New wheel, old steel bike. Powerful stroke sends wheel into left chainstay
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Brighton, Michigan
Posts: 662
Bikes: Optima Baron LR, '14 Nishiki Maricopa,'87 Trek 330 Elance, '89 Miyata 1400, '85 Peugeot PGN10, '04 Fuji Ace, '06 Giant Rincon, '95 Giant Allegre, '83 Trek 620, '86 Schwinn High Sierra
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Liked 163 Times
in
107 Posts
New wheel, old steel bike. Powerful stroke sends wheel into left chainstay
So I need a good solution. I'm running new 650b wheels on a 1984 Nishiki Prestige. If I'm pedaling smooth and not forceful, no issues. However, if I decided to stand on the pedals and give a forceful stroke, the modern rear skewer cannot hold the wheel, and now the wheel is pushed over to the left chainstay.
Are there any good skewers with a good bite that can hold this. I can take my newer skewers and really torque the wheel down, and this holds most of the time. But, I do assume a better solution is out there.
Are there any good skewers with a good bite that can hold this. I can take my newer skewers and really torque the wheel down, and this holds most of the time. But, I do assume a better solution is out there.
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,071
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4412 Post(s)
Liked 1,566 Times
in
1,028 Posts
Shimano skewers.
Likes For Kontact:
#3
aged to perfection
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: PacNW
Posts: 1,817
Bikes: Dinucci Allez 2.0, Richard Sachs, Alex Singer, Serotta, Masi GC, Raleigh Pro Mk.1, Hetchins, etc
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 839 Post(s)
Liked 1,258 Times
in
663 Posts
yes you'll want an old school skewer that can develop some clamping forces.
the Shimano ones from the mid 90s are good. DA 6500 series ?
/markp
the Shimano ones from the mid 90s are good. DA 6500 series ?
/markp
Likes For mpetry912:
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,725
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,585 Times
in
1,433 Posts
Modern hubs and skewers are designed around vertical dropouts, and lack enough holding power for horizontal dropouts.
You need to improve the bite enough to keep the chain from pulling the axle forward.
Better skewers are a step in the right direction and will help, but if you ride steep hills it might not be enough. I prefer to get bite from the axle faces, using hardened serrated lock nuts where possible. Otherwise, I "glue" coarse grit to the face with a nylon based nail polish or similar.
There's more than one way to solve this, but they all involve improving the grip of hub and/or QR into the dropout.
You need to improve the bite enough to keep the chain from pulling the axle forward.
Better skewers are a step in the right direction and will help, but if you ride steep hills it might not be enough. I prefer to get bite from the axle faces, using hardened serrated lock nuts where possible. Otherwise, I "glue" coarse grit to the face with a nylon based nail polish or similar.
There's more than one way to solve this, but they all involve improving the grip of hub and/or QR into the dropout.
__________________
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
Likes For FBinNY:
#5
ignominious poltroon
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 4,049
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2241 Post(s)
Liked 3,443 Times
in
1,802 Posts
Get the steel DT Swiss screw-on skewer, or one of the steel anti-theft skewers that require the use of an alan key wrench, and torque that thing until your hand starts to bleed.
Likes For Polaris OBark:
#6
Really Old Senior Member
If you want to go retro, get a solid axle & serrated nuts.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,380
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2488 Post(s)
Liked 2,957 Times
in
1,680 Posts
In addition to the other advice, double-check that the axle ends don't protrude past the outer faces of the dropouts. Otherwise, the skewer might be clamping partly on one or both of the axle ends rather than on the dropout faces.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Right where I'm supposed to be
Posts: 1,634
Bikes: Franklin Frames Custom, Rivendell Bombadil
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 117 Post(s)
Liked 209 Times
in
127 Posts
It would be helpful friday1970 if you had photos or at least told us what skewer you are using. I had an issue of my rear wheel slipping on a steel bike and finally realized the Performance brand external cam alloy/steel skewer was insufficient to hold the wheel in place. So I bought a lower end non-group specific all steel Shimano internal cam model from ebay(with the recessed nut for the lever), for a steel on steel clamp sandwich. Not one budge of the wheel since.
