Racing Dan

Certainly you need some expertise sticking a tube in a tight TL tyre. I did just that today. Tube in a Pinarello cinturato velo. Not exactly recommended. Took a lot of effort and tinkering getting it in there without pinching the tube and finally getting it to seat fully. Wouldn't want to do that at the roadside. Btw, why isn't anyone complaining that tyre is stiff as a garden hose? Its the stiffest road bike tyre I've ever seen. Have a feeling ppl used to TL tyres forget what a normal clincher is like.

MinnMan

Yeah, I know the conditions were extreme, but weren't all those guys getting flat tires during Paris-Roubaix this weekend running tubeless?

datlas 

It’s only a few data points, but on my club ride today we went through an area full of potholes. There were two flats among 9 riders. The flats happened to the only 2 riders running tubeless. They both struggled to fix their flats and ultimately both failed despite trying a plug and tubes. There might have been rim or major tire damage, along with some user error.

That said, I am inclined to not endorse road tubeless on road tires. Gravel or CX, sure.

Atlas Shrugged

For those who choose to ride tubeless. The new Silca Ultimate Sealant is absolutely amazing. I am riding Schwalbe G One Speed 30 mm tires at 65PSI. Hit a piece of glass this weekend and the cut had to be 1/4 inch long. Sealed after about 5 revolutions and made it home without adding air. The tire was toast and lost some sealant but the leak sealing was astounding.

PeteHski

I'm sure some of them were. I've had 1 flat in 3 years riding tubeless road so it doesn't matter. When I was riding with tubes I was getting flats every few weeks on our local roads. It's the main reason I prefer tubeless.
There's no need to convince yourself tubeless is inferior to your tubed setup. Just ride and don't worry about threads asking about tubeless experience when you clearly don't have any.

WhyFi

Pretty much. It's great when people add their experience and I appreciate that (for the most part) people are genuinely trying to be helpful, but observation is not experience and some things don't lend themselves to a fair understanding through casual observation.

tomato coupe

Observing and noting other riders’ experience is no less valuable than asking someone on this forum about their experience.

WhyFi

Disagree. When tubeless is successful, it usually goes unnoticed. The failures are hard to miss. This gives a skewed perspective when it comes to second-hand observation.

Along these lines, I *know* that I've had punctures on team rides, though I've never had a flat in four years of riding with them. If I were to get a flat tonight, though, I can guarantee you that some of the old school guys would harp on me about how tubeless is more trouble than it's worth, because the failure would feed in to their preconceived bias and because they're simply unaware of the flats that I've avoided over the years.

With tubeless, I'll happily plug, or even pop in a tube, once every year or two, because I *know* that I used to get flats every four weeks or so. This trade-off is readily apparent to me, but it would mean little to the crew if they happened to be around for a bad episode.

tomato coupe

You're doing a good job of discounting anything that doesn't support your position. Observation of tubeless tire failures does not give a skewed perspective, any more than observation of tubed tire failures gives a skewed perspective. They both provide information.

Atlas Shrugged

We do have to consider confirmation bias which has a tendency to magnify in observational situations. My experience has been very positive overall and would never consider going back to tubed tires for regular road riding, long-distance touring and of course gravel. As technology progresses rapidly in this space we can only expect the advantage to increase over time. As stated previously the new sealant by Silca is transformative, it is that good.

WhyFi

I think that my position is pretty fair - it has consistently been that tubeless isn't for everyone. You need only look to my very first post in this thread to see that -

Who's arguing that an observation of a tubed failure gives a skewed perspective? I'm not.

As far as providing information, sure, but this is my main point: information is nothing without context. An 10-minute hassle on the side of the road is bad. An 10-minute hassle on the side of the road that otherwise eliminates 10-15 7-minute hassles is something that many would find to be a pretty fair trade-off.

tomato coupe

Confirmation bias is a problem only if you have already reached a conclusion because ... you're biased.

WhyFi

Everyone is a little bit biased - it's normal - and it's much easier to form and reinforce a negative bias if only negative outcomes are easily observed.

tomato coupe

You're arguing that observation of a tubeless tire failure gives a skewed perspective. If that is true, then observation of a tubed tire failure must also give a skewed perspective.

