New to Racing? Here's a tip or two
#276
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Thanks I was in a racing line, but due to their braking into the corner, I tried not to touch my brakes (since this was my first bunch race, and everything I had read said *don't* touch your brakes in the final corner), so that took me out of that racing line and between the outer and middle lines slightly. That was clearly my mistake and I put myself in a risky situation (there's no denying that). What I'm learning here is that I could have saved myself by braking and getting back into the main line. The crash didn't actually happen in the corner: it happened right after the corner. I made it through the corner just fine (like I said: I'm fine with counter-steering and taking corners at speed).
But being in the risky spot that I was in, and that the guy to my left went wide and fell back a bit, he left a hole and I went for that hole as people were on the finishing straight gearing up for the sprint. But he hammered forward, didn't even look to his right, and took me out. So it wasn't a natural part of the turn per se (or maybe it was, what do I know?) when I went down. So it was an outside-in crash, not the usual inside-out crash.
But yeah: moral of the story: I need to get better at positioning myself in a major pace line for the final corner, staying in that line, and being willing to use my brakes to do so.
<3
But being in the risky spot that I was in, and that the guy to my left went wide and fell back a bit, he left a hole and I went for that hole as people were on the finishing straight gearing up for the sprint. But he hammered forward, didn't even look to his right, and took me out. So it wasn't a natural part of the turn per se (or maybe it was, what do I know?) when I went down. So it was an outside-in crash, not the usual inside-out crash.
But yeah: moral of the story: I need to get better at positioning myself in a major pace line for the final corner, staying in that line, and being willing to use my brakes to do so.
<3
#279
Newbie racer
I guess this belongs here. I went to a different hammer ride last night. Three of us (4/5's, 4/5's without a team) somehow made the "selection".
I've heard it over and over to ride with faster people to get better, that was the plan. I didn't feel it helpful to play backdoor for 1/2 the ride on the flats because us 4/5 lost a guy on the first hill "selection" and the much stronger two teams on the ride were controlling stuff with just the two of us left. Outnumbered, out gunned.
Didn't really feel I belonged. I could get up front with them and into it if the road went uphill for a bit. Not flats though.
Both of us were 4/5 guys who made a "big boy" selection. I didn't realize the A ride had a thing like that where those folks usually select ahead and the rest of A is just behind.
I got bored enough I half considered blowing up on purpose in the last 3 miles just to do something.
Suck it up and play backdoor OR eff it and drift back and hurt the 3/4/5 folks instead? I don't want to feel like I'm in the way of "their fun" by just being able to hang around. I'd probably do better or have more fun if there was a hill or two more as I'm skinny enough that'd be my chance to lead or do something. Just to be followed/reeled in 30 seconds.
Thoughts on the Cat 5 dragging on the coat-tails of the fast folks? I did NOT contest the sprint. I followed, but not having helped much if any just stayed put.
I've heard it over and over to ride with faster people to get better, that was the plan. I didn't feel it helpful to play backdoor for 1/2 the ride on the flats because us 4/5 lost a guy on the first hill "selection" and the much stronger two teams on the ride were controlling stuff with just the two of us left. Outnumbered, out gunned.
Didn't really feel I belonged. I could get up front with them and into it if the road went uphill for a bit. Not flats though.
Both of us were 4/5 guys who made a "big boy" selection. I didn't realize the A ride had a thing like that where those folks usually select ahead and the rest of A is just behind.
I got bored enough I half considered blowing up on purpose in the last 3 miles just to do something.
Suck it up and play backdoor OR eff it and drift back and hurt the 3/4/5 folks instead? I don't want to feel like I'm in the way of "their fun" by just being able to hang around. I'd probably do better or have more fun if there was a hill or two more as I'm skinny enough that'd be my chance to lead or do something. Just to be followed/reeled in 30 seconds.
Thoughts on the Cat 5 dragging on the coat-tails of the fast folks? I did NOT contest the sprint. I followed, but not having helped much if any just stayed put.
#280
Not actually Tmonk
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This is confusing. Is that a group ride or a race? You are neither new nor is that a race it seems like. I would post that in Training Status.
__________________
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
"Your beauty is an aeroplane;
so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste
#281
Senior Member
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I guess this belongs here. I went to a different hammer ride last night. Three of us (4/5's, 4/5's without a team) somehow made the "selection".
I've heard it over and over to ride with faster people to get better, that was the plan. I didn't feel it helpful to play backdoor for 1/2 the ride on the flats because us 4/5 lost a guy on the first hill "selection" and the much stronger two teams on the ride were controlling stuff with just the two of us left. Outnumbered, out gunned.
Didn't really feel I belonged. I could get up front with them and into it if the road went uphill for a bit. Not flats though.
Both of us were 4/5 guys who made a "big boy" selection. I didn't realize the A ride had a thing like that where those folks usually select ahead and the rest of A is just behind.
I got bored enough I half considered blowing up on purpose in the last 3 miles just to do something.
Suck it up and play backdoor OR eff it and drift back and hurt the 3/4/5 folks instead? I don't want to feel like I'm in the way of "their fun" by just being able to hang around. I'd probably do better or have more fun if there was a hill or two more as I'm skinny enough that'd be my chance to lead or do something. Just to be followed/reeled in 30 seconds.
Thoughts on the Cat 5 dragging on the coat-tails of the fast folks? I did NOT contest the sprint. I followed, but not having helped much if any just stayed put.
