CliffordK

Yep, my point, without the big tall seat tube mast. In part dictated by the monostay design of the Electra.

So, did the seat posts also get different markings as the masts got taller?

And, of course, with those old steel bikes, they were designed for seat posts that were only about 8 inches long, not 2 feet long.

CliffordK

So a $2500 bike is "disposable". I guess I grabbed the photo of the cheap one.

$4000 for this one (and designed for taller riders, 5'3" - 6'3"). It has prettier paint. Still has the issue of a very tall unsupported seattube mast.



That is more than 10 times as much as I paid for my Colnago Super forty years ago!!!

veganbikes

I have had a decent number of folks come in and want to buy the incorrect size bike no matter what you tell them. Some people think that someone who sells and repairs bikes for a living is completely wrong and knows nothing on sizing. It doesn't happen often but it does happen that people won't listen to expert advice no matter how you frame it. I won't refuse to sell to a customer unless they are belligerent or causing problems but if not I will give them the explanation and warning on things and tell them to enjoy their bike.

In this case I would strip the bike and sell off components and buy a bike that is going to be a better fit. The Gazelle Medeo T9 is not a great bike by any stretch but for only about $200 more than the Townie you get a good upgrade in brakes (Shimano Hydraulic) in Shifting (Alivio/Acera 9 speed) in Motor (Active Line Plus) and a suspension fork. Not to mention the keyed-a-like frame lock, rack and a standard threadless headset (which in this case is a big deal should something go wrong down the line 1 1/8 threaded stuff is not common and never really was) You will still need to get the correct size of bicycle and follow the same rules for all bicycles like using minimum insertion lines but you will have a much better bike and for barely much more than the previous one plus some of those parts from the previous bike if you don't sell them will be compatible on the new bike should you have issues that aren't covered under warranty.

Yes it is theoretically possible to fix the frame but the cost just isn't worth it and if you had to have the seatpost that high you damaged it it is a sign that wasn't a bike meant for you. If you are truly desperate for a similar bike you could go to Schwift and they could build you a Bosch compatible frame and move parts over but I wouldn't put those parts on a nice handbuilt frame if I were going Gen 3 bosch motor it would be performance line Sport or Cruise but honestly I would rather have a performance line CX or Speed and have the torque to make hills more of a breeze and get a larger battery for more range or more time in turbo mode

3alarmer 

...I regularly ride on the River bike trail here, and get passed by all manner of e-bikes. I have yet to see one that I think will still be on the road ten years from today. E-bikes are going to fall prey to the law of diminishing returns on repair costs. Your Colnago Super OTOH, has lasted this long because you fix it yourself, and it uses pretty generic parts. My neighbors across the street bought a couple of Rad Power bikes a couple of years back. They don't ride them much, but they do ride them.

There is a Rad Power mobile service truck that shows up every four or five months, but I honestly do not know what he does for them, or how much it costs.

I looked at them when they bought them, and made approving noises and smiled a lot. But I would honestly be hard pressed to repair a rear flat on one of those puppies, even here in the workshop. They look like motorcycle tires. And they have the same inherent design flaw, with a long length of seat tube sticking up past the top tube. Reports are coming in that these tend to fail after a couple of years, even if you don't overextend the seat post.

The other thing I do not get on these e-bikes is derailleur gearing. It seems like that's something that would not stand up well to e-bike abuse. Honestly, I think a lot of e-bike users would be better served with a single speed hub, or maybe a simple IGH. My friend down at the co-op just ordered himself an electric bakfiets, from someplace in Germany. He spent the extra 2 grand plus for the Rohloff hub option. He's gonna try and use it instead of the second car they have. He's doing OK for money, so not a big deal.

freeranger

If you end up with the same size frame (a prior reply mentioned it's one size "fits" all), be sure to buy a very long seatpost that goes far enough into the seat tube so the same doesn't happen again. If you bought the bike in person, I am a bit surprised the shop didn't forsee your height requiring a longer post in order to avoid what happened. The minimum insertion mark should have been noted, seems that more than one error led to the failure.