I don't think it necessarily be all steel though as I also have some alloy/steel Shimano levers on another steel frame that don't slip either. I've also used vintage Campy and Suntour steel QR's on these frames and they all hold w/o ever moving. So three cheers for internal cams
I don't think it necessarily be all steel though as I also have some alloy/steel Shimano levers on another steel frame that don't slip either. I've also used vintage Campy and Suntour steel QR's on these frames and they all hold w/o ever moving. So three cheers for internal cams
Likes For Garthr:
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Brighton, Michigan
Posts: 662
Bikes: Optima Baron LR, '14 Nishiki Maricopa,'87 Trek 330 Elance, '89 Miyata 1400, '85 Peugeot PGN10, '04 Fuji Ace, '06 Giant Rincon, '95 Giant Allegre, '83 Trek 620, '86 Schwinn High Sierra
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 225 Post(s)
Liked 163 Times
in
107 Posts
Early in the morning here and busy getting taking off to work. I'll take a few pics tonight and upload them
#10
Sr Member on Sr bikes
Likes For _ForceD_:
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Golden, CO and Tucson, AZ
Posts: 2,837
Bikes: 2012 Specialized Elite Disc, 1983 Trek 520
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 676 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times
in
430 Posts
Did you need to spread the dropouts to fit the new wheel? If so, the dropouts may need to be realigned. There's a tool for that.
And change the skewer.
And change the skewer.
Likes For andrewclaus:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,807
Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1944 Post(s)
Liked 2,164 Times
in
1,323 Posts
In 1984, your bike probably had 126mm dropouts. You did not state if the OLD of the new 650b wheels is 130mm. If this is the case then you either cold set the dropouts to 130mm or are just forcing the wheel into the dropouts by spreading them.
I cold set the horizontal dropouts on my wife’s 1986 Univega and the same thing happened, even though she’s not powerful and did not stand up out of the saddle.
Although skewers will help, I got an 80’s Deore, the real problem is the dropouts are probably not square/parallel after being spread. They flare out and no skewer is going to straighten them. Get the dropputs square/parallel and your problem will most likely go away.
You might still want to use a good internal cam skewer, but my wife eventually ended up using steel/aluminum external skewers.
John
I cold set the horizontal dropouts on my wife’s 1986 Univega and the same thing happened, even though she’s not powerful and did not stand up out of the saddle.
Although skewers will help, I got an 80’s Deore, the real problem is the dropouts are probably not square/parallel after being spread. They flare out and no skewer is going to straighten them. Get the dropputs square/parallel and your problem will most likely go away.
You might still want to use a good internal cam skewer, but my wife eventually ended up using steel/aluminum external skewers.
John
Last edited by 70sSanO; 02-08-24 at 07:42 AM.
Likes For 70sSanO:
#13
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,763
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1109 Post(s)
Liked 1,200 Times
in
760 Posts
Your bike probably has a horizontal drop out rather than the current type which is called vertical dropout. You need an "internal cam" quick release because it can be tightened more securely. As others have said, Shimano makes them, but so do many others. You can find one at whatever pricepoint you want online. Also most likely at a local bike shop, and maybe even for free if they have a box of stuff that they aren't using.
For vertical dropouts you can get away with an "external cam" QR, which are generally lighter and work fine.
For vertical dropouts you can get away with an "external cam" QR, which are generally lighter and work fine.
Last edited by Camilo; 02-08-24 at 11:20 PM.
#14
Senior Member
Your bike probably has a horizontal drop out rather than the current type which is called vertical dropout. You need an "internal cam" quick release because it can be tightened more securely. As others have said, Shimano makes them, but so do many others. You can find one at whatever pricepoint you want online. Also most likely at a local bike shop, and maybe even for free if they have a box of stuff that they aren't using.
For vertical dropouts you can get away with an "external cam" QR, which are generally lighter and work fine.
