Hypno Toad

What is the difference between an electric bicycle and an electric motorcycle?

Discuss

I'll give this thread a starting story (why this is on my mind): yesterday I was doing a hard/fast solo training ride, as I came home on the Cedar Trail I'm averaging 20-22 mph and I get passed by an 'e-bike', the rider is doing 25+ mph without pedaling. IMHO this is an electric motorcycle and should be on roads (not non-motorized trails).

(just in case somebody needs to get OCD on the 'speed' thing - I was westbound on Cedar Trail which is a long false flat - 1% climb - and the winds were calm).

indyfabz

I agree with you, but...

Hypno Toad

To be clear: this is not an 'anti e-bike' thread, I simply think some companies are blurring the line between e-assist and e-moto.

Sorry if I'm sounding like a snob (it's kinda true, but I don't wanna sound that way), I respect e-bikes and know many folks that own/ride e-bikes. I'm happy that e-bikes are getting more people out on two wheels, e-bikes are bringing biking to a whole new group of people.

jwh20

Just a case where the laws, in this case likely the LOCAL law, has not kept up with technology. While it's highly likely that "motor vehicles" as defined by some statute are illegal on trails, the e-bike may not clearly fit into that category and so the local law enforcement are not really able to make any enforcement determinations. I do know that in my community the city specifically prohibited "motorized vehicles" from trails and sidewalks and this clearly includes "bicycle powered with engine or motor" in the ordinance.

https://www.cityofnoblesville.org/eGo...9465_68055.pdf

I encourage you to contact your local lawmakers and encourage them to work on something that applies to the situations in your area.

Hypno Toad

It appears we have it covered in Minnesota,

https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/cite/169.011

Clearly the bike I saw yesterday doesn't meet these criteria, but who's gonna enforce this... who's got time for that?

This e-bike wasn't a problem (not dangerous or anything), just the things you think about while riding alone.

Ironfish653

Not all e-bikes are created equal, some of the cheap ones, and a lot of the add-on kits are twist-n-go rather than pedal assist. And while i don't think your local constabulary is going to be dyno-testing every individual bike to come in to their jurisdiction, i believe that the 20 mph seems to be the guideline. If it can go faster than that (on flat ground) then (in VA at least) it's a moped, which encompasses small-displacement scooters and 'pocket bikes'

In your example, you were on a 'long false flat' running downhill, so just like you, the e-bike rider can use the grade to eke out a little extra speed.

I've been discussing this with a co-worker who is building a 2-stroke assisted bike with the intention of riding it to work. He wants to be able to keep up with 45mph traffic, and still use it on the MUP's. He can probably do it if he plays it cool on the MUP, and doesn't attract the attention of the local PD when he's ripping up in traffic.
In his case, i don't think it'll be for long. The bike is a chopper with 3-foot long forks, and he rides it wearing a viking helmet.

jwh20

That is, of course, another problem entirely. But operating a "high-speed" (at least relative to other trail users) vehicle is dangerous, so it should be a concern. You may want to have a discussion with the trail's managing authority about the situation, your concerns, and what might be done about it. Someone should not have to be injured or killed before they act. It may be a simple as educating users by posting signs, at least as a starting point.

Wildwood 

I have a friend who just bought 2 of Specialized top e-mountain bikes. Basically, they are motorcycles that you have to pedal minimally to engage the 'motor'. Not sure the top speed, but I look forward to drafting him until his battery goes dead then watch him pedal an 80+lb bicycle. HaHa. (he is probably too smart for that tho'). At age 70, and not having been a cyclist, it's good for him to be outside in the air.

General Geoff

The first motorcycles were simply bicycles with small motors put on them.

e-bikes are very much motorized bicycles so technically, they are motorcycles. Legally, a lot of places have carved out laws that classify them similarly to unassisted bicycles as long as the motors on them consume under 1,000 or 750 watts in power.

indyfabz

The I-95 of trails in Philly goes into a neighboring county. In the neighboring county, the trail is part of the county park system and is often patrolled by park "rangers." Earlier this year there was a guy on a bike fitted with a gas-powered motor. Motorized vehicles of all kinds and prohibited per parks department regulations. I reported the guy to a ranger in a truck (official motor vehicles are allowed on the trail). He said he'd keep an eye out.

But I would bet most trails are hard to monitor.

Hypno Toad

Right! I don't want to hate on e-bikes, I have buddy that's never been a biker because of joint issues, he got an e-cargo bike to haul his grand-kid around. Love it!

But I'd hate to have somebody on a high-speed 80 lbs bike collide with me on a trail...

I kinda hate myself for sound like the people that hate on the the single-track trails we're trying to build in my town. (yes, I'm a hypocrite).

Hypno Toad

We need cops on high-speed e-bike to catch and ticket these people.

Most of our local PD spend their time at trail crossings to ticket people on bikes that failing to make a complete stop.

jitteringjr

Interesting that they are capping the speed at 20 mph. By that constraint, wouldn't all e bikes available now fail to meet that?

Also how do you even interpret this?

