NYC Congestion Pricing - it's a coming
04-07-08, 06:38 PM
#77
Professional Fuss-Budget
I gotta say, although I'd like to see a congestion charge, giving $1bn to MTA is just galling. I have yet to see any evidence that the MTA has the slightest concept of "fiscal responsibility." Good riddance to a bad implementation of a decent idea.
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04-07-08, 09:29 PM
#78
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I think bloomberg tried to force this through and made it so complicated that
no one would understand it. that's what you get when you have a billionaire mayor.
sometimes the simplest solution is the best, not some giant technology implementation
and convoluted rules. an example are parking regulations.
how about carpooling regulations like those implemented post 9/11? or, Strict
bus lane enforcement.
there are too many single occupant autos in Manhattan. the rich don't care about
congestion pricing, they'll just expense their commutation costs or it's in their contract.
and, at the moment the middle class suburban driver can afford to drive in to manhattan.
anyway, I have too many thoughts on this issue.
no one would understand it. that's what you get when you have a billionaire mayor.
sometimes the simplest solution is the best, not some giant technology implementation
and convoluted rules. an example are parking regulations.
how about carpooling regulations like those implemented post 9/11? or, Strict
bus lane enforcement.
there are too many single occupant autos in Manhattan. the rich don't care about
congestion pricing, they'll just expense their commutation costs or it's in their contract.
and, at the moment the middle class suburban driver can afford to drive in to manhattan.
anyway, I have too many thoughts on this issue.
04-08-08, 09:45 AM
#79
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I think certain streets should be dedicated bike/moped streets. Removing car traffic from select non-major thoroughfares will not impede car traffic (as much as I might want to do that) and facilitate safe alternative commuting. It seems like a no brainer to me. How many people drive to Manhattan down fulton street for example. If it was a bike lane the entire way, a huge number of bikes could move safely.
04-08-08, 07:51 PM
#80
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The problem which Bloomberg realizes is that there are not enough bicycles on the roads to achieve a critical mass, pun intended, of riders to make other folks who would ride but don't feel safe.
I'm a fit guy who enjoys some of the excitement of riding in NYC, but I can't recommend riding around the city to anyone who doesn't have a thrill gene to some degree. That said, I've seen plenty of car people with raging temperments who never should have been given a drivers license pretty much ruining any chance of giving an inch to someone who doesn't hold their mortgage...
I hope Congestion Pricing comes back, and sure hope somehow, more people will feel safe riding to work. Bloomberg has done a lot for cycling in the city. More than any other mayor, and I hope things keep changing for the better.
Frankly, closing major streets and avenues to motor vehicles would be another way to do it. But I weep for what might have been if CP made it through. I know Congestion Pricing would have helped "Amsterdam" New Amsterdam.
It's NOT over. Close 5th and 7th Avenue to any vehicles with NJ plates to start. Long Island cars should be banned as well. No trucks but DHL, UPS, USPS and FedEx from 8am till 8pm. Every 4th Street closed to cars and trucks. And people would be riding bikes like crazy.
It's not over. But it will have to change a bit. Thanks Bloomberg. You're a true Urban Mayor.
I'm a fit guy who enjoys some of the excitement of riding in NYC, but I can't recommend riding around the city to anyone who doesn't have a thrill gene to some degree. That said, I've seen plenty of car people with raging temperments who never should have been given a drivers license pretty much ruining any chance of giving an inch to someone who doesn't hold their mortgage...
I hope Congestion Pricing comes back, and sure hope somehow, more people will feel safe riding to work. Bloomberg has done a lot for cycling in the city. More than any other mayor, and I hope things keep changing for the better.
Frankly, closing major streets and avenues to motor vehicles would be another way to do it. But I weep for what might have been if CP made it through. I know Congestion Pricing would have helped "Amsterdam" New Amsterdam.
It's NOT over. Close 5th and 7th Avenue to any vehicles with NJ plates to start. Long Island cars should be banned as well. No trucks but DHL, UPS, USPS and FedEx from 8am till 8pm. Every 4th Street closed to cars and trucks. And people would be riding bikes like crazy.
It's not over. But it will have to change a bit. Thanks Bloomberg. You're a true Urban Mayor.
04-09-08, 07:06 PM
#81
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Someone posted this elsewhere on BF.