I've heard it over and over to ride with faster people to get better, that was the plan. I didn't feel it helpful to play backdoor for 1/2 the ride on the flats because us 4/5 lost a guy on the first hill "selection" and the much stronger two teams on the ride were controlling stuff with just the two of us left. Outnumbered, out gunned.
Didn't really feel I belonged. I could get up front with them and into it if the road went uphill for a bit. Not flats though.
Both of us were 4/5 guys who made a "big boy" selection. I didn't realize the A ride had a thing like that where those folks usually select ahead and the rest of A is just behind.
I got bored enough I half considered blowing up on purpose in the last 3 miles just to do something.
Suck it up and play backdoor OR eff it and drift back and hurt the 3/4/5 folks instead? I don't want to feel like I'm in the way of "their fun" by just being able to hang around. I'd probably do better or have more fun if there was a hill or two more as I'm skinny enough that'd be my chance to lead or do something. Just to be followed/reeled in 30 seconds.
Thoughts on the Cat 5 dragging on the coat-tails of the fast folks? I did NOT contest the sprint. I followed, but not having helped much if any just stayed put.
Training is not racing. Training rides are not races. If you just wanted to sit on the back of a group, you'd be better off doing a solo workout. Attack, get brought back, get stuck in, attack again. Do stuff you wouldn't want to do in a race because it probably wouldn't work. Because a training ride is not a race. It's a workout. Go do workout stuff. Sprint. Jump early, attack late, whatever. Get in an actual workout. The idea of being outnumbered or a team controlling things is a weird thing to read about, honestly. Again, training ride. Attack or drill it or something that will actually force you to do something new.
The only one that cares about you being a cat 5 is you. You got to move past that. Shouldn't have anything to do with anything if you're riding safely and predictably.
#282
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Join Date: Jun 2008
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I don't really get some of your made-up terms. "Backdoor"? "Select ahead"?
Training is not racing. Training rides are not races. If you just wanted to sit on the back of a group, you'd be better off doing a solo workout. Attack, get brought back, get stuck in, attack again. Do stuff you wouldn't want to do in a race because it probably wouldn't work. Because a training ride is not a race. It's a workout. Go do workout stuff. Sprint. Jump early, attack late, whatever. Get in an actual workout. The idea of being outnumbered or a team controlling things is a weird thing to read about, honestly. Again, training ride. Attack or drill it or something that will actually force you to do something new.
The only one that cares about you being a cat 5 is you. You got to move past that. Shouldn't have anything to do with anything if you're riding safely and predictably.
Training is not racing. Training rides are not races. If you just wanted to sit on the back of a group, you'd be better off doing a solo workout. Attack, get brought back, get stuck in, attack again. Do stuff you wouldn't want to do in a race because it probably wouldn't work. Because a training ride is not a race. It's a workout. Go do workout stuff. Sprint. Jump early, attack late, whatever. Get in an actual workout. The idea of being outnumbered or a team controlling things is a weird thing to read about, honestly. Again, training ride. Attack or drill it or something that will actually force you to do something new.
The only one that cares about you being a cat 5 is you. You got to move past that. Shouldn't have anything to do with anything if you're riding safely and predictably.
#283
Newbie racer
I got to the source of my frustration in the Training Status topic with my final post on this subject over there.
At the end of the day, any disappointments over a workout or training ride format or losing a group ride or whatever didn't matter. What mattered was that people weren't respecting people's safety. And that pissed me off.
I wrote a bunch of drivel complaining about team tactics or some BS because I couldn't really put a finger on what it actually was. It takes me a while to get there.
Everyone deserves to make it home. You lead the group into oncoming traffic twice, and lead the group up the wrong way up a road divider to cut a corner faster............then I ain't got anything for you. The same stuff happened a year prior at the same ride. It didn't matter that much that time as a year ago I had gotten dropped with the other 2/3 of the crowd and then the problems stopped. I never made it with those folks last year to the wrong-way turn deal.
I'm not OK riding with folks on a group ride that'll run you up wrong-way traffic to shave 5 seconds off a turn.
End of story.
At the end of the day, any disappointments over a workout or training ride format or losing a group ride or whatever didn't matter. What mattered was that people weren't respecting people's safety. And that pissed me off.
I wrote a bunch of drivel complaining about team tactics or some BS because I couldn't really put a finger on what it actually was. It takes me a while to get there.
Everyone deserves to make it home. You lead the group into oncoming traffic twice, and lead the group up the wrong way up a road divider to cut a corner faster............then I ain't got anything for you. The same stuff happened a year prior at the same ride. It didn't matter that much that time as a year ago I had gotten dropped with the other 2/3 of the crowd and then the problems stopped. I never made it with those folks last year to the wrong-way turn deal.
I'm not OK riding with folks on a group ride that'll run you up wrong-way traffic to shave 5 seconds off a turn.
End of story.
#284
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Posts: 40,863
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I got to the source of my frustration in the Training Status topic with my final post on this subject over there.
At the end of the day, any disappointments over a workout or training ride format or losing a group ride or whatever didn't matter. What mattered was that people weren't respecting people's safety. And that pissed me off.
I wrote a bunch of drivel complaining about team tactics or some BS because I couldn't really put a finger on what it actually was. It takes me a while to get there.
