in the power stroke.
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#41
Senior Member
Id wager a lot of it is not following a wheel as well as others and having choppy bursts of power, drafting matters quite a bit on short or not so steep climbs
#42
This line of reasoning only applies IF the power meter is reading way too high - which is possible, but probably not the most likely explanation - especially as his trainer also indicates the same power output. The OP is really asking why he's losing time while apparently producing more power than his mates (how he produces that power is kind of irrelevant). We need to know how much his mates actually weigh before moving on to other scenarios.
#43
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Ultimately it's about physical strength and aerobic/anaerobic conditioning. Training properly improves these. Training properly isn't fun or easy while doing it but feels better when you see the improvements over time and effort.
Weight to strength ratios are valid but I've seen big riders that are very strong overcome the ratio and gravity while on short climbs...the longer the climb the less the impact and the smaller riders that are also stronger physically and aerobically/anaerobically ride away from the bigger rider.
Numbers are for guidance and they all should be taken into consideration but no one set of numbers dominating all others exclusively.
To improve climbing increase strength to weight ratio, increase aerobic and anaerobic abilities, learn how to climb...in the saddle, when to stand, how long to stand, etc., it matters.
Have fun !
Weight to strength ratios are valid but I've seen big riders that are very strong overcome the ratio and gravity while on short climbs...the longer the climb the less the impact and the smaller riders that are also stronger physically and aerobically/anaerobically ride away from the bigger rider.
Numbers are for guidance and they all should be taken into consideration but no one set of numbers dominating all others exclusively.
To improve climbing increase strength to weight ratio, increase aerobic and anaerobic abilities, learn how to climb...in the saddle, when to stand, how long to stand, etc., it matters.
Have fun !
#44
Zen Master
This line of reasoning only applies IF the power meter is reading way too high - which is possible, but probably not the most likely explanation - especially as his trainer also indicates the same power output. The OP is really asking why he's losing time while apparently producing more power than his mates (how he produces that power is kind of irrelevant). We need to know how much his mates actually weigh before moving on to other scenarios.
"Suggestions to keep up on the hills? So I did a group ride today and had a tremendous amount of difficulty keeping up on the hills."
I suggest he get a bike fit, and make sure his saddle isn't low.
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Ron - Tucson, AZ
Ron - Tucson, AZ
#45
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If the OP is not entering the segment at the same speed as the riders in the other examples provided, then the power values for the segment will be different even if rider weight and all else is the same.
Those entering the segment at a faster speed and completing it with about the same average speed or final speed for the segment will have a lower power for that segment than someone entering the segment at a lower speed that has to accelerate to achieve that same average or final speed for the segment.
If the OP entered the segment at a very slow speed, it's possiblethey he may not even reach the average speed or final speed of the others and still have put out more power than the others that climbed the hill faster.
Those entering the segment at a faster speed and completing it with about the same average speed or final speed for the segment will have a lower power for that segment than someone entering the segment at a lower speed that has to accelerate to achieve that same average or final speed for the segment.
If the OP entered the segment at a very slow speed, it's possible
Last edited by Iride01; 05-18-22 at 10:56 AM. Reason: trying to soothe those that have issues with using normally plural pronouns as a singular reference
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#46
If the OP is not entering the segment at the same speed as the riders in the other examples provided, then the power values for the segment will be different even if rider weight and all else is the same.
Those entering the segment at a faster speed and completing it with about the same average speed or final speed for the segment will have a lower power for that segment than someone entering the segment at a lower speed that has to accelerate to achieve that same average or final speed for the segment.
If the OP entered the segment at a very slow speed, it's possiblethey he may not even reach the average speed or final speed of the others and still have put out more power than the others that climbed the hill faster.
Those entering the segment at a faster speed and completing it with about the same average speed or final speed for the segment will have a lower power for that segment than someone entering the segment at a lower speed that has to accelerate to achieve that same average or final speed for the segment.
If the OP entered the segment at a very slow speed, it's possible
#47
Senior Member
#48
OM boy
If the OP is not entering the segment at the same speed as the riders in the other examples provided, then the power values for the segment will be different even if rider weight and all else is the same.
Those entering the segment at a faster speed and completing it with about the same average speed or final speed for the segment will have a lower power for that segment than someone entering the segment at a lower speed that has to accelerate to achieve that same average or final speed for the segment.
If the OP entered the segment at a very slow speed, it's possiblethey he may not even reach the average speed or final speed of the others and still have put out more power than the others that climbed the hill faster.
Those entering the segment at a faster speed and completing it with about the same average speed or final speed for the segment will have a lower power for that segment than someone entering the segment at a lower speed that has to accelerate to achieve that same average or final speed for the segment.
If the OP entered the segment at a very slow speed, it's possible
but looking at the first charts of all... they all show the same entry levels... and we're talking .5 mile or longer, so not a hump you can big ring over (at 6+%)...
Hill A is .56 mi and is 6% with some steeper sections...
OP - some simple math - Hill A - you're averaging 10ish mph for the climb - quite good for 6% climb ! The other guys are just a hair faster...
stick with it, find you're best combo for gear/cadence. Besides climbing a great way to add power/fitness with limited time is - Intervals - not much fun, but very productive.
Ride On
Yuri
#49
You'll need a different "warm up" for climbs. You wrote you feel effortless on the flats. That's not good for climbs. You'll need to put a bit of effort before a climb. Enough to make you breathe harder but not too hard you start feeling the burn on your legs. Hold that effort for a few minutes before a climb, move closer to the front of the group to get less draft and work your legs harder.
#50
Newbie racer
4w/kg at 75 is 300w
4w/kg at 70 is 280w
That's 20w difference on a very typical group ride difference in weights. Not even likely the largest difference.
I ride with folks sometimes where the difference is going to be more like 10kg's from myself to the largest rider. With that in mind the math becomes:
4w/kg at 70 is 280w
4w/kg at 80 is 320w
A 40w difference.
I'm guessing here several riders are in the 5 to 10kg lighter range.
4w/kg at 70 is 280w
That's 20w difference on a very typical group ride difference in weights. Not even likely the largest difference.
I ride with folks sometimes where the difference is going to be more like 10kg's from myself to the largest rider. With that in mind the math becomes:
4w/kg at 70 is 280w
4w/kg at 80 is 320w
A 40w difference.
I'm guessing here several riders are in the 5 to 10kg lighter range.