Roypercy

Hey all:

I'm going on Friday to look at one of these, offered for a great price. It was an object of lust for me back when they were new, but way out of my means. This one is probably 1974-1976.

I normally ride a 23" frame (about 59 cm). The seller says this one is 61cm, but with a standover height of 32 1/2" .That's identical to my current ride, a 1987 Schwinn Super Sport. I just don't know how to understand that compared to the 58cm frame of the Super Sport. The standover sounds fine to me, but I'm unsure of how the Raleigh sizing matches up to what I'm used to. The catalog lists these at 22 1/2" and 23 1/2". How do those sizes translate to cm? And since the standover sounds within my range, does that mean the Raleigh has a more relaxed geometry than what I'm used to?

Just wondering if anyone has experience with the sizing of these bikes before I waste my time and the seller's driving out to look at something that's too big for me.

I'd welcome any thoughts about the Competition. It's a lovely bike, and has that 1970s aesthetic that I love.

steelbikeguy

Raleigh measured frame size from the center of the BB to the top of the seat tube lug.
My '74 International has a 10 1/4" high BB, a 24 1/2" seat tube c-t, and the standover is 33 1/2" (with 700 x 25 tires).
I'm guessing that the Competition would be similar... but that's a wild guess. The Professionals were known, IIRC, for having high bottom brackets, so the Competition might inherit that tendency.

Steve in Peoria (just killing time until someone shows up who actually knows what they are talking about)

Pcampeau

Steelbikeguy is correct. A 23 1/2” frame will be slightly larger than 59.5cm. A 24 1/2” frame is about 62.25 cm. Raleighs are measured from the center of the crank to the top of the seat lug so according to Raleigh, the seller does not have a 61cm frame. I’m gonna guess they measured to the center of the top tube and what you’ll be looking at is a 24 1/2” frame.

juvela

-----

frame sizes were offered in one inch increments on the half inch as measured centre to top

from the information provided suspect seller example will be the nominal 24 1/2" size


-----

bark_eater 

I think thats a good deal, if its safe to ride. If I had the means and opportunity, I'd be looking at it.

Couple things from the photos.

The Brooks saddle is probably toast, so you'll need to sort that out.

The original high end Huret Jubile rear derailleur has been replaced with a lower end model. It might be perfectly functional, but these bikes have a Huret pattern drop out and other brands of derailleurs wont fit.

I've checked out a few of these frames and the craftmanship is all over the skilled or drunk spectrum. I have a competition frame in the attic with great paint. I'm pretty sure that's because everyone whos had it considered it unsafe to ride.. If your looking for a wallhanger let me know.....

The listed one looks like its been ridden, but maybe not as its built up now, but the sum of the parts value is more than the asking price. It looks like the flipper is selling off a bunch of bikes at fair prices, so theres less chance of a "catch" to the deal.. Good Luck

nlerner

That standover measurement doesn't jibe with the seat tube measurement. I'm guessing one is incorrect.

cyclophilia 

This has a hodge podge of nice components, well worth the asking price.

If the frame is too large you might list it on the "frame doesn't fit pass it around" forum and ask for a smaller size.

Note that there is a dent in the top tube.

Roypercy

I see the dent, it looks fairly minor to me. Am I wrong?

VRJAKE 

Not knowing how the seller measured, ya can't know without looking - just sayin. The pic, to me, looks like it's 58 or 59cm center to center.

Note this one has Nervex Pro lugs versus the Capella style. Interesting as I just picked up such a frame with the Nervex lugs and according to the Sheldon Brown website, the serial number dates it to 1966! But all other evidence, HS, BB, Crankset point to '73 plus minus date of the bike. A detractor for these frames is the Huret rear dropouts, not designed for Campagnolo or other common derailleurs due to placement of the stop being much farther forward - the Huret derailleur on it looks to be right for the dropout. Otherwise, these are wonderfully versatile and fine riding frames. Lots of tire clearance, fender mounts, should take a 27.2 seat post and English threading. This gives a lot of options for a build. Yet it looks pretty cool as shown.

Roypercy

That's what I wondered. In the photo it just doesn't look like a 61cm frame to me.