Everyone deserves to make it home. You lead the group into oncoming traffic twice, and lead the group up the wrong way up a road divider to cut a corner faster............then I ain't got anything for you. The same stuff happened a year prior at the same ride. It didn't matter that much that time as a year ago I had gotten dropped with the other 2/3 of the crowd and then the problems stopped. I never made it with those folks last year to the wrong-way turn deal.
I'm not OK riding with folks on a group ride that'll run you up wrong-way traffic to shave 5 seconds off a turn.
End of story.
At the end of the day, any disappointments over a workout or training ride format or losing a group ride or whatever didn't matter. What mattered was that people weren't respecting people's safety. And that pissed me off.
I wrote a bunch of drivel complaining about team tactics or some BS because I couldn't really put a finger on what it actually was. It takes me a while to get there.
Everyone deserves to make it home. You lead the group into oncoming traffic twice, and lead the group up the wrong way up a road divider to cut a corner faster............then I ain't got anything for you. The same stuff happened a year prior at the same ride. It didn't matter that much that time as a year ago I had gotten dropped with the other 2/3 of the crowd and then the problems stopped. I never made it with those folks last year to the wrong-way turn deal.
I'm not OK riding with folks on a group ride that'll run you up wrong-way traffic to shave 5 seconds off a turn.
End of story.
(That said, it's really not a Training Status or New To Racing topic.)
#285
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
I am new to racing!
I am so new to racing that I've not raced yet. I did "race" one time in what could be called a "criterium"; fairly informal, and unfortunately run by the military. 10 mile race of 2 laps, in 3rd place and catching the team pair ahead of me......and then out of nowhere, a garbage or dump truck, a big yellow thing anyways wiped me off the road into sugar sand; history. I always thought traffic was stopped, detoured, or was made to use a dedicated lane only during a road race; I learned the hard way after being tossed into an ambulance that day; figured if this happens in racing I may as well stick to the roads with traffic I AM EXPECTING. That was over 30 years ago, now I just want to turn and burn and see what I've got. At present I have nothing; I can't even maintain 20 mph for a half hour, but I can ride 20 miles plus averaging about 17 mph. I do not use low gears very often, not a spinner. I remember my average speed as being around 23 mph for one to two hour rides and I could sprint up to about 35 mph. My last "organized" (not a race, but everyone approached it that way except myself) ride was in November. I road a 69 Raleigh Sports 3spd for laughs , but found that I was keeping with the pack on my 50 lb. behemoth (we had a couple tandems riding also) while others (I'll call them "kids", no offense to the younger generations) were riding all the new fangled stuff as well as fixies (which I hate, sorry). I had no problem riding the bike for about 25 miles that day finishing with the main pack. I don't have anyone to ride with so that's out; can't use my work commute for training because I live 40 miles away and work at midnight and although I've done the ride before, the semi-truck traffic at night is rather dangerous, and after about a 2.5 hour ride and 9 hours on the feet working my body is not quite happy about return trip and it doesn't leave me much time at home. my normal rides are 20-25 miles and I don't do well in the Florida sun. Went out last Friday at noon and after one and a half hours I returned home drained from the 100 degree temp. My only quality ride time is early (cooler but extremely humid) or early eves/nights which aren't that much cooler until late (my sleep time with my present hours).
Anyways, 55 years old, 5'7" at 140 lbs, so not in too bad shape except for the cycling side of the issue. I would like to try, but I have no confidence riding close quarters around others; I like my space! Should I try at all, ride the tail and be happy I'm trying to compete, or just stay out of everyone's way and ride the trails in solitude? I don't like experiencing any sport/activity from the couch, but I don't want to ruin others experiences with my ineptitude.
I tried MTB and crashed 6 times in 3 miles so that is not an option I still have to work!), cyclocross means a new bike (can I convert an old road to cross? wrong geometry?).
It also appears that I'll need a new vocabulary.
I would be using an older steel bike 70's-80's as equipment. Does this automatically make me look like an idiot with all the new stuff out there? DT friction shifting is fine by me and so is a 6 speed; riding an 8,9,10,11 speed is just wasting sprockets on me unless I'm in the mountains, but no, Florida "flatlands" primarily.
I would not be embarrassed by finishing last, only if not finishing at all; I expect that there are 80 year olds who would blow me away so I'm being realistic.
I can handle the truth; no sugar coating!
Anyways, 55 years old, 5'7" at 140 lbs, so not in too bad shape except for the cycling side of the issue. I would like to try, but I have no confidence riding close quarters around others; I like my space! Should I try at all, ride the tail and be happy I'm trying to compete, or just stay out of everyone's way and ride the trails in solitude? I don't like experiencing any sport/activity from the couch, but I don't want to ruin others experiences with my ineptitude.
I tried MTB and crashed 6 times in 3 miles so that is not an option I still have to work!), cyclocross means a new bike (can I convert an old road to cross? wrong geometry?).
It also appears that I'll need a new vocabulary.
I would be using an older steel bike 70's-80's as equipment. Does this automatically make me look like an idiot with all the new stuff out there? DT friction shifting is fine by me and so is a 6 speed; riding an 8,9,10,11 speed is just wasting sprockets on me unless I'm in the mountains, but no, Florida "flatlands" primarily.
I would not be embarrassed by finishing last, only if not finishing at all; I expect that there are 80 year olds who would blow me away so I'm being realistic.