WizardOfBoz

If you can get a replacement frame, cheap, and swap components that may be your best alternative. But the fact that you had the seatpost up so high suggests that the frame was mis-sized in the first place. If you are offered that frame, measure your inseam (go online for ways to do this) and consult both the shop and the factory. Then get a frame size for which the seatpost won't be anywhere near fully extended. That is, a properly sized frame.

But yeah, fixing an Al frame with that bad a distortion is tough. Aluminum generally has what is called hot shortness. It's brittle and cracks easily when the metal is heated to welding temperatures. Also, in the factory, the welded frames are post-weld heat treated. Which means that to get a factory-quality weld you'd have to strip and repaint the whole frame after you'd welded and heat-treated it. The welding, heat-treating, and painting are easier in the factory where you have custom jigs and fixtures, pre-weld heating, automatic welding, automated paint lines... Doing all that after market puts you in exactly the same cost scenario as a custom frame.

quasta

Thanks to all who have responded to my op. I'm grateful and impressed with the very useful information.
I have been unable to respond again until now, and am probably still prevented from posting photos directly here, but I examined my damaged bike again carefully tonight and took more close ups of he top of the seat tube, specifically the crack which extends down from the by-design "split" on the back of the top of the seat tube. This crack is almost 1 inch long, and from all the info from the great replies, I know this is bad news for my repair hopes.
But to first answer some questions and the like around this larger subject:

• I've learned a ton very quicly as a result of you fine follks of Bike Forums, as well as multiple trips back to the shop where I bought it, to examine the bike and discuss it further and get their feedback and input. I am green newbie about bikes but now slightly less green. The main lesson is: I need to take bike riding and bikes as machines more seriously. I've been an example of a lazy consumer. I'm improving.
• I indeed bought the bike at Epicenter Cycling, a small NorCal chain, as several responders guessed. I wish to defend them here. This store has been excellent in almost every regard. The main problem was that I bought a relatively 'cheap" e-bike for my wife who is 5'8" and slender and I'm 6'4" and sturdy. The seat was set appropriately for her height but I took the bike out and raised the seat without reading the manual, and rode it pretty hard on bumpy trails. I am to blame for the damage (. That being said, it would have been great if the store had warned me not to raise the seat post beyond the "seatpost minimum insertion line", but they can't warn customers of everything. Also the Electra Townie manual should have had this warning in large red font. Also the "seatpost minimum insertion line" should be dark red instead of a faint etching in the metal. I had no idea, but again I take responsibilty for being so casual as to not read the manual before taking off for the hills on this thing, the seat pulled up and clamped way higher than it should have been. So I guess "I'm to blame more than the manufacturer or the seller" might be more accurate.
• I can also see this as a valuable experience as I start to consider an e-mtn bike for myself. You can bet I'm going to be much more careful before during and after buying one. I may run my candidates by my new friends here when the time comes, in fact! ; )

As for my bike. Again I wish I could post my own pics but I think what I'm going to do is try to find a way to get the seat pushed down to appropriate height for my wife and expect to not move it up again, and then find someone to help me clamp it, perhaps with multiple clamps, to try to reduce the chance of the crack going farther down the seat tube. I'll probably post pics once this hack repair is done, to see what you folks think. I'm still musing.
I appreciate the notes on selling parts of the bike, if I do end up buying a wholly new one.
Btw, Trek was willing to be very reasonable about selling me a new one when they heard what I'd done. I won't reveal their price but it helps a lot in my opinion of the manufacturer. I'll send them a note on my thougths on improving their manual, though.
I don't want to do a massive repair job with welding, but I'm not sure quite what is next here, and am all ears from the experts who know aluminum and bike repair here. After I post 4 more times I can post photos. : )
Thanks again!

jccaclimber

It is particularly disappointing that you can’t buy a replacement frame, especially for something still in production! I wonder if they are short on frames and would rather enjoy the margin of a full bike. Good on them for offering a discount for the replacement.

I know a few SFBay area folks in frame building, but I’m not sure they do aluminum and I’m guessing they’d charge about as much as your discounted replacement would cost as it isn’t their main line of work.

On the plus side, you can get another post by replying to this. You can also get more posts by posting a hello thread in the new user section.

