So where is the line (limit) on ebikes?
#76
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https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
E-bike regulations in the U.K. do seem silly to me. And frankly, I suspect that the law makers there really don't care much about the issue. The same is true in the U.S., but we just happened to have a bike manufacturers advocacy group that managed to be effective (mostly because most law makers here don't really care much about the issue) I see two reasonable choices. 1) Be an outlaw and skirt the law riding a safe, practical, but technically illegal ebike. 2) Advocate for law changes (posting here is unlikely to help much). These choices are not exclusive of each other.
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Assuming throttles are always used in lieu of pedaling is a mistake. Many riders with arthritis in knees or other health issues use a throttle on take off as pedal assist requires some rotation to begin. Those initial movements can be very hard on older joints. Additionally, as someone who rides in city traffic sometimes (and other times on MUPs where they exist), a throttle can make the difference between being hit by a car or not. Unfortunately my throttle has saved me from being broadsided in intersections by bad drivers more than once. There is no way I could have pedaled out of the way in time; the added boost from the throttle let me clear by enough space so that the driver running the red light didn't hit me. I have no problem with bikes having both pedal assist and throttles - throttle only bikes should be reserved only for disabled riders.
Motorized scooter, use the roads, problem solved.
.
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#78
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You didn't do yourself any favors by suggesting a rear wheel was a fan. That said, many of you points have some validity - even if they are, IMO, a bit exaggerated. Here's a nice article from Grin Electronics that explains in a pretty reasonable way the problems with "motor" ratings. It is also worth noting that power input to a motor is not the same as power output - especially with hub motors since efficiency can easily range from 0-80%. Sending 1000 watts to a direct drive hub motor means that in use it would be very unusual for that motor to ever output more than 750 watts.
https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
E-bike regulations in the U.K. do seem silly to me. And frankly, I suspect that the law makers there really don't care much about the issue. The same is true in the U.S., but we just happened to have a bike manufacturers advocacy group that managed to be effective (mostly because most law makers here don't really care much about the issue) I see two reasonable choices. 1) Be an outlaw and skirt the law riding a safe, practical, but technically illegal ebike. 2) Advocate for law changes (posting here is unlikely to help much). These choices are not exclusive of each other.
https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
E-bike regulations in the U.K. do seem silly to me. And frankly, I suspect that the law makers there really don't care much about the issue. The same is true in the U.S., but we just happened to have a bike manufacturers advocacy group that managed to be effective (mostly because most law makers here don't really care much about the issue) I see two reasonable choices. 1) Be an outlaw and skirt the law riding a safe, practical, but technically illegal ebike. 2) Advocate for law changes (posting here is unlikely to help much). These choices are not exclusive of each other.
#79
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I really don't see how the spinning spokes don't have a cooling effect on the motor. We all know that the spokes are a major cause of drag, the more you have spinning the more drag you have. It's creating a huge amount of air turbulance and the spokes are connected to the hub motor itself. How can it have anything but a cooling effect on the hub motor? I realise devices like hub sinks are more effective but even those rely on the air turbulance caused by the rotating spokes. You are basically forcing hot air away from the area, its creating far faster air flow. I didn't even realise this was in the debatable category as I'm sure I've seen it featured as a selling point on hub motors and just seems so obvious. That's why ferrofluid is beneficial for direct drive hub motors as it allows better heat transfer from the core of the hub motor to the outer hub shell where cooling is so effective.
Spokes are not directing the air towards the motor in the center of the wheel. One way the spokes will help dissipate some heat is through “conduction”. The flange of hub will transfer a small amount of heat to each spoke. Since the cross-section of each spoke is very small, it will only be a very small amount of heat. I’m not sure how efficient are the hub motors but I will be very surprised if they are more than 70% efficient, which would mean that about 30% of the 500W or 1000W (as the case may be) are wasted in generating heat. And that is considerable amount of heat to be dissipated by spokes you fantasize as a fan blowing on the motor. Bulk of it is radiated off the large housing of the motor (hub).
I don’t think you are making much sense… but may be I’m missing something.
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#80
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I really don't see how the spinning spokes don't have a cooling effect on the motor. We all know that the spokes are a major cause of drag, the more you have spinning the more drag you have. It's creating a huge amount of air turbulance and the spokes are connected to the hub motor itself. How can it have anything but a cooling effect on the hub motor?
I realise devices like hub sinks are more effective but even those rely on the air turbulance caused by the rotating spokes. You are basically forcing hot air away from the area, its creating far faster air flow. I didn't even realise this was in the debatable category as I'm sure I've seen it featured as a selling point on hub motors and just seems so obvious.
Right. It is the hub shell shedding heat to the air passing by that matters. And ferrofluid makes that more efficient for exactly the reason you state. Like I said, you do seem to have a good handle on some of these issues. But the spokes aren't doing much to help cool that hub motor. And they aren't acting like a fan.
