Ways to lighten a steel framed bike?
#126
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#127
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#128
You can save a bunch of weight using modern carbon fiber parts and hollow cranks, etc. But the challenge is trying to save weight while keeping the 'classic look'.
For me, some low hanging fruits are:
1. tires- Conti 5000 or 4000
2. pedals: I use SPD pedals, and my lightest pedals are the Wellgo MG8 magnesium and the Ritchey Road Logic SPD pedals. These are both 240g or less. They are at least 80g lighter than the typical Shimano single sided SPD pedals. I had one bike with toe clips, and for that bike I have $20 Wellgo track pedals which are cheap and only 235g. use aluminum toe clips.
3. stems: welded CrMo quill stems - not as pretty as the 'forged' aluminum Nitto stems, but it's ~100g lighter. My 100mm HL stem is only 215g. Titanium quill stems are even better but they are a bit rich for my blood.
4. saddle- the lightest one I have is a cheapo chinese Romin copy with carbon rails. $22 and 160g. The next lightest one I have is a Specialized Toupe with metal rails. It's thinly padded but it's under 200g IIRC.
5. Handlebars : I have carbon fiber Easton and Kestrel 26mm clamp drop bars. They are both around 185g. But I do not recommend 26mm carbon bars because they tend to slip too much. The lightest aluminum 26mm drop bars I've seen are the 3TTT Prima199 (199g), Cinelli Solida (200g), Ritchey WCS (215g). There is also a 3TTT Prima 220 which is heavier than the Prima199 but it is a shiny greyish color instead of black so it's a little more 'classic' looking.
6. cheapo Chinese Titanium skewers- these are 50g for the pair- you save 80-100g over the typical internal cam Shimano skewers. But they only work for 130mm rear dropouts. They do not work for 126mm.
7. cheapo chinese titanium bottom bracket. Well- it's $38 so not exactly cheapo, but it's 150g- probably half the weight of a typical Shimano UN55.
8. headset- swap out steel headset for Aluminum. this one is a no brainer.
For me, some low hanging fruits are:
1. tires- Conti 5000 or 4000
2. pedals: I use SPD pedals, and my lightest pedals are the Wellgo MG8 magnesium and the Ritchey Road Logic SPD pedals. These are both 240g or less. They are at least 80g lighter than the typical Shimano single sided SPD pedals. I had one bike with toe clips, and for that bike I have $20 Wellgo track pedals which are cheap and only 235g. use aluminum toe clips.
3. stems: welded CrMo quill stems - not as pretty as the 'forged' aluminum Nitto stems, but it's ~100g lighter. My 100mm HL stem is only 215g. Titanium quill stems are even better but they are a bit rich for my blood.
4. saddle- the lightest one I have is a cheapo chinese Romin copy with carbon rails. $22 and 160g. The next lightest one I have is a Specialized Toupe with metal rails. It's thinly padded but it's under 200g IIRC.
5. Handlebars : I have carbon fiber Easton and Kestrel 26mm clamp drop bars. They are both around 185g. But I do not recommend 26mm carbon bars because they tend to slip too much. The lightest aluminum 26mm drop bars I've seen are the 3TTT Prima199 (199g), Cinelli Solida (200g), Ritchey WCS (215g). There is also a 3TTT Prima 220 which is heavier than the Prima199 but it is a shiny greyish color instead of black so it's a little more 'classic' looking.
6. cheapo Chinese Titanium skewers- these are 50g for the pair- you save 80-100g over the typical internal cam Shimano skewers. But they only work for 130mm rear dropouts. They do not work for 126mm.
7. cheapo chinese titanium bottom bracket. Well- it's $38 so not exactly cheapo, but it's 150g- probably half the weight of a typical Shimano UN55.
8. headset- swap out steel headset for Aluminum. this one is a no brainer.
#129
Well, there's this. But 1. It's got a carbon fork. 2. It's not C/V. 3. I don't think I'd trust ANY bike that weighs < 10 lbs, no matter what it's made from. But you could beef it up, add a couple kg, and still have an ultralight steel bike.For an existing bike, maybe the parts list is helpful, but again, not C/V.
Me, I like the idea of a lighter motor.
Me, I like the idea of a lighter motor.
#130
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One of my Covid projects last year was to see if I could build a 10kg light touring bike with what my parts bin could cough up. I spent many an afternoon weighing parts on the kitchen scales.
This is the result. Exactly 10.00 kg as pictured:
I ditched the horrible plastic saddle soon afterwards, and I am no fan of the flexy Modolo shift levers, but other than that it turned out to be a nice bike. The CLB brakes and levers were a particularly nice surprise. They feel great and their stopping power - with the original pads - is pretty awesome.