Roypercy

That's what I'm thinking.The seller's off-the-cuff response was 61cm, but when I asked him to measure the standover - because 61 just didn't look right - it was a respectable 321/2", which puts it in line with a 59cm bike. So I'm hoping the later measure was more accurate.

cyclophilia 

The dent appears to be minor - I would only be concerned if you were considering resale value. You might mention it to the seller as part of your negotiation.

Charles Wahl

I have a 62 cm (24-1/2") 1972 Competition frame, and it has a longer head tube than the one being pictured. It also has the Nervex Pro lugs. My guess is that this one is a 1972 (serial number beginning "G") 23-1/2" frame. OTOH, if those derailleurs and crank are original, then maybe it's later than '72. I would not be concerned about that top tube dent.

heidelbergensis 

Not sure if this is helpful, but I have a 24.5-inch (61cm c-c) '73 Comp, and this is what it looks like fitted with wheels:


I would concur that this is the smaller 23.5-inch size.

noobinsf 

Not to stray off topic, but what size tires and fenders are those?

heidelbergensis 

Pictured are 700c wheels with 32c Gravelkings and I believe the 45mm hammered V-O fenders. These frames just absolutely eat tires! Esp the models fitted with the Davis sloping fork crown:

USAZorro

My 1971 Competition (and '73 Grand Sports, and '74 International and '73 RRA) has a 21-1/2" frame and has 31-1/2" of standover with 700c wheels and 25-ish mm tires.

A 22-1/2" frame would have 32-1/2" standover.

The pictured frame looks to me like a 23-1/2" frame - which I expect would have roughly 33-1/2" of standover. The seller either isn't careful with measuring, or with typing.

Roypercy

Hmm. Guess I'll find out Friday

gugie 

Definitely a 23-1/2. I have a frame hanging in the Atelier in that size, and @Andy_K has one in that size. CTC would be just about 57cm.

Roypercy

Thanks! Should be very much in line with my '87 Super Sport which I've been riding comfortably for 5 years.

Roypercy

Well, I got the bike! It's in very good shape, much better-looking than the seller's pics (I'll post some later, I have questions about some of the components). The size is indeed 23 1/2", roughly the same as my 60cm Super Sport - maybe just a hair taller, but I can make it work. I'm blown away by how light the frame is.

Thanks for the help, everybody!

cyclophilia 

So happy for you.

I was hoping that this Raleigh would follow you home.

Roypercy

Reviving this thread - I finally got around to picking up a metric tape measure and Jake you were spot-on, the frame is 59cm c-to-c. The standover is roughly 32 1/2". I'm probably most comfortable with about a 57cm frame, (32" inseam) but I took the bike out for a little spin in the park and it feels like it fits me just fine. With the standover there isn't much room "for the holy spirit", as the nuns used to say, but I have long arms and a long torso and am generally comfortable on larger frames anyway.

I won't be able to really ride this bike until I replace the tires (there's a lump in the rear tire and they both look pretty dry) but already I can tell this bike is incredibly smooth. The frame feels straight as an arrow; although the Huret Jubilee derailleur was replaced with a cosmetically-challenged Huret Challenger, it shifts smoothly and quickly.

Here's a question for the Competition afficionados: what am I missing by not having a Huret Jubilee? They tend to be pretty spendy on the 'Bay. With the wheel and crankset replacements that already happened with this bike I'm thinking I don't need to be obsessive about being period correct. If I wanted to upgrade the Challenger at some point, are there any other derailleurs that would fit those dropouts i should be on the lookout for?

Ditto with the brakes. The original Weinmann center pulls work just fine - really well, actually - but I was eyeing some nice shiny Spidel sidepulls to match the Spidel cranks. Anybody replaced the brakes on their Competition of this era?

daka

Realistically, with a Jubilee you will be limited to a 24t (I've gotten a 26t to kinda work) rear cog using the bike's dropout mount. Using a Challenger or the lighter Success (same design but has titanium knuckles) that derailleur can be configured to accommodate a 28t sprocket. Aesthetically, I don't think the Challenger/Success can compare with the Jubilee - especially after the little plastic cover plate for the mounting screw has been lost or broken.

Murray Missile 

My '72 Competiton takes a 27.2 but my '73 takes a 27.0.