3alarmer 

...if this is your plan, it's not at all a big job to fix that post in place with a wire feed welder, set up for aluminum, with either TIG or MIG as your shielding gas. Maybe a 20 minute job. You can't heat treat the spots afterward, but in many cases, in a repair like this that will probably not matter much. You don't really need a frame builder for this sort of work, just someone with the equipment and experience to weld on thin aluminum sheet tubing.

If you are that tall, and that heavy, consider other frame materials besides aluminum for your own bike. And stay away from that particular seat post insertion and clamping design, if you can.

squirtdad

Clarification, is there a crack also? Original post noted bend, and pic showed bend at the weld and deformed seatpost "tabs"

if there is crack it would be good to know where it is and how big it is, as it could make a difference

squirtdad

I have tried before (with an Electra aluminum frame that had a head tube crack) and it was impossible to just buy a replacement frame. It seems this is not an option unless a manufacturer sells both full bike and frame only for a model

a replacement frame option might be to try to find one designed for the bosch mid in ebay or aliexpress or the like

70sSanO

This is everything in a few sentences.

Taking your wife’s e-bike out on some trails could be a lot of fun. Maybe it wasn’t being used a lot, I don’t know.

Throughout this thread it appears a cheap solution is desired as opposed to getting your wife back on the bike as quickly and safely as possible.

Personally, I wouldn’t weld in a seatpost for a bike my wife rides. If she is mever going to ride it, don’t fix it. If she “might” ride it, replace it. I’ll weigh the risks if it is for me, but I won’t make someone else assume those risks.

John

quasta

Thanks again to those who have provided useful knowledge and perspectives.
At this point the most useful information I'm using, to consider my next steps has been whether the bike I just bought 3 weeks ago can be repaired so it is a safe as it was when I bought it, if no longer adjustable in regards to the seat. It sounds like the most knowledgeable among us may agree, "maybe". I certainly won't accept a repair which results in a bike which is less safe than what I bought. No one here on Bike Forum chooses safety entirely over cost or they would simply push all their bikes to the curb and tape a "free" sign on them, and never ride again.
To answer some useful recent notes:
Squitdad: yes, there is a crack. I wish I could post a photo, it would stand for a thousand words of text. As described in my 2nd post, it is about 1" long and extends down from the "by design" split in the top of the seat tube. Eventually I'll post better photos if this dialogue goes that long... The crack is my current main concern with any sort of repair, expensive or less so. I don't think I can get a replacement frame and pay to have the bike reassembled around it for less than the price of the new replacement bike that Trek is (generously) offering me. The estimated cost in the time difference (between trying to fix this one and just accepting the new one) is factored in too; also not cheap.
3alarmer: Thank you. This repair/metal related info is among the most useful specific things I've learned. After damaging this bike I decided I would not ride it again. It is plainly not for big 'ol me. It was bought for my wife and I was foolish to ride it. I will use my old mountain bike, then buy the right e-mtn-bike for myself someday.

Polaris OBark

Will Trek permit you to apply this as a credit to a different e-bike? If so, it might be worth exploring different options. The beach cruiser design really is a bit of an ergonomic disaster, and what happened to your frame, even if it isn't covered by the warranty, is certainly a heads-up in terms of its less than robust design.

Polaris OBark

My wife has an ebike that is in essence a normal road bike with a motor assist for the crankset, complete with normal road (105) front and rear derailleurs. The motor cuts out very briefly when you shift, essentially to prevent the kind of abuse you mention.

quasta

I'm thinking I'll try to contact a bike shop or metal shop to explore specifics on the possibility of getting the seat post way down into the seat tube, and welding/bending/securing it somehow.
I should finally be able to post photos so I'll put my best ones up now, in case anyone can point me to a good bike shop that does anything like this sort of special repairing (in the SF bay area) and/or a metal shop specializing in aluminum who may be willing to talk with me.
Thank you!

quasta

sweeks

If a replacement frame were not available and the *only* officially sanctioned remedy were to buy a new bike, I would do the following:
1) Obtain a seatpost that would extend well below the level of the weld between the seat tube and the seat stay,
2) Drill a hole in the back of the seat tube, at the base of the slot, large enough to include the fractures in the tube,
3) Crank the bent tube back into reasonably normal position (using "airplane clamps"?),
4) Re-install the seatpost clamp.
5) Make a mental note never to do such a bone-headed move again!
The worst that would happen is that the top of the seat tube would eventually crack completely off. With a long enough seatpost, the saddle wouldn't fall off; it would just rotate.