So does it have to have a automated brake system so you can't pedal it faster than 20 mph? 20 mph isn't that fast for short periods of time and if there is any downhill or tail wind, then its very easy to surpass 20 mph. Sounds like a stupid law written by some bureaucrat who has never ridden a bike. I would imagine anyone familiar with E bikes and bikes in general would have written that part better. Maybe it should say the bike would be incapable of propelling the bike at speeds faster than 25mph when combined e motor and pedal assist are used in tandem.

Other thing about E bikes I like to point out is that if one is capable of sustaining 20-22mph on a bike, then pretty much, they have been riding long enough to develop handling skills and general familiarity of riding protocols. Now with E bikes, Here is 250 watts or more of instant power and you can ride at 25 mph, but sorry you have zero handling skills. I saw this first hand this month while mountain biking with my wife. Although she is is excellent running shape, she doesn't ride often like I do. So we get passed by two people on E MTB's. I stepped it up after they passed us staying back on the trail a few hundred yards when I see one of the guys just totally biff on a corner. Given how overweight the guy was, had he been riding a regular mtb, I doubt he would have been able to go fast enough to loose traction on that particular corner. I don't think he would have been fast enough on a regular mtb to even pass my wife.

tagaproject6

And there is already a section dedicated to your discussion:
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-bikes/

TimothyH

Elvo

Jarrettsin

Fine if you have to pedal, I'm glad it helps people get out there that normally would not be able too!
But bike you can just turn the throttle and go! That's a motorcycle and should be regulated as such.

UniChris

Apparently you can register an electric moped in NY state and legally operate it as a road vehicle in NYC, if it was built with the safety features required of mopeds

Electric Moped Sharing Service Launches in Brooklyn; Private Cars Increasingly Pointless: Gothamist

Electric transport is definitely an interesting idea. But policy wise, it's really unclear why the debate gets caught up in the seemingly unfounded idea of why an electric motor vehicle with a bicycle-style frame should merit special treatment over a comparable power system on a flat floor moped frame or a stand-up scooter one.

Pedal assist is perhaps a unique category, in that you are literally going through the motions of riding a bicycle.

But otherwise, if it has a throttle, shouldn't the regulations that determine if it needs registration and licensing, and can be operated on paths or only on roads, focus on its speed/power, and safety systems, not the style of frame?

There's lot of reason to believe that categories of people who would not ride a bike shaped object (especially in nicer clothes) would try the other forms (especially in share fleets), so coming up with a sane policy for low speed electric individual transit - that focuses on capabilities rather than making empty arguments about what is and isn't a "bicycle" would make a lot of sense.

In my opinion, a throttle electric transporter that is going to be legal on bike-specific infrastructure should by regulation be tuned to be no more than the speed of an average adult casually pedaling, including speed reduction on climbs. Ideally it would be at the "passed by as many pedal bikes as it passes" point. And ironically, that fine balance is easiest to get right in a share fleet - you could literally have a city council debate if the speed should be raised or lowered a mile per hour in next year's firmware update.

thumpism 

I suspect the breakdown will eventually be along California's lines that if it has pedals with which you can propel it then it's a bicycle of some sort, just as a gas moped can be propelled by pedaling, although you would not want to go far like that.

Virginia will probably work out its own version as it did with petroleum mopeds, but that does not mean that someone with an actual un-pedalable scooter doesn't squeeze by the rules. I know a guy with a Honda Elite 250 scooter who got a moped plate for it. That should not have happened.

fietsbob

Electric motorcycle has been designed around a motorcycle frame, wheels brakes .

fietsbob

Another

fietsbob

Maybe a pedal assist electric , vs a hang on and turn the 'throttle' no pedaling needed..
bicycle?

Here MTB motor converted Electrics , are bicycles as far as the Corporate owners
of vast amounts of timberlands are concerned.

so a growing number of Hunters buy them , and go Elk hunting.. in that season..

burnthesheep

The absolute answer: gears and manual input

The long answer: no electric assist bicycle should be allowed on a multi-use trail or on a trail or cycle path with manual bikes. E-bikes however should be protected by bike lanes on the roads the same as bicycles and think their adoption would be a huge help in traffic and pollution. In Europe, the e-bike is largely a tool to commute to and from work. In the US, it is largely a toy, as not many cycle to work.

That sums it up nicely for me.

Doug5150

It's whatever you want it to be, kid.

Now, for the next question: who are you, and why should anyone else care what you think?
,,,,
Note that there is lots of pedestrians that use MUPs and who think that ALL adult bicyclists are going too fast, even without motors. They think that all adult bicyclists should be using the street instead...
So why don't you get rid of that silly bicycle of yours, and walk nicely like everyone else?

Hypno Toad

Predicable response. Thank you for your input.

BTW - the same ride that included this electric motorcycle (moped?) on a non-motorized trail, it also included a moron screaming out his car window for me to get on the side-path. I was riding above the road's posted speed limit, and he was going the other direction ... So there are a lot of idiots in cars that think all adults should get their bicycle off the road.

Also open the link I posted about the Cedar Trail, this is how our non-motorized trails are designed. I'd never ride 20+ mph on a MUP, like West River Road/Trail (reference the story in the paragraph above).