For vertical dropouts you can get away with an "external cam" QR, which are generally lighter and work fine.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,795
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3514 Post(s)
Liked 2,927 Times
in
1,776 Posts
Aside from a cleaner look, why does the inclusion of a cover make an internal QR work better?
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,236
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 436 Times
in
335 Posts
It's not the fact that it's enclosed that improves the action, it's the smaller hardened steel cam as opposed to a larger aluminium and plastic mechanism that gives better mechanical advantage and strength.
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,909
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,932 Times
in
2,557 Posts
It would be helpful friday1970 if you had photos or at least told us what skewer you are using. I had an issue of my rear wheel slipping on a steel bike and finally realized the Performance brand external cam alloy/steel skewer was insufficient to hold the wheel in place. So I bought a lower end non-group specific all steel Shimano internal cam model from ebay(with the recessed nut for the lever), for a steel on steel clamp sandwich. Not one budge of the wheel since.
I don't think it necessarily be all steel though as I also have some alloy/steel Shimano levers on another steel frame that don't slip either. I've also used vintage Campy and Suntour steel QR's on these frames and they all hold w/o ever moving. So three cheers for internal cams
I don't think it necessarily be all steel though as I also have some alloy/steel Shimano levers on another steel frame that don't slip either. I've also used vintage Campy and Suntour steel QR's on these frames and they all hold w/o ever moving. So three cheers for internal cams
Steel shaft because it has the highest modulus of elasticity of any usable metal. Twice that of aluminum and half again that of titanium. It stretches less. Stretch is the shaft relaxing and losing tension.
Internal cam design is simply better than external. Much more clamping force. You want to use a skewer made by a major manufacturer after the late '80s or so (I don't know when the change happened) and the cam shape was reworked to provide more clamping and a better lock when shut. I believe Shimano was on the leading edge here. In any case, any modern Shimano has the new cam. And all the Shimanos, of any price, have good construction and do the work of securing wheels very well.
So, el-cheapo Shimanos rule. You cannot get better, just lighter, sexier and lower bank balance. Go to your bike shop and ask for a $12 Shimanos of the correct length.
Skewers I use: Cheap Shimanos on my city bikes. Various on my 126 OLD 7-speeds. All internal, all steel skewered and probably the new cams but I don't really know. My primary 7-speed is getting re-vamped now so it will probably roll on with the new cam. Higher end Chorus and Ultegra on my best bikes. Early '00s, steel skewers and the new cams. All but one of my bikes is horizontally dropped. I'm not massively strong, nor do I have strong hands. I don't kill myself closing the QRs. Rear wheels only slip if I forget that the wheel is only in tight enough to not fall out. (I was working on the bike and needed to put it away to free the stand for another, say.)
#18
Senior Member
The fix: a 2mm spacer/washer under the quick release on the left side.
Likes For Dave Mayer:
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bastrop Texas
Posts: 4,485
Bikes: Univega, Peu P6, Peu PR-10, Ted Williams, Peu UO-8, Peu UO-18 Mixte, Peu Dolomites
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 969 Post(s)
Liked 1,631 Times
in
1,047 Posts
I continue to use light weight skewers on my wheels instead of the heavy steel skewers needed. I simply took a piece of aluminum and use it to fix the skewer in place. This might work for you...
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...fix-final.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...fix-final.html
__________________
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
No matter where you're at... There you are... Δf:=f(1/2)-f(-1/2)
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 6,763
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1109 Post(s)
Liked 1,200 Times
in
760 Posts
I think the reason the external cam ones are so ubiquitous is that they can be lighter, maybe cheaper to manufacture, and do work fine with vertical drop outs.
Likes For Camilo:
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,236
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 503 Post(s)
Liked 436 Times
in
335 Posts
I think "lightweight" and "available in colours" were both selling points when they first achieved popularity/notoriety, but "easy to make cheaply" was probably why the manufacturers liked them.