This is the result. Exactly 10.00 kg as pictured:
I ditched the horrible plastic saddle soon afterwards, and I am no fan of the flexy Modolo shift levers, but other than that it turned out to be a nice bike. The CLB brakes and levers were a particularly nice surprise. They feel great and their stopping power - with the original pads - is pretty awesome.
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#131
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There's been a time or two I've tried to get one fairly light just for the heck of it.
My current lightest steel framed is the Giordana XL a mid 90's frame built up with modern Campagnolo SR/Record parts. Still it's got it's steel fork, alloy cockpit, etc. The real weight concession are the carbon tubular wheels.
17 lbs, 15 ozs as in this picture. That Excell Podium tubing was light stuff.
Running 5 other steel bikes under 19 lbs fully built up and with pedals/saddles/ bottle cages/ etc. Usually the biggest loss I see comes from swapping in good modern wheels.
My current lightest steel framed is the Giordana XL a mid 90's frame built up with modern Campagnolo SR/Record parts. Still it's got it's steel fork, alloy cockpit, etc. The real weight concession are the carbon tubular wheels.
17 lbs, 15 ozs as in this picture. That Excell Podium tubing was light stuff.
Running 5 other steel bikes under 19 lbs fully built up and with pedals/saddles/ bottle cages/ etc. Usually the biggest loss I see comes from swapping in good modern wheels.
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#132
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So, what is the lightest vintage wheel? Modern wheels are lighter because the rims are carbon and have fewer spokes? Are the hubs lighter today?
I randomly clicked on a new Trek on their website. The Trek Domane SLR 7 Disc ($8,000) weighs 17.49 pounds. The frame, fork and headset ($3,300) weighs 4.18 pounds. If we are starting with a steel frame and fork weighing ~4.5 pounds, much of the weight difference would be in the components. I would be curious to compare component weights between vintage and modern to see how much is saved by the drivetrain, wheels, brakes, saddle, etc.
I randomly clicked on a new Trek on their website. The Trek Domane SLR 7 Disc ($8,000) weighs 17.49 pounds. The frame, fork and headset ($3,300) weighs 4.18 pounds. If we are starting with a steel frame and fork weighing ~4.5 pounds, much of the weight difference would be in the components. I would be curious to compare component weights between vintage and modern to see how much is saved by the drivetrain, wheels, brakes, saddle, etc.
I can't say what is the lightest vintage wheelset. First, what's vintage, how old and what are the constraints, for example the CR timeline is 1983 or earlier and no indexing allowed? Second, what is the design?
I can tell you about my wheelset, built for my 1984-ish Mondonico, setup "Retro-Roadie" for Campagnolo 2x10. At the time I weighed about 185 and now about 15 years later I weigh just a bit over 200 near-nekkid, so borderline Clydesdale. I still ride the same wheels. There has been one broken spoke in about 5000 miles.
What's in the wheels, with "best as I remember" component weights:
> Mavic GP-4 tubular rims, anodized aluminum with ferrules, 430 grams each
> Gommitalia Espresso 21.5 mm tubular tires hand-made with latex, 7 to 9 atm pressure range, 250 grams each
> 2006 Campagnolo Record 10-speed hubset with the original QRs, don't know the weight.
> Campagnolo 10 speed 11/26 (?) cassette, certainly NOT Super Record, guessing about 500 grams
> 32 holes each wheel, Sapim C-Xray spokes with steel nipples.
The builder (Steve Sauter, Ann Arbor, MI "Sauterbilt Wheels") told me they are 1500 grams /pair without tires and cassette. I weighed the wheels on the kitchen gram scale, 2490 grams/pair as listed. Subtracting the tires, we should have 1990 grams. Subtracting the estimated 500 grams for the freewheel, we should have 1490 grams, which is very close to the builder's claim.
So a good set of tubular wheels with excellent vintage mechanical parts can plausibly weigh about 1500 grams, without tires and cassette.
How could it be better? I think my cassette is mostly steel, if not all steel. I would guess Campy's lightest (only Campy cassettes fit on Campy freehubs) cassette saves about 100 grams.
Lighter rims? The GP4 was designed as a training rim, for a season or so of long road rides over local and race-like terrain. If it weighs a little extra, that just builds up the champ's legs a little more! Mavic (GEL280), Fiamme, Martano, Nisi, Wolber/Super Champion and Ambrosio made super-light track rims I think a little less than 300 grams each, and road race rims (Mavic GL330, about 350 grams). So I could save another 2*(430-350) = 2*80 grams = 160 grams potentially or plausibly saved. So my wheels if rebuilt with vintage/retro full-race gear could plausibly lose 260 grams, to weigh in at about 1490 - 260 = 1230 grams. There were of course other rim-makers back in the day, in France, UK, Germany, Argentina, and Japan, but I don't know much about them. Ukai and Araya are relevant brands, rattling around in my head.