Sadly, I had hopes that New Amsterdam could actually become a city for people instead of greedy, scared and selfish oil consumers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rwwxrWHBB8
I'll not give up hope yet. But my commute is always, er, refreshing and dangerous in NY.
Sadly, I had hopes that New Amsterdam could actually become a city for people instead of greedy, scared and selfish oil consumers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rwwxrWHBB8
I'll not give up hope yet. But my commute is always, er, refreshing and dangerous in NY.
06-05-24, 09:45 PM
#82
I know, it's a zombie thread (16+ years, a new record?! And it took that long to get implemented, and now not), but totally on point, so why create an entirely new thread for people to say the same thing;
NYC Manhattan congestion pricing plan paused:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...e-of-manhattan
My comments in a different thread (couple months ago, talking about banning cars in Paris), I kinda saw this coming in NYC. Don't get me wrong, I want less cars in Manhattan. But they didn't do their homework on this before implementation.
NYC Manhattan congestion pricing plan paused:
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...e-of-manhattan
My comments in a different thread (couple months ago, talking about banning cars in Paris), I kinda saw this coming in NYC. Don't get me wrong, I want less cars in Manhattan. But they didn't do their homework on this before implementation.
OK I looked that up. I'm pro-bike-commuting and anti-car. But here's the problem with all that:
1) Root Cause: At one time, most of the people that worked in NYC, LIVED in NYC. Now the population of the city triples every work day. Never implement a short-term solution without addressing the long-term solution, otherwise, the short-term solution becomes the permanent solution. Make plans, NOW, for increasing housing in NYC. First, take a 100% poll of all workers in the city, and ask, if you COULD afford to live in the city, WOULD you live in the city? No? Tell me why. Determine there will be big demand for fairly priced housing in the city? Good. Start with a moratorium on building for business, as there is already an imbalance between business residency and worker residency. When a LOT more people live in the city, see how much car congestion in the downtown drops.
2) I agree with reducing congestion. This often involves taxes. But let's say, I could clap my hands together in a kumbaya moment and get everyone to reduce congestion, be it carpooling, biking, whatever, would that satisfy the NYC powers that be? NO. Because they also want the tax money to supposedly improve transit. And that is *contradictory* to the intended goals of reducing congestion. Which, it would do, if people actually have a choice, if there is elasticity in choice of transportation. Cigarette and alcohol taxes do reduce consumption. Gasoline taxes don't, not for people who have no choice but to drive, can't afford a high MPG car, and only drive when they need to. Same for congestion pricing for people that have no alternatives. Provide those alternatives, that poor and middle-income people can afford.
3) Flat taxes like this one, disproportionately affect those who have no alternative to transport, and who are usually poor. EDIT: It's worse than a flat tax, it's a REGRESSIVE tax. $15 additional on top of bridge/tunnel fees is a ton of money for the working poor. $15 doesn't buy lunch for the wealthy who commute into the city. So those wealthy should be charged proportionately. Earn 100x a low wage worker, pay 100x the congestion tax. (And by the way, this is how traffic fines work in northern Europe, some high flyers in supercars have been charged astonishingly high ticket fees.) Oh, but that would offend the powerful wealthy, who pay campaign contributions, and play golf with city leaders. Also, see how many wealthy suddenly hire helicopters and pilots, and soon you'll have congestion and accidents there, so you need to cover all bases there.
4) Establish infrastructure for alternate transport. All business to have facilities for bicyclists, from bringing bikes inside to changing rooms. Make the buses and subways cheap enough for low-income workers to ride into and out of the central business district.
5) Be careful for what you wish for; High tax at night, and people won't come to town for a nice dinner and a show. All other transport needs to be safe at night.
6) Now, understanding the above, implement your congestion pricing, on a fair basis. But increasing housing in the city will do far, FAR more in reducing congestion.
1) Root Cause: At one time, most of the people that worked in NYC, LIVED in NYC. Now the population of the city triples every work day. Never implement a short-term solution without addressing the long-term solution, otherwise, the short-term solution becomes the permanent solution. Make plans, NOW, for increasing housing in NYC. First, take a 100% poll of all workers in the city, and ask, if you COULD afford to live in the city, WOULD you live in the city? No? Tell me why. Determine there will be big demand for fairly priced housing in the city? Good. Start with a moratorium on building for business, as there is already an imbalance between business residency and worker residency. When a LOT more people live in the city, see how much car congestion in the downtown drops.