I can handle the truth; no sugar coating!
Last edited by HPL; 05-29-19 at 07:27 AM.
#286
Senior Member
You can absolutely try to race, but based on the information you've provided, it is going to be a very rough go at it. As for the older equipment, you'll get a few odd looks but for the most part no one will care.
If you want to test yourself prior to the race, find the fastest group ride out there; I suspect the one you did probably isn't that fast (the tandems give it away). You'll definitely also want to get acclimated to riding in close quarters; for your own safety. Bike racing isn't like other sports, even the entry level of the sport is stupidly fast compared to the average recreational cyclist.
If you want to test yourself prior to the race, find the fastest group ride out there; I suspect the one you did probably isn't that fast (the tandems give it away). You'll definitely also want to get acclimated to riding in close quarters; for your own safety. Bike racing isn't like other sports, even the entry level of the sport is stupidly fast compared to the average recreational cyclist.
#287
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Hi, and welcome. A couple thoughts:
Unless you want to limit yourself to time trials, you're going to have to get comfortable and proficient riding in a group. As FF said, find the local fast group ride, and do that ride. You can start at the back, and as you get used to finding the draft, you can move up.
An 80s steel frame bike isn't going to hold you back, especially in Florida. But DT shifters will put you at a disadvantage. It's not disqualifying, but it's an extra level of complication.
You absolutely can use your commute as training. I have for years.
Re cyclocross: Actually a 70-80s road bike can be adapted to CX. I did my first season of cross on a Trek 660 with a set of knobby tires. It worked great in dry September, but by October it got bogged down in the mud.
Unless you want to limit yourself to time trials, you're going to have to get comfortable and proficient riding in a group. As FF said, find the local fast group ride, and do that ride. You can start at the back, and as you get used to finding the draft, you can move up.
An 80s steel frame bike isn't going to hold you back, especially in Florida. But DT shifters will put you at a disadvantage. It's not disqualifying, but it's an extra level of complication.
You absolutely can use your commute as training. I have for years.
Re cyclocross: Actually a 70-80s road bike can be adapted to CX. I did my first season of cross on a Trek 660 with a set of knobby tires. It worked great in dry September, but by October it got bogged down in the mud.
#288
Newbie racer
Agreed with the above folks.
Sounds to me you should start with the B group ride. Every week. If you find it slow, focus on group riding skills and being super smooth. When not riding in the group, get used to doing intervals that make you want to cry, chew your bar tape, cuss, and maybe vomit.
After a good while, move up to A group. Keep at the training.
After a good while, move into the "race sim" group ride once in a while. Get dropped, try again. Get dropped, try again. Finally hang on. Eventually toss in a few pulls, then someday maybe even an attack.
Race....
None of that but the training and solo riding is necessary for TT if you want to try that. Cross can be as bumpy and jarring as MTB is depending on the course.
IMHO, the basic entry level of fitness in beginner racing has jumped a bit in the recent years of Zwift and "structured training for the unwashed masses" kind of programs.
But, it can be fun and rewarding. Just keep your wits about you and have small incremental goals (one of my biggest problems).
Sounds to me you should start with the B group ride. Every week. If you find it slow, focus on group riding skills and being super smooth. When not riding in the group, get used to doing intervals that make you want to cry, chew your bar tape, cuss, and maybe vomit.
After a good while, move up to A group. Keep at the training.
After a good while, move into the "race sim" group ride once in a while. Get dropped, try again. Get dropped, try again. Finally hang on. Eventually toss in a few pulls, then someday maybe even an attack.
Race....
None of that but the training and solo riding is necessary for TT if you want to try that. Cross can be as bumpy and jarring as MTB is depending on the course.
IMHO, the basic entry level of fitness in beginner racing has jumped a bit in the recent years of Zwift and "structured training for the unwashed masses" kind of programs.
But, it can be fun and rewarding. Just keep your wits about you and have small incremental goals (one of my biggest problems).
#289
Version 7.0
Welcome to the forum and racing.
Criterium racing is not very welcoming to new entrants and may be even more for older master racers. More than likely, you will get dropped quickly from the pack and then pulled by the officials. Your trip to the race will seem not worth it and entry fee for two laps of racing overpriced. Getting pulled is for your safety and others but it is up to the officials and will vary from race to race. If you are okay with that...welcome to mass start criterium racing and let the journey begin.
Down tube shifters are perfectly serviceable but not as safe as modern brifters. We teach new racers to ride in the drops and keep your hands on the bars to protect from hooking another rider or being hooked. You will have to reach down and shift with one hand. That is not terrible per se but not as safe as keeping your hands on the bars. Plus you are a new racer such that keeping the hands on the bars is even more important. But down tube shifters are perfectly fine.
I do not think bike racing is any different from competing at a tennis or golf tournament. Casual golf or tennis is completely different from tournament play. Bike racing is tournament play. These guys are going to be very good and significantly surpass recreational cyclists in speed and execution skills - just like golf and tennis or any other sport.
To consider mass start racing, IMO, one must develop pack riding skills before the first race and even take a bike racing skills course.
IMO, considering your statement about riding in close quarters, I would suggest that you start with time trials and ride your current bike in a Merckx category. This way you are on the course by yourself, you will get to finish and you do not have to change a thing with your setup. In fact, others will think your older bike is very cool for a Merckx time trial. Time trials are hard but you will get the idea of racing your bike in a safer environment with less skills required. Racing develops fitness and you can work on your pack skills in group rides and when you are ready, start mass start racing. Good luck.