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As you properly pointed out motors are generally built to their end output requirements. There may be motors that are built to a spectrum of output watts which means the motor is built to the largest output expected but used at a lower wattage. This derating would produce longer lived motors at lower wattage usage. I highly doubt that derated motors are being produced. Every ounce of metal be it copper, steel or some other costs money and this industry is about profits. That said speed should and is being used to regulate e-bikes here in California. They also mention wattage ratings with 750 watts being a more or less top motor rating for street legal use. I run a RAD City with a 750 watt hub motor which is regulated by its controller to 20mph. 20mph is way too fast for sidewalk operation in most situations but is fine for street use. I use the first level of PAS(power assist) at 54 watts which is the least amount of assist and manage 14mph all day on heavy duty 26"x2.25" MTB tires. I believe that being a very conservative user of the streets is always warranted. Big steel fenders always, always, always have the right of way no matter how mad you are at them. One can't keep up a high level of mad while resting in a coffin. I love my e-bike and ride it almost every day with my wife riding hers. She had stopped riding because of aging body components. These e-bikes have gotten us on the road for the last 3 years and it has been a very happy experience.
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#82
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Assuming throttles are always used in lieu of pedaling is a mistake. Many riders with arthritis in knees or other health issues use a throttle on take off as pedal assist requires some rotation to begin. Those initial movements can be very hard on older joints. Additionally, as someone who rides in city traffic sometimes (and other times on MUPs where they exist), a throttle can make the difference between being hit by a car or not. Unfortunately my throttle has saved me from being broadsided in intersections by bad drivers more than once. There is no way I could have pedaled out of the way in time; the added boost from the throttle let me clear by enough space so that the driver running the red light didn't hit me. I have no problem with bikes having both pedal assist and throttles - throttle only bikes should be reserved only for disabled riders.
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#83
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As you properly pointed out motors are generally built to their end output requirements. There may be motors that are built to a spectrum of output watts which means the motor is built to the largest output expected but used at a lower wattage. This derating would produce longer lived motors at lower wattage usage. I highly doubt that derated motors are being produced. Every ounce of metal be it copper, steel or some other costs money and this industry is about profits.
https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
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This article should give you some insight into hub motor power ratings. I'm not sure how it relates to mid drive motors, but I'd assume that there are similar issues and amounts of leeway.
https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
https://ebikes.ca/learn/power-ratings.html
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I didn't wade through the article (will someday), but think a reasonable starting point would be controller amps X battery voltage for rating power. Also, the only times any of the DD or geared hub or mid motors have ever been hot to the point that I let them cool for a minute or two was on 100 degree days when I was ascending a steep hill. This probably occurred fewer than five times in about eight years.
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I didn't wade through the article (will someday), but think a reasonable starting point would be controller amps X battery voltage for rating power. Also, the only times any of the DD or geared hub or mid motors have ever been hot to the point that I let them cool for a minute or two was on 100 degree days when I was ascending a steep hill. This probably occurred fewer than five times in about eight years.
Most controllers will ouptut peak power of about twice the rated power and most motors have a peak efficiency of about 80%. When pushed hard, few hub motors ever actually operate at that 80% level. They will more commonly be in the neighborhood of 70% efficiency and when the motor does actually output more than 750 watts, it generally either won't be for very long (peak 28 mph speed reached and throttle cuts out) or even result in very high speeds (going uphill can cause prolonged high outputs).
Anybody curious about such things can play around with variables on the Grin Motor Simulator.
https://ebikes.ca/tools/simulator.html
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Fortunately around here motorized scooters are restricted to roads.
They are also much more suited for purpose.
.
They are also much more suited for purpose.
.
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Similar.
Motor-driven cycles.
Scooters
Speaking of scooters:
Reminds me a little of Uber dumping Jump bikes and scooters during the pandemic. Here, Lime picked them up but they're less common than pre-2020.
Motor-driven cycles.
- A motor-driven cycle has 2-3 wheels and an engine size smaller than 149 cc.
- You must register a motor-driven cycle, and you must have a motorcycle license (M1) to drive one.
- Also known as a motorized bicycle, a moped has 2-3 wheels and an electric motor with an automatic transmission that produces less than 4 gross brake horsepower.
- Some mopeds have pedals so you can ride them when the motor is off.
- You must have a motorcycle license (M1 or M2) to drive a moped.
- You must be at least 16 years old or older to drive a moped, and you must wear a helmet while you ride.
- You do not need insurance to register a moped, but you do need special license plates and an identification card, along with a one-time $23 registration fee.
Scooters
- A motorized scooter has 2 wheels, a motor, handlebars, and a floorboard that you can stand on while riding it.
- You can only drive motorized scooters on a bicycle path, trail, or bikeway, not on a sidewalk, and you cannot exceed a speed of 15 mph.