FYI, these tubular rims were all really close to the same width and height, and many of them were dark-anodized. I have several pairs of Mavics in service and I've had no cracking or other signs of weakness related to stress at spoke holes. The difference in weight and hence strength was mostly based on thicker walls, when extruded.
So without carbon fiber and with conventional even vintage components, you can get down to between 1230 and 1500 grams per wheelset, complete except for glued on tires and a 10-speed cassette.
Durability will depend on design, condition of the parts, quality of build process, road, terrain conditions, weight-bearing, and rider choices. You can break anything, or you can make them last.
Last edited by Road Fan; 08-09-21 at 07:06 AM.
#133
My steel C&V bikes, built using mostly lightweight components and tubular wheelsets with 32 spokes, max. (But no Ti axled BB, hubs or pedals), average around 19 +/- pounds....... I think, anything lighter could start to negatively affect the bike's reliabilty.
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#134
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/weights.htm
#135
I have been working on a number of vintage race and sport touring bikes lately. The good ones all have frame weight of about 4.5 lbs and all up road weight about 24 lbs using clincher rims and street tires ,varying slightly with frame size.
I am wondering , what would I need to do to get the riding weight down to 20 lbs. or less?
What would be the low hanging fruit? Then what else ? trade offs between performance and durability?
I am not wedded to drop bars. Actually I would much prefer upright. It will be a city bike
I am wondering , what would I need to do to get the riding weight down to 20 lbs. or less?
What would be the low hanging fruit? Then what else ? trade offs between performance and durability?
I am not wedded to drop bars. Actually I would much prefer upright. It will be a city bike
#136
I remember reading a post on re@dit a couple years ago about a lugged Peugeot allegedly at 4.5kg, lots of drillium.
Tried to find that bike again countless times to no avail. If anyone remembers by any chance and can point me in that direction, it would be greatly appreciated.
As far as weight weenie'ism goes most times people do it as an exercise in itself, as these bikes don't really get ridden a lot.
My take for a ultralight vintage frame would be carbon everything and SRAM Red mechanical.
If it 'must' have a silver vintage look, Zipp makes silver components.
Tried to find that bike again countless times to no avail. If anyone remembers by any chance and can point me in that direction, it would be greatly appreciated.
As far as weight weenie'ism goes most times people do it as an exercise in itself, as these bikes don't really get ridden a lot.
My take for a ultralight vintage frame would be carbon everything and SRAM Red mechanical.
If it 'must' have a silver vintage look, Zipp makes silver components.
Last edited by Schlafen; 08-07-21 at 12:32 AM.
#137
Senior Member
method #1: start with a track bike.
back in 1975, Bicycling magazine reviewed a handful of track bikes, and one of these was the Panasonic Ultralight.
It was astounding for the time... it weighed 10 1/2 pounds and cost $4000.
No exotic materials... just remove a lot of material from just about any component. Not sure how much you'd want to really want to sprint on this bike, but might be just the thing for that hour record.
Steve in Peoria
back in 1975, Bicycling magazine reviewed a handful of track bikes, and one of these was the Panasonic Ultralight.
It was astounding for the time... it weighed 10 1/2 pounds and cost $4000.
No exotic materials... just remove a lot of material from just about any component. Not sure how much you'd want to really want to sprint on this bike, but might be just the thing for that hour record.
Steve in Peoria
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#138
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My Columbus SL bike weighs 8.0 kilos.
Titanium axles in bottom bracket, pedals and hubs
28 spoke wheels with Mavic Monthlery Legere rims
Regina Superleggera chain
Campagnolo lightweight freewheel
Titanium and aluminium nuts, screws and bolts everywhere
As low-hanging fruit I see the rims, the tyres, the freewheel and the chain. Replacing parts that move (e. g., the rims) helps more that replacing parts that don´t. Drillium doesn´t do so much (10 holes in the chainring equal 1 gram).
Titanium axles in bottom bracket, pedals and hubs
28 spoke wheels with Mavic Monthlery Legere rims
Regina Superleggera chain
Campagnolo lightweight freewheel
Titanium and aluminium nuts, screws and bolts everywhere
As low-hanging fruit I see the rims, the tyres, the freewheel and the chain. Replacing parts that move (e. g., the rims) helps more that replacing parts that don´t. Drillium doesn´t do so much (10 holes in the chainring equal 1 gram).
Last edited by Nuovo Record; 08-06-21 at 05:43 PM.
#139
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A better resource for C&V bikes is Damon Rinard's list:
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/weights.htm
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/weights.htm
#140
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One of the most proven, reliable ways to end up with a lightweight steel bike is to be short, or at least have short legs!
Lots of weight is gained as frame size grows.
Lots of weight is gained as frame size grows.
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#141
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So, you can save some weight with pedals. The difference between some old 105 pedals and a set of crank brothers candy 3 pedals is around 100 grams. You can go lighter by using egg beaters.