2) I agree with reducing congestion. This often involves taxes. But let's say, I could clap my hands together in a kumbaya moment and get everyone to reduce congestion, be it carpooling, biking, whatever, would that satisfy the NYC powers that be? NO. Because they also want the tax money to supposedly improve transit. And that is *contradictory* to the intended goals of reducing congestion. Which, it would do, if people actually have a choice, if there is elasticity in choice of transportation. Cigarette and alcohol taxes do reduce consumption. Gasoline taxes don't, not for people who have no choice but to drive, can't afford a high MPG car, and only drive when they need to. Same for congestion pricing for people that have no alternatives. Provide those alternatives, that poor and middle-income people can afford.
3) Flat taxes like this one, disproportionately affect those who have no alternative to transport, and who are usually poor. EDIT: It's worse than a flat tax, it's a REGRESSIVE tax. $15 additional on top of bridge/tunnel fees is a ton of money for the working poor. $15 doesn't buy lunch for the wealthy who commute into the city. So those wealthy should be charged proportionately. Earn 100x a low wage worker, pay 100x the congestion tax. (And by the way, this is how traffic fines work in northern Europe, some high flyers in supercars have been charged astonishingly high ticket fees.) Oh, but that would offend the powerful wealthy, who pay campaign contributions, and play golf with city leaders. Also, see how many wealthy suddenly hire helicopters and pilots, and soon you'll have congestion and accidents there, so you need to cover all bases there.
4) Establish infrastructure for alternate transport. All business to have facilities for bicyclists, from bringing bikes inside to changing rooms. Make the buses and subways cheap enough for low-income workers to ride into and out of the central business district.
5) Be careful for what you wish for; High tax at night, and people won't come to town for a nice dinner and a show. All other transport needs to be safe at night.
6) Now, understanding the above, implement your congestion pricing, on a fair basis. But increasing housing in the city will do far, FAR more in reducing congestion.
As Randy Newman said, "I could be wrong... but I don't think so." Janitorial staff for all the corporate buildings, fast-food workers, restaurant workers including wait, bus, and dishwashing staff, and possibly even some prep cooks fresh off the boat. Any non-union labor. Park cleaning staff. Gas station staff. Parking lot attendants. Hotel cleaning staff. Dry cleaning workers. Food store cashiers and stockers. Clothing store workers. I'll bet there is a ton of minimum wage workers that flood each weekday into Manhattan, because they sure can't afford to live there, and these days, uptown neither.
I agree that some solution is needed. But as I've said, commit to solving the long-term problem of nearby housing that does not require a car, then, give incentives to reduce congestion; One might be congestion pricing, but not on the backs of the poor, that is worse than a flat tax, it's regressive, a much larger portion of a paycheck than the white-collar wealthy that work in Manhattan. You could also do the reverse, charge no bridge or congestion fees for registered carpools, because that money saved is a big deal to the working poor, and that reduces congestion. But that doesn't generate income. If the city needs income to improve transportation, tax the wealthy, proportionately.
I agree that some solution is needed. But as I've said, commit to solving the long-term problem of nearby housing that does not require a car, then, give incentives to reduce congestion; One might be congestion pricing, but not on the backs of the poor, that is worse than a flat tax, it's regressive, a much larger portion of a paycheck than the white-collar wealthy that work in Manhattan. You could also do the reverse, charge no bridge or congestion fees for registered carpools, because that money saved is a big deal to the working poor, and that reduces congestion. But that doesn't generate income. If the city needs income to improve transportation, tax the wealthy, proportionately.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 06-05-24 at 09:52 PM.
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06-21-24, 07:51 AM
#83
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I know, it's a zombie thread (16+ years, a new record?! And it took that long to get implemented, and now not), but totally on point, so why create an entirely new thread for people to say the same thing;
NYC Manhattan congestion pricing plan paused:
My comments in a different thread (couple months ago, talking about banning cars in Paris), I kinda saw this coming in NYC. Don't get me wrong, I want less cars in Manhattan. But they didn't do their homework on this before implementation.
NYC Manhattan congestion pricing plan paused:
My comments in a different thread (couple months ago, talking about banning cars in Paris), I kinda saw this coming in NYC. Don't get me wrong, I want less cars in Manhattan. But they didn't do their homework on this before implementation.