WhyFi

But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I'm not arguing that tubes suck because I've had to wait around for several teammates to fix flats over the years. I'm not arguing that people should go tubeless because my flat frequency with tubes was horrendous. I'm saying that people can only judge for themselves whether or not a trade-off is a good one, because only they know what's on both sides of the scale.

tomato coupe

You introduced the notion that the observation of failures is not valid. My comment was that the observation of failures is valuable. Don't blame me if you now think it is not relevant.

Atlas Shrugged

"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!"

Your logic continues to be flawed because a vast majority of those who ride tubeless have switched over from regular tubed tires and thus can be objective regarding which they prefer. For some they preferred tubed and went back for a varity of reasons however a vast majority stayed with tubeless because they thought it was preferable. The more recent the convert the more likely a positive experience because of the rapidly evolving technology.

WhyFi

I'm still at a loss as to where you're going with this. Maybe you could help me by pointing out where I argued any point based on the observation of tubed failures of others.

WhyFi

Yup. Most of those that staunchly argue against tubeless can fall in to one or more of the following categories:

tomato coupe

My comment was very simple:
If I observe a failure of tubeless tires, it is useful information. If I observe a failure of tubed tires, it is useful information. You discounted the former, claiming it gives a skewed perspective. If that's true, then you also have to discount the latter as skewed. But, why would anyone ignore the observed shortcomings of either?

Racing Dan

When discounting direct evidence, because the observer didn't ride the bike himself and when limping home at 25 psi doesn't count as flatting, TL is a sure fire winner. - Talk about stacking the deck! haha :-)

WhyFi

It is very simple - it's a straw man. I never argued the latter either way and it has nothing to do with my position.

TMonk

to the OP: Bad

Two combos (forget which tire/rim) that didn't seat even with sealant and a CO2 shot. I did have one combo work a while back but it was too hard to install so I had the shop do it. I have had many combos work on MTB that all seated and sealed with a floor pump. MTB has more ROI as well - lower pressures, more chance of punctures. Way more ROI considering how low the "I" is.

I ride in San Diego (mostly coastal) where goatheads and that sort of thing aren't a big problem. If I did and/or rode my road bikes off pavement more, I would consider tubeless. For me it's a (difficult) solution looking for a problem - I rarely flat

Redbullet

The main advantage of tubeless over the tubed is sealing the punctures "on the run". The main disadvantages are difficult maintenance and rim compatibility. But if you ride 23mm (probably also 25mm) road tires, the advantage critically decreases: the higher pressure and lower air volume makes often "on the run" sealing to fail. And many times a "Dynaplug" type of solution does not work here, since it is "spit out" by the higher pressure (I tried it). You need to remove the tire, then fix it with a wire and make 2-3 knots inside, to avoid it to be spit out. Then you are trapped in mounting back a tire which is not new anymore - it is a "PITA": I mounted a new TL tire only with a pump in 10 minutes with a sealant related to your hated “Stans” , but mounting the same tire 3 months later took me 1 hour with an air booster and left me with the floor full of sealant. The same when you need to periodically change the rime tape (for safety). You better buy a new tire. 28-32 mm TL tires maybe work better, but 23-25mm are a real pain and I don’t intend to spend thousands to change my bike to fit larger tires, just for the sick of TL.

Overall, I am not saying that tubeless is bad as a principle (on the contrary), but I believe this technology for road bikes still needs to improve a lot. It looks as a "shame" for many to go back to older technology (tubed), but I did it for the time being with my 23mm and I have no regrets - I saved a lot of maintenance time and some money. I'm looking forward to see further technological improvements, before I come back.

zen_

I don't do a ton of road riding, but where I live the shoulders and low traffic roads are jam packed with debris, which was causing a puncture like every other ride even on tires with a puncture belt. Going from 25c tires at 90-95 psi to tubeless 28c at 60-65 (155 pound rider) made a HUGE difference in comfort on my alloy Madone 2.1 too, and no more punctures. Interestingly, I was worried about sealant in the smaller volume 28c tires (with less sealant too) compared to the 42c tires on my gravel bike, and 2.2" on my MTB drying out a lot faster, but it actually seems to be the opposite. Since I don't do a ton of road rides, the sealant lasting 6+ months if I just keep the tires inflated and spin them a few times a month at least put the last argument against to bed.

A hookless, tubeless setup for road is something I am still lukewarm about though.