Tubular rims can lead to some weight savings. Reduced spoke count will be a minor savings.
You might shave off half a pound with the above.
Saddles weigh a lot. That would be the obvious place to look for savings. But, as others have said, they aren't a rotational mass.
Tubular rims can lead to some weight savings. Reduced spoke count will be a minor savings.
You might shave off half a pound with the above.
Saddles weigh a lot. That would be the obvious place to look for savings. But, as others have said, they aren't a rotational mass.
#142
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method #1: start with a track bike.
back in 1975, Bicycling magazine reviewed a handful of track bikes, and one of these was the Panasonic Ultralight.
It was astounding for the time... it weighed 10 1/2 pounds and cost $4000.
No exotic materials... just remove a lot of material from just about any component. Not sure how much you'd want to really want to sprint on this bike, but might be just the thing for that hour record.
Steve in Peoria
back in 1975, Bicycling magazine reviewed a handful of track bikes, and one of these was the Panasonic Ultralight.
It was astounding for the time... it weighed 10 1/2 pounds and cost $4000.
No exotic materials... just remove a lot of material from just about any component. Not sure how much you'd want to really want to sprint on this bike, but might be just the thing for that hour record.
Steve in Peoria
#143
Senior Member
Bottom of the barrel cheapo Dia Compe calipers are very light. Generic Flite knockoff saddles are crazy light. Folding tires. Lightweight inner tubes. Lots of ways. But the easiest way is to start with a Tange Prestige frame. Set reference points, for example, a light front wheel is <1000g all in with tire tube skewer.
#144
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I built up a lightweight bike for myself once. I started with a Cannondale Caad7 frame, a carbon fork, Ultegra 3x9 drivetrain, and some rather lightweight Rolf Sestriere wheels. It was about 19 or 20 pounds, and it was very fast, but it got stolen on the first day I rode it.
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Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
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#146
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I bought a set of Alto Velo A26 wheels and im going to put them on a 94 miyata. It seems stupid
#147
Senior Member
I've spent a lot of time and $$ trying to make my steel bikes as light as possible.
But in the real world of pothole's and rut's, a heavier and stronger wheelset isn't a bad thing.
And at my age they're are no races in my near future.
I would prefer to lose some of my extra covid weight.
But in the real world of pothole's and rut's, a heavier and stronger wheelset isn't a bad thing.
And at my age they're are no races in my near future.
I would prefer to lose some of my extra covid weight.
#148
I remember reading a post on re@dit a couple years ago about a lugged Peugeot allegedly at 4.5kg, lots of drillium.
Tried to find that bike again countless times to no avail. If anyone remembers by any chance and can point me in that direction, it would be greatly appreciated.
As far as weight weenie'ism goes most times people do it as an exercise in itself, as these bikes don't really get ridden a lot.
My take for a ultralight vintage frame would be carbon everything and SRAM Red mechanical.
If it 'must' have a silver vintage look, Zipp makes silver components.
Tried to find that bike again countless times to no avail. If anyone remembers by any chance and can point me in that direction, it would be greatly appreciated.
As far as weight weenie'ism goes most times people do it as an exercise in itself, as these bikes don't really get ridden a lot.
My take for a ultralight vintage frame would be carbon everything and SRAM Red mechanical.
If it 'must' have a silver vintage look, Zipp makes silver components.
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#149
Newbie
I have a Trek 460 from 1984. Steel frame, Tange I think. The bike was 24 lbs. I cold set it accept a modern wheelset, and put on a set of Neugent aluminum tubulars, and an 8-speed rear cassette. Rest of bike is stock, down to shiny yellow bartape. Have look Keo pedals on there.
The new weight, with pedals, is 20.4 lbs
The new weight, with pedals, is 20.4 lbs
I have been working on a number of vintage race and sport touring bikes lately. The good ones all have frame weight of about 4.5 lbs and all up road weight about 24 lbs using clincher rims and street tires ,varying slightly with frame size.
I am wondering , what would I need to do to get the riding weight down to 20 lbs. or less?
What would be the low hanging fruit? Then what else ? trade offs between performance and durability?
I am not wedded to drop bars. Actually I would much prefer upright. It will be a city bike
I am wondering , what would I need to do to get the riding weight down to 20 lbs. or less?
What would be the low hanging fruit? Then what else ? trade offs between performance and durability?
I am not wedded to drop bars. Actually I would much prefer upright. It will be a city bike
#150
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It seems to me that the whole weight topic regarding vintage steel is overrated, some of the ride quality people cherish comes probably from from the extra heft. I can understand the competitive and hobby nature of trying to make a bike lighter and that's perfectly legitimate but really unless used in actual racing I doubt a few extra pounds makes much of a difference, especially on flat terrain. Generally speaking, optimizing rider weight and all the extra 'stuff' we tend to bring along on a ride is a much more cost-effective source of improvement.