Criterium racing is not very welcoming to new entrants and may be even more for older master racers. More than likely, you will get dropped quickly from the pack and then pulled by the officials. Your trip to the race will seem not worth it and entry fee for two laps of racing overpriced. Getting pulled is for your safety and others but it is up to the officials and will vary from race to race. If you are okay with that...welcome to mass start criterium racing and let the journey begin.
Down tube shifters are perfectly serviceable but not as safe as modern brifters. We teach new racers to ride in the drops and keep your hands on the bars to protect from hooking another rider or being hooked. You will have to reach down and shift with one hand. That is not terrible per se but not as safe as keeping your hands on the bars. Plus you are a new racer such that keeping the hands on the bars is even more important. But down tube shifters are perfectly fine.
I do not think bike racing is any different from competing at a tennis or golf tournament. Casual golf or tennis is completely different from tournament play. Bike racing is tournament play. These guys are going to be very good and significantly surpass recreational cyclists in speed and execution skills - just like golf and tennis or any other sport.
To consider mass start racing, IMO, one must develop pack riding skills before the first race and even take a bike racing skills course.
IMO, considering your statement about riding in close quarters, I would suggest that you start with time trials and ride your current bike in a Merckx category. This way you are on the course by yourself, you will get to finish and you do not have to change a thing with your setup. In fact, others will think your older bike is very cool for a Merckx time trial. Time trials are hard but you will get the idea of racing your bike in a safer environment with less skills required. Racing develops fitness and you can work on your pack skills in group rides and when you are ready, start mass start racing. Good luck.
Last edited by Hermes; 05-29-19 at 01:07 PM.
#290
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
New to Racing
Welcome to the forum and racing.
Criterium racing is not very welcoming to new entrants and may be even more for older master racers. More than likely, you will get dropped quickly from the pack and then pulled by the officials. Your trip to the race will seem not worth it and entry fee for two laps of racing overpriced. Getting pulled is for your safety and others but it is up to the officials and will vary from race to race. If you are okay with that...welcome to mass start criterium racing and let the journey begin.
Down tube shifters are perfectly serviceable but not as safe as modern brifters. We teach new racers to ride in the drops and keep your hands on the bars to protect from hooking another rider or being hooked. You will have to reach down and shift with one hand. That is not terrible per se but not as safe as keeping your hands on the bars. Plus you are a new racer such that keeping the hands on the bars is even more important. But down tube shifters are perfectly fine.
I do not think bike racing is any different from competing at a tennis or golf tournament. Casual golf or tennis is completely different from tournament play. Bike racing is tournament play. These guys are going to be very good and significantly surpass recreational cyclists in speed and execution skills - just like golf and tennis or any other sport.
To consider mass start racing, IMO, one must develop pack riding skills before the first race and even take a bike racing skills course.
IMO, considering your statement about riding in close quarters, I would suggest that you start with time trials and ride your current bike in a Merckx category. This way you are on the course by yourself, you will get to finish and you do not have to change a thing with your setup. In fact, others will think your older bike is very cool for a Merckx time trial. Time trials are hard but you will get the idea of racing your bike in a safer environment with less skills required. Racing develops fitness and you can work on your pack skills in group rides and when you are ready, start mass start racing. Good luck.
Criterium racing is not very welcoming to new entrants and may be even more for older master racers. More than likely, you will get dropped quickly from the pack and then pulled by the officials. Your trip to the race will seem not worth it and entry fee for two laps of racing overpriced. Getting pulled is for your safety and others but it is up to the officials and will vary from race to race. If you are okay with that...welcome to mass start criterium racing and let the journey begin.
Down tube shifters are perfectly serviceable but not as safe as modern brifters. We teach new racers to ride in the drops and keep your hands on the bars to protect from hooking another rider or being hooked. You will have to reach down and shift with one hand. That is not terrible per se but not as safe as keeping your hands on the bars. Plus you are a new racer such that keeping the hands on the bars is even more important. But down tube shifters are perfectly fine.
I do not think bike racing is any different from competing at a tennis or golf tournament. Casual golf or tennis is completely different from tournament play. Bike racing is tournament play. These guys are going to be very good and significantly surpass recreational cyclists in speed and execution skills - just like golf and tennis or any other sport.
To consider mass start racing, IMO, one must develop pack riding skills before the first race and even take a bike racing skills course.
IMO, considering your statement about riding in close quarters, I would suggest that you start with time trials and ride your current bike in a Merckx category. This way you are on the course by yourself, you will get to finish and you do not have to change a thing with your setup. In fact, others will think your older bike is very cool for a Merckx time trial. Time trials are hard but you will get the idea of racing your bike in a safer environment with less skills required. Racing develops fitness and you can work on your pack skills in group rides and when you are ready, start mass start racing. Good luck.
Agreed with the above folks.
Sounds to me you should start with the B group ride. Every week. If you find it slow, focus on group riding skills and being super smooth. When not riding in the group, get used to doing intervals that make you want to cry, chew your bar tape, cuss, and maybe vomit.
After a good while, move up to A group. Keep at the training.
After a good while, move into the "race sim" group ride once in a while. Get dropped, try again. Get dropped, try again. Finally hang on. Eventually toss in a few pulls, then someday maybe even an attack.