On top of that, there was another recent radio story about e-bike and scooter legislation (or lack thereof) in the city. Suffice to say that, based on the people calling in and public sentiment I have seen elsewhere, the overwhelming majority of people are completely frustrated with the current situation in the city. Principle complaints center around delivery riders on e-bikes and electric mopeds, but plenty of ire is directed toward electric Citibikes and standup scooters as well (as it should be). This is nothing new to me personally, as a traditional (non E) bike rider in the city, where I have been complaining for years that things are completely out of control. On top of all the smaller electric vehicles being operated atrociously, you have the plague of Uber (and similar service) drivers operating their cars in appalling fashion, typically staring at their phones (mounted in places that obscure their own visibility), and making sudden and unsigned maneuvers to catch a ride, or follow some route like a brainless robot.
Anyway, it seems abundantly clear to me that the only real solution would be a comprehensive overhaul of the entire above-ground transportation network in the city. Start from scratch, and include a serious limit on cars for hire (which the medallion system was supposed to do, but we simply let Uber and the like ignore it), not only in number but in size. There is absolutely no reason why people should be driver around in an Escalade or Suburban when a sedan will accomplish the exact same task. Then create clear and enforceable rules for any bike or scooter with a non human motor, and keep them the heck away from both pedestrians, and regular bike riders. Everywhere else in the world, people with motorized scooters can handle riding them in the street with the cars. Why should NYC be different?
But all of this would require leadership with actual vision, and perhaps a mayor that doesn't go everywhere in their own Escalade with a police escort. And really, this should go beyond traditional politics and political party. I can freely admit that the most effective recent mayors of NYC haven't come from the party I traditionally support, because national politics have very little to do with quality of life in NYC.
06-21-24, 08:48 AM
#84
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it is unfortunate they have stopped the 2nd Ave, construction, but that’s the MTA sending a clear FU message to Albany.
06-21-24, 11:43 PM
#85
Since you brought this threat back to life (which I agree with), and I've heard the recent talk on NPR, I thought I would echo your sentiments, nearly all of which I completely agree with.
On top of that, there was another recent radio story about e-bike and scooter legislation (or lack thereof) in the city. Suffice to say that, based on the people calling in and public sentiment I have seen elsewhere, the overwhelming majority of people are completely frustrated with the current situation in the city. Principle complaints center around delivery riders on e-bikes and electric mopeds, but plenty of ire is directed toward electric Citibikes and standup scooters as well (as it should be). This is nothing new to me personally, as a traditional (non E) bike rider in the city, where I have been complaining for years that things are completely out of control. On top of all the smaller electric vehicles being operated atrociously, you have the plague of Uber (and similar service) drivers operating their cars in appalling fashion, typically staring at their phones (mounted in places that obscure their own visibility), and making sudden and unsigned maneuvers to catch a ride, or follow some route like a brainless robot.
Anyway, it seems abundantly clear to me that the only real solution would be a comprehensive overhaul of the entire above-ground transportation network in the city. Start from scratch, and include a serious limit on cars for hire (which the medallion system was supposed to do, but we simply let Uber and the like ignore it), not only in number but in size. There is absolutely no reason why people should be driver around in an Escalade or Suburban when a sedan will accomplish the exact same task. Then create clear and enforceable rules for any bike or scooter with a non human motor, and keep them the heck away from both pedestrians, and regular bike riders. Everywhere else in the world, people with motorized scooters can handle riding them in the street with the cars. Why should NYC be different?
But all of this would require leadership with actual vision, and perhaps a mayor that doesn't go everywhere in their own Escalade with a police escort. And really, this should go beyond traditional politics and political party. I can freely admit that the most effective recent mayors of NYC haven't come from the party I traditionally support, because national politics have very little to do with quality of life in NYC.
On top of that, there was another recent radio story about e-bike and scooter legislation (or lack thereof) in the city. Suffice to say that, based on the people calling in and public sentiment I have seen elsewhere, the overwhelming majority of people are completely frustrated with the current situation in the city. Principle complaints center around delivery riders on e-bikes and electric mopeds, but plenty of ire is directed toward electric Citibikes and standup scooters as well (as it should be). This is nothing new to me personally, as a traditional (non E) bike rider in the city, where I have been complaining for years that things are completely out of control. On top of all the smaller electric vehicles being operated atrociously, you have the plague of Uber (and similar service) drivers operating their cars in appalling fashion, typically staring at their phones (mounted in places that obscure their own visibility), and making sudden and unsigned maneuvers to catch a ride, or follow some route like a brainless robot.