- You do not need to register motorized scooters.
- You can drive a motorized scooter with any class driver’s license.
Speaking of scooters:
More than 20,000 electric scooters belonging to Superpedestrian will be auctioned off later this month, along with other equipment from the startup’s U.S. operations, after closing its doors December 31.
Two “global online auction” listings have appeared on the website of Silicon Valley Disposition, an online market for “surplus assets,” which will feature scooters and other paraphernalia from cities Superpedestrian operated in, like Seattle, Los Angeles and New York City. The first auction opens January 23, and will run for three days. A successive auction is set to run from January 29-January 31.
Superpedestrian initially got into the shared scooter business — which it called Link — in 2020 when it acquired “substantially all” of the assets of Boston-based Zagster, part of a wave of consolidation during the COVID-19 pandemic. Though it raised $125 million less than two years ago, the company struggled financially in 2023 as it operated its shared scooter fleets in dozens of cities around the globe. Fresh funding and a potential merger were on the horizon as recently as November, TechCrunch reported last month; whatever talks had materialized fell apart. Its demise came just days before Bird, a former leader in the space, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
Two “global online auction” listings have appeared on the website of Silicon Valley Disposition, an online market for “surplus assets,” which will feature scooters and other paraphernalia from cities Superpedestrian operated in, like Seattle, Los Angeles and New York City. The first auction opens January 23, and will run for three days. A successive auction is set to run from January 29-January 31.
Superpedestrian initially got into the shared scooter business — which it called Link — in 2020 when it acquired “substantially all” of the assets of Boston-based Zagster, part of a wave of consolidation during the COVID-19 pandemic. Though it raised $125 million less than two years ago, the company struggled financially in 2023 as it operated its shared scooter fleets in dozens of cities around the globe. Fresh funding and a potential merger were on the horizon as recently as November, TechCrunch reported last month; whatever talks had materialized fell apart. Its demise came just days before Bird, a former leader in the space, filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy.
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I don't really think that you understand the types of "scooters" most here are referring to are actually electric bikes (and also escooters, of which I'm fond of). This picture is of an electric moped, as it has no pedals. This just shows how misinformed the public really is when discussing these things. You're clueless...
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there was a time when it was common for scooters like that to have pedals that you could take off and stow in a case. I even saw a teenager pedaling up a big hill near here on one. Regretting their life choices, no doubt. I recall Canada cracking down on them, no removable cranks. Which is a good rule.
As far as the line goes, I'm not sure this subforum should be about anything that doesn't fit in the class I,II,III system. If we held to that, then it would be a lot easier to police the lost roadies that stumble in here.
As far as the line goes, I'm not sure this subforum should be about anything that doesn't fit in the class I,II,III system. If we held to that, then it would be a lot easier to police the lost roadies that stumble in here.
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I don't really think that you understand the types of "scooters" most here are referring to are actually electric bikes (and also escooters, of which I'm fond of). This picture is of an electric moped, as it has no pedals. This just shows how misinformed the public really is when discussing these things. You're clueless...
This is the type of scooter I was referring to in my op.
.
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.
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#96
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there was a time when it was common for scooters like that to have pedals that you could take off and stow in a case. I even saw a teenager pedaling up a big hill near here on one. Regretting their life choices, no doubt. I recall Canada cracking down on them, no removable cranks. Which is a good rule.
As far as the line goes, I'm not sure this subforum should be about anything that doesn't fit in the class I,II,III system. If we held to that, then it would be a lot easier to police the lost roadies that stumble in here.
As far as the line goes, I'm not sure this subforum should be about anything that doesn't fit in the class I,II,III system. If we held to that, then it would be a lot easier to police the lost roadies that stumble in here.
#97
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I don't really think that you understand the types of "scooters" most here are referring to are actually electric bikes (and also escooters, of which I'm fond of). This picture is of an electric moped, as it has no pedals. This just shows how misinformed the public really is when discussing these things. You're clueless...
A moped has peddles according to the classical definition. Thus the "ped" suffix. The mopeds of my youth were gas powered.
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Mopeds are still gas powered vehicles. Most here are specifically referencing "e" bikes. This was posted just for the "troll" effect.
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The best thing is to report individual(s) who have no knowledge of e bikes or the laws concerning them. I know that some of the excellent mods we've had in the past will warn them, then ban if they persist. It's not worth arguing with them because IMO that's the response they're seeking. Most individuals who post here know there is a Class system in about 75% of the states which define Class 1, 2 & 3 e bikes as bicycles with the same rights and responsibilities as bicycles unless they're prohibited specifically in certain towns, counties or wherever. Some states have even less restrictive laws for them. BTW, Siu Blue Wind is an administrator who seems to have watched this forum at times and has represented us perfectly.
Last edited by 2old; 01-07-24 at 08:53 AM.
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