Race....
None of that but the training and solo riding is necessary for TT if you want to try that. Cross can be as bumpy and jarring as MTB is depending on the course.
IMHO, the basic entry level of fitness in beginner racing has jumped a bit in the recent years of Zwift and "structured training for the unwashed masses" kind of programs.
But, it can be fun and rewarding. Just keep your wits about you and have small incremental goals (one of my biggest problems).
Sounds to me you should start with the B group ride. Every week. If you find it slow, focus on group riding skills and being super smooth. When not riding in the group, get used to doing intervals that make you want to cry, chew your bar tape, cuss, and maybe vomit.
After a good while, move up to A group. Keep at the training.
After a good while, move into the "race sim" group ride once in a while. Get dropped, try again. Get dropped, try again. Finally hang on. Eventually toss in a few pulls, then someday maybe even an attack.
Race....
None of that but the training and solo riding is necessary for TT if you want to try that. Cross can be as bumpy and jarring as MTB is depending on the course.
IMHO, the basic entry level of fitness in beginner racing has jumped a bit in the recent years of Zwift and "structured training for the unwashed masses" kind of programs.
But, it can be fun and rewarding. Just keep your wits about you and have small incremental goals (one of my biggest problems).
Hi, and welcome. A couple thoughts:
Unless you want to limit yourself to time trials, you're going to have to get comfortable and proficient riding in a group. As FF said, find the local fast group ride, and do that ride. You can start at the back, and as you get used to finding the draft, you can move up.
An 80s steel frame bike isn't going to hold you back, especially in Florida. But DT shifters will put you at a disadvantage. It's not disqualifying, but it's an extra level of complication.
You absolutely can use your commute as training. I have for years.
Re cyclocross: Actually a 70-80s road bike can be adapted to CX. I did my first season of cross on a Trek 660 with a set of knobby tires. It worked great in dry September, but by October it got bogged down in the mud.
Unless you want to limit yourself to time trials, you're going to have to get comfortable and proficient riding in a group. As FF said, find the local fast group ride, and do that ride. You can start at the back, and as you get used to finding the draft, you can move up.
An 80s steel frame bike isn't going to hold you back, especially in Florida. But DT shifters will put you at a disadvantage. It's not disqualifying, but it's an extra level of complication.
You absolutely can use your commute as training. I have for years.
Re cyclocross: Actually a 70-80s road bike can be adapted to CX. I did my first season of cross on a Trek 660 with a set of knobby tires. It worked great in dry September, but by October it got bogged down in the mud.
You can absolutely try to race, but based on the information you've provided, it is going to be a very rough go at it. As for the older equipment, you'll get a few odd looks but for the most part no one will care.
If you want to test yourself prior to the race, find the fastest group ride out there; I suspect the one you did probably isn't that fast (the tandems give it away). You'll definitely also want to get acclimated to riding in close quarters; for your own safety. Bike racing isn't like other sports, even the entry level of the sport is stupidly fast compared to the average recreational cyclist.
If you want to test yourself prior to the race, find the fastest group ride out there; I suspect the one you did probably isn't that fast (the tandems give it away). You'll definitely also want to get acclimated to riding in close quarters; for your own safety. Bike racing isn't like other sports, even the entry level of the sport is stupidly fast compared to the average recreational cyclist.
Planning on using the Moser Leader in photo once completed. Drop bars recommended over Bulls for TT?
#291
Version 7.0
[MENTION=497456]HPL[/MENTION] What is important for optimizing speed in time trials is body position. The height of the bullhorns on your bike i.e. the seat to bar drop will not allow you to get your shoulders low enough and your head out of the wind. You could lower the bars down as much as possible and then bend your elbows on the bike to lower the torso.
Even if you change the bars to drop bars, your position will be too high. If that is as low as you can go, so be it. Time trials are more about making every pedal stroke count and you can do that from any body position.
IMO, the bullhorns are not acceptable for group rides and mass start racing. When I was a supervisor at the velodrome, we would not allow mustache or bullhorn handlebars on the track and of course, many fixed gear riders like mustache handle bars. You need to change them to standard drop bars. The reason is that in close quarter racing, you can get tangled with other riders with bull horns. With drop bars, one rides in the drops which is a safer position and allows one to bump other riders or get bumped without mishap.
Even if you change the bars to drop bars, your position will be too high. If that is as low as you can go, so be it. Time trials are more about making every pedal stroke count and you can do that from any body position.
IMO, the bullhorns are not acceptable for group rides and mass start racing. When I was a supervisor at the velodrome, we would not allow mustache or bullhorn handlebars on the track and of course, many fixed gear riders like mustache handle bars. You need to change them to standard drop bars. The reason is that in close quarter racing, you can get tangled with other riders with bull horns. With drop bars, one rides in the drops which is a safer position and allows one to bump other riders or get bumped without mishap.
#292
Junior Member
Sorry in advance if this question has been asked, as my search abilities are lacking. If you missed the deadline to online register for a race, is cash usually the only acceptable form of payment the day of a race?
#293
Senior Member
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We have been using a Square the last couple of years to accept credit cards. More and more races are, but it's not universal and if you're doing a road race out in BFE there may not be reliable cell coverage. Every race I've done has always accepted checks (this might be one of the last few things I actually write a check for anymore). And of course, cash is always king.