Anyway, it seems abundantly clear to me that the only real solution would be a comprehensive overhaul of the entire above-ground transportation network in the city. Start from scratch, and include a serious limit on cars for hire (which the medallion system was supposed to do, but we simply let Uber and the like ignore it), not only in number but in size. There is absolutely no reason why people should be driver around in an Escalade or Suburban when a sedan will accomplish the exact same task. Then create clear and enforceable rules for any bike or scooter with a non human motor, and keep them the heck away from both pedestrians, and regular bike riders. Everywhere else in the world, people with motorized scooters can handle riding them in the street with the cars. Why should NYC be different?
But all of this would require leadership with actual vision, and perhaps a mayor that doesn't go everywhere in their own Escalade with a police escort. And really, this should go beyond traditional politics and political party. I can freely admit that the most effective recent mayors of NYC haven't come from the party I traditionally support, because national politics have very little to do with quality of life in NYC.
Uber drivers should pay an equal license fee and be required to have the same training and background check as medallion taxis, or taxi owners should have their medallion fees refunded. Taxi drivers were committing suicide after taking out loans exceeding $1 million and then Uber taking their place for no fee. Fair is fair. If it moves like a taxi, takes money for hire as a taxi, it's a taxi. Vehicles: IIRC, NYC had a competition about 10(?) years ago to select compact minivans as taxis, both space efficient and shorter overall length and width; If true, ALL taxis should comply, except some reserved as airport shuttles for 3+ passengers plus luggage, in which case, a full-size van or sport ute may be required.
E-bikes are a power-supplemented vehicle. Require a license. Standardize training across the USA and Europe so visiting tourists all have a license. For others, should not require more than an hour of training upon arrival. Backstop: E-bike or scooter only operates up to 10 mph max unless you flash your e-bike license. And system will only let one vehicle be operated at a time by that license, lest someone try to flash their license on more than one vehicle for the family. But, most problems are caused by failure to heed traffic laws.
Manual bikes: You want to be respected? Act respectful. You run red traffic lights, etc, you get cited just like with cars. If the city *wants* bikes to carefully proceed through a red light with no cross traffic, so they can bike freely ahead of traffic and not obstruct traffic, say so, and train bicyclists accordingly. Just like right-turn-on-red, it can be a positive thing if trained and regulated properly.
As much as I hate to admit it, da mayor needs to be transported in a large sport utility vehicle with armed escort; It probably has ballistic resistant "glass" and armor in the doors and floor panels, and has enough shove to push most ambush-blockade vehicles out of the way. If I were president of the US, I would hate being transported in the presidential limousine, aka The Beast, but I'd accept it as a necessary security precaution. Worse, I'd hate if my bicycling was restricted, and if allowed, accompanied by a phalanx of large sport utility vehicles, that kinda ruins the vibe. But that's the reality of our modern world. This ain't New Zealand (Notably, where the prime minister at the time, Jacinda Ardern, picked up USA late-night talk show host, Stephen Colbert, solo and in her own car, at the airport upon his arrival in NZ).
Last edited by Duragrouch; 06-22-24 at 01:00 AM.
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09-02-24, 01:12 PM
#86
Newbie
Glad you're okay
Promising... I really hope so. I don't think it's going to do much for congestion, but I hope it will raise more funds for alternative transit.
I'll be writing all my congresscritters to tell them I support it, primarily because it should raise money for mass and alternative transit. If you support it, let your reps know about it.
Imagine express buses with dedicated bus lanes... real bus lanes, not the ones every driver ignores in NYC.
Or real bike lanes so you wouldn't have to fight for space (as much) while riding around NYC.
Then again, I'm in a sour mood 'cause I almost became a hood ornament courtesy a right hook on York and 61st this evening. One of these days I'm not going to react fast enough when a car comes from behind and on my left and tries making a right when I'm 5 feet from the intersection...
I'll be writing all my congresscritters to tell them I support it, primarily because it should raise money for mass and alternative transit. If you support it, let your reps know about it.
Imagine express buses with dedicated bus lanes... real bus lanes, not the ones every driver ignores in NYC.
Or real bike lanes so you wouldn't have to fight for space (as much) while riding around NYC.
Then again, I'm in a sour mood 'cause I almost became a hood ornament courtesy a right hook on York and 61st this evening. One of these days I'm not going to react fast enough when a car comes from behind and on my left and tries making a right when I'm 5 feet from the intersection...