CliffordK

Ok, we missed that part on the earlier post. It was clear that you were tall for the bike.

I still think the tall mast makes the minimum insertion mark in the wrong spot, and the post should be in even deeper.



It looks like the seat tube was necked down at the monostay.

That means it is incredibly hard to judge from the photo what is straight and what is not straight.

It also means that you may not have any support for the seatpost down below the monostay anyway. So bury it a foot deep in the frame, and it gives minimal extra support. Not my preference of a design.

The frame may not be as badly bent as it looks. If it was me, I'd probably try to bend it back, either using the seatpost you have as a guide, or go buy a cheap 27.2 post used at the bike coop. I'd likely be pretty aggressive with a hammer. I don't know if I'd use heat. One could anneal it, but then hardening it would be a pain. So, I'd likely try working it cold.

Probably dab a bit of weld just at the bottom of the groove. Slightly annealing it at that point may not be bad anyway.

Then, of course, set the seat for your wife and don't ride it yourself!!! Get yourself a much larger frame if you wish to ride it.

Listen for creaking, watch for cracks, etc.

squirtdad

what is the last pic of, how a bike would have looked new?

the crack is really much more of a complete fracture, and is already going multiple ways, which suggest more structural failure

I fully admit to being conservative on these things, but to me the frame has serious structural damage in a critical area, and I would not ever trust it to ride for my self or anyone else

I looked for frame builder sources in the bay area, but no one builds in aluminum that I can find

rosefarts

You could go full redneck on it.

-Cut most of the bent tube above the weld off.

-Dilate it back to the proper size using progressively larger rods. A hammer and grease.

-Once you’ve got the seatpost moving, insert it to the exact spot you want it.

-Drill some holes through the seat tube and seat post.

-Set it in place with several self tapping screws.

Hopefully you’ll never need to adjust it again. It’ll probably be strong enough. Maybe.

XxHaimBondxX

I probably would just hammer the seat post in, which would somewhat straighten the frame. Then a few clamps around the Crack. Not pretty, but beats buying a new bike. Like the post above, Hopefully you'll never have to adjust the seat.

quasta

Thanks, Squirtdad, rosefarts and XxHamBondxX, for the additional input/ideas.
I've found a bike repair shop I'm going to bring the bike in for an evaluation tonight, and am sharing with him some of the most specific suggestions from here, that I tend to agree with.
And to Squirtdad's question about the last photo, showing a white undamaged frame at the top of a seat tube: yes, this is the exact same model bike, undamaged, for general reference.
I was sad to hear your concern that the crack is more like a "fracture", and examining it again with that observation in mind, yes, that may be so. That suggests to me (not being an expert but also not being wholly ignorant of physics) that the quality of the AL used may have just been slightly inferior, or that I just really wrecked that section of metal, and it is indeed compromised.
However, I do hold out hope that it can be repaired to a perfectly safe state, with the right combination of seat mast length insertion, maybe some minor welding, and certainly some ugly-but-effective clamping efforts. The repair guy I've found is very experienced and has many excellent reviews from customers, so we'll see. If I get this thing up and running again and feel good about the safety concern, I'll try to post "after" pics here, as another thanks for the help received!

Polaris OBark

RockLobster in Santa Cruz

ClydeClydeson

That frame is 100% pooched. Aluminum will likely crack further, or at very least weaken significantly, if it is bent back to straight. And the crack is terrible. If it weren't so badly bent and the crack didn't go down so far I would suggest cutting the top of the seattube of the frame off clean a few inches above the weld and adding an external seatpost clamp. However, the way the frame is bent means that it will have to be straightened to get the post in at all, and the crack goes so low that there likely isn't enough room above the weld for a clamp.

The wise path to take would be cutting the frame into bits and throwing it in the recycling, sadly. If whatever kluge you attempt fails while your partner is riding, it could result in a crash or loss of control and could lead to a more serious incident.