#294
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
Bar type?
[MENTION=497456]HPL[/MENTION]Even if you change the bars to drop bars, your position will be too high. If that is as low as you can go, so be it. Time trials are more about making every pedal stroke count and you can do that from any body position.
IMO, the bullhorns are not acceptable for group rides and mass start racing. When I was a supervisor at the velodrome, we would not allow mustache or bullhorn handlebars on the track and of course, many fixed gear riders like mustache handle bars. You need to change them to standard drop bars. The reason is that in close quarter racing, you can get tangled with other riders with bull horns. With drop bars, one rides in the drops which is a safer position and allows one to bump other riders or get bumped without mishap.
IMO, the bullhorns are not acceptable for group rides and mass start racing. When I was a supervisor at the velodrome, we would not allow mustache or bullhorn handlebars on the track and of course, many fixed gear riders like mustache handle bars. You need to change them to standard drop bars. The reason is that in close quarter racing, you can get tangled with other riders with bull horns. With drop bars, one rides in the drops which is a safer position and allows one to bump other riders or get bumped without mishap.
I fully agree with your comments, I've actually never really rode with bullhorn bars, always drop; excepting building up a frame for a friend and testing it. I had it sitting around and wanted to see how it rode with bar end shifters. Are "barcons" a decent "old school" option in place of "brifters"?
If I install drop bars and my "position will still be too high"; what's left? Extend the stem reach, use a smaller front wheel or get a "funny" bike? Of course no matter what I ride I need to be in the proper condition as well as being able sustain performance in a particular position. I have tried "aero" bars, but not for any period of time and on a very ill fitting frame, thus sore body; so no reference from which to base a proper opinion on. I have smaller frames (49-50 cm) where I could have a higher seat position in reference to the bar, or use an extended post on my standard size frames (52-54 cm).
#295
Version 7.0
[MENTION=497456]HPL[/MENTION] I am not an old school guy with that knowledge. I had bikes from the era but I train and race on modern stuff and I have a road, track, time trial and sprint bikes set up specifically for events. But that is me.
With respect to racing and getting started in time trials, it is always a good idea to race what you have. You may love racing / time trials or not. The general rule for racing time trials is that results are 80% legs, lungs and heart, 10% brain and 5% equipment. Body position dominates aerodynamics and head position is the most important aspect of body position once the hip angle is set. As a new racer, you really do not have to worry about any of that other than do not get hung up on equipment since it is a minor component of results. Equipment can be a fun part of time trials and one wants to optimize speed and equipment matters when the time spreads begin to collapse between competitors. I can generate a lot of speed out of not a lot of power and that is due to technical considerations and mental focus not physiology.
I would suggest inserting the stem post farther into the head tube if that is possible. There may be old school stems available that do not rise as high as yours. And I would get the old school drop bars that have a larger radius. The larger radius bars will lower the drop portion of the bar and give you a lower body position.
More than likely, your saddle is too low. Why would I suspect that? Most racers saddle height is set for road riding and spinning. A TT setup, the leg is extended more and the rider tends to shift / rotate forward. In the old school vernacular this is riding on the rivet that gets its name from the rivets that were in the old leather saddles.
Here is a picture of the man himself Merckx. You can see, he gets pretty low but he is also bending his elbows. That is a fast position but hard to hold for long periods of time.
I cannot speak to bar end shifters. I hate all that old school stuff and prefer that modern shifting. I have electronic shifting and it is safer and faster since shifting buttons can be installed for different hand positions and allow riders to keep their hands on the bars at all times. This is more important in mass start racing such as crits. Good luck. Maybe others have some ideas for your setup and shifting.
With respect to racing and getting started in time trials, it is always a good idea to race what you have. You may love racing / time trials or not. The general rule for racing time trials is that results are 80% legs, lungs and heart, 10% brain and 5% equipment. Body position dominates aerodynamics and head position is the most important aspect of body position once the hip angle is set. As a new racer, you really do not have to worry about any of that other than do not get hung up on equipment since it is a minor component of results. Equipment can be a fun part of time trials and one wants to optimize speed and equipment matters when the time spreads begin to collapse between competitors. I can generate a lot of speed out of not a lot of power and that is due to technical considerations and mental focus not physiology.
I would suggest inserting the stem post farther into the head tube if that is possible. There may be old school stems available that do not rise as high as yours. And I would get the old school drop bars that have a larger radius. The larger radius bars will lower the drop portion of the bar and give you a lower body position.
More than likely, your saddle is too low. Why would I suspect that? Most racers saddle height is set for road riding and spinning. A TT setup, the leg is extended more and the rider tends to shift / rotate forward. In the old school vernacular this is riding on the rivet that gets its name from the rivets that were in the old leather saddles.
Here is a picture of the man himself Merckx. You can see, he gets pretty low but he is also bending his elbows. That is a fast position but hard to hold for long periods of time.
I cannot speak to bar end shifters. I hate all that old school stuff and prefer that modern shifting. I have electronic shifting and it is safer and faster since shifting buttons can be installed for different hand positions and allow riders to keep their hands on the bars at all times. This is more important in mass start racing such as crits. Good luck. Maybe others have some ideas for your setup and shifting.
#296
Barred @ Velocipedesalon
[MENTION=497456]HPL[/MENTION] I am not an old school guy with that knowledge. I had bikes from the era but I train and race on modern stuff and I have a road, track, time trial and sprint bikes set up specifically for events. But that is me.