Likes For grumpus:
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: New Rochelle, NY
Posts: 38,725
Bikes: too many bikes from 1967 10s (5x2)Frejus to a Sumitomo Ti/Chorus aluminum 10s (10x2), plus one non-susp mtn bike I use as my commuter
Mentioned: 140 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5793 Post(s)
Liked 2,585 Times
in
1,433 Posts
FWIW the arguments about internal vs external cams us a distraction. Either design can be made to generate more or less clamping force simply by altering the rise.
The critical differences are the material and shape of the faces. Steel vs. aluminum, and dentated or formed to a pointed foot vs. flat and smooth.
Take a moment to consider a pipe wrench. Would you want one made of aluminum, or with smooth jaws that won't mar the pipe, or one with hardened, sharp teeth that bit and held in a way that would make a bulldog proud?
QR design went south when vertical dropouts eliminated the need for serious holding power. So those with horizontal dropouts need QRs designed for them. That these older designs happen to have internal cams is coincidence.
BTW there were quality external cam QRs back in the day, one if the nicest was by Simplex.
The critical differences are the material and shape of the faces. Steel vs. aluminum, and dentated or formed to a pointed foot vs. flat and smooth.
Take a moment to consider a pipe wrench. Would you want one made of aluminum, or with smooth jaws that won't mar the pipe, or one with hardened, sharp teeth that bit and held in a way that would make a bulldog proud?
QR design went south when vertical dropouts eliminated the need for serious holding power. So those with horizontal dropouts need QRs designed for them. That these older designs happen to have internal cams is coincidence.
BTW there were quality external cam QRs back in the day, one if the nicest was by Simplex.
Last edited by FBinNY; 02-09-24 at 04:42 PM.
#23
Senior Member
I continue to use light weight skewers on my wheels instead of the heavy steel skewers needed. I simply took a piece of aluminum and use it to fix the skewer in place. This might work for you...
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...fix-final.html
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...fix-final.html
Even with your fix, I would never use an aluminum quick-release; Despite it being 1/3 as stiff as steel (and sometimes more elasticity makes a better hold, hence some engines having head bolts that are super long and extend into the block skirt), aluminum is notorious for fatigue failure in high stress environments; Steel and titanium hold up much better under fatigue. Usually to make something aluminum hold up in fatigue, it needs to be designed stiff, thus my 35 year old Cannondale racer that rides like iron until fit with much larger tires. But the diameter of the quick-release is limited, so you can't increase that to get more rigidity.
Then again, most hubs are aluminum. Although this is one of many reasons I don't like radial spoking, it stresses the hub flange more.
Regarding someone saying steel has better elastic stiffness (young's modulus)... tungsten is about 2X as stiff, but yes, not a common engineering material, and it's about 2.5X the density, almost twice the density of LEAD (about the same density as depleted uranium). If you've ever picked up a piece of tungsten, you'll remember it.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 02-09-24 at 08:53 PM.
Likes For Duragrouch:
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,909
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,932 Times
in
2,557 Posts
Another tip - that everybody knows but few do. Lube those heads! I like to take them apart completely, grease the shaft and threads and put liberal grease in the cup and the cross holes for the cam shaft. Enough that grease squeezes out first use. Wipe clean. Clean and redo in 5 or 10 years. Your hands will say thank you. (And a real plus of the internal cam - nobody sees that pile of grease and it goes nowhere. Dirt doesn't get in there either.
And yes, FB is right. External cams can be mechanically just as good. But I doubt I have ever laid eyes on such a pair.
And yes, FB is right. External cams can be mechanically just as good. But I doubt I have ever laid eyes on such a pair.
#25
Senior Member
Another tip - that everybody knows but few do. Lube those heads! I like to take them apart completely, grease the shaft and threads and put liberal grease in the cup and the cross holes for the cam shaft. Enough that grease squeezes out first use. Wipe clean. Clean and redo in 5 or 10 years. Your hands will say thank you. (And a real plus of the internal cam - nobody sees that pile of grease and it goes nowhere. Dirt doesn't get in there either.
And yes, FB is right. External cams can be mechanically just as good. But I doubt I have ever laid eyes on such a pair.
And yes, FB is right. External cams can be mechanically just as good. But I doubt I have ever laid eyes on such a pair.