With respect to racing and getting started in time trials, it is always a good idea to race what you have. You may love racing / time trials or not. The general rule for racing time trials is that results are 80% legs, lungs and heart, 10% brain and 5% equipment. Body position dominates aerodynamics and head position is the most important aspect of body position once the hip angle is set. As a new racer, you really do not have to worry about any of that other than do not get hung up on equipment since it is a minor component of results. Equipment can be a fun part of time trials and one wants to optimize speed and equipment matters when the time spreads begin to collapse between competitors. I can generate a lot of speed out of not a lot of power and that is due to technical considerations and mental focus not physiology.
I would suggest inserting the stem post farther into the head tube if that is possible. There may be old school stems available that do not rise as high as yours. And I would get the old school drop bars that have a larger radius. The larger radius bars will lower the drop portion of the bar and give you a lower body position.
More than likely, your saddle is too low. Why would I suspect that? Most racers saddle height is set for road riding and spinning. A TT setup, the leg is extended more and the rider tends to shift / rotate forward. In the old school vernacular this is riding on the rivet that gets its name from the rivets that were in the old leather saddles.
Here is a picture of the man himself Merckx. You can see, he gets pretty low but he is also bending his elbows. That is a fast position but hard to hold for long periods of time.
I cannot speak to bar end shifters. I hate all that old school stuff and prefer that modern shifting. I have electronic shifting and it is safer and faster since shifting buttons can be installed for different hand positions and allow riders to keep their hands on the bars at all times. This is more important in mass start racing such as crits. Good luck. Maybe others have some ideas for your setup and shifting.
With respect to racing and getting started in time trials, it is always a good idea to race what you have. You may love racing / time trials or not. The general rule for racing time trials is that results are 80% legs, lungs and heart, 10% brain and 5% equipment. Body position dominates aerodynamics and head position is the most important aspect of body position once the hip angle is set. As a new racer, you really do not have to worry about any of that other than do not get hung up on equipment since it is a minor component of results. Equipment can be a fun part of time trials and one wants to optimize speed and equipment matters when the time spreads begin to collapse between competitors. I can generate a lot of speed out of not a lot of power and that is due to technical considerations and mental focus not physiology.
I would suggest inserting the stem post farther into the head tube if that is possible. There may be old school stems available that do not rise as high as yours. And I would get the old school drop bars that have a larger radius. The larger radius bars will lower the drop portion of the bar and give you a lower body position.
More than likely, your saddle is too low. Why would I suspect that? Most racers saddle height is set for road riding and spinning. A TT setup, the leg is extended more and the rider tends to shift / rotate forward. In the old school vernacular this is riding on the rivet that gets its name from the rivets that were in the old leather saddles.
Here is a picture of the man himself Merckx. You can see, he gets pretty low but he is also bending his elbows. That is a fast position but hard to hold for long periods of time.
I cannot speak to bar end shifters. I hate all that old school stuff and prefer that modern shifting. I have electronic shifting and it is safer and faster since shifting buttons can be installed for different hand positions and allow riders to keep their hands on the bars at all times. This is more important in mass start racing such as crits. Good luck. Maybe others have some ideas for your setup and shifting.
I do have some newer components, and I did recently pick up a carbon frame set, but I've not done any building on it; more purchased as an oddity than a daily rider. Thank you for your time.
#297
Junior Member
Hi gals and guys,
I am lurker and don't really post a whole lot, but have a question about how to learn how to race. I am fast enough where a "B" group ride is too slow (unless I'm using it for recovery), but I am not fast enough to hang with the "A" group for their whole distance. Do "A" groups typically care if guys like me show up and try to hang on? Is there something I can say to them to let them know I am not as strong as them and that I am just looking to learn how to ride safe and fast with a group of that caliber?
Thanks in advance for you help!
I am lurker and don't really post a whole lot, but have a question about how to learn how to race. I am fast enough where a "B" group ride is too slow (unless I'm using it for recovery), but I am not fast enough to hang with the "A" group for their whole distance. Do "A" groups typically care if guys like me show up and try to hang on? Is there something I can say to them to let them know I am not as strong as them and that I am just looking to learn how to ride safe and fast with a group of that caliber?
Thanks in advance for you help!
#298
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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I guess it would depend on the group, but around here I think that’s all you would need to say. I’d also make sure you know the route and how to get home on your own if you get dropped. Possibly the B group is on the same route and you could drop back to the B ride if you get dropped from the A’s?
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#299
Senior Member
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Location: Sacramento, California, USA
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Another thing: Make sure you know where the ride "is on." A lot of the rides around here have neutral roll-outs, so the first few miles from the meetup are at mellow, conversational pace, and then at some point (it may be well-defined, it may not), it becomes a race. Here, the Tuesday Night South River Ride is neutral for like 8 miles as it winds through neighborhoods, but once it crosses the bridge into Yolo County, it's go time. First time I went, no one told me that, and I got dropped instantly. So don't be afraid to ask.
Also make sure to ask where the sprint and regroup points are, if any.
Also make sure to ask where the sprint and regroup points are, if any.
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#300
Junior Member
This is all good stuff caloso, thank you! The part I definitely would not have thought to ask about is when the ride "is on." I think this will be very helpful to know in order to prepare for when I am going to have to try and hang on.
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