shokhead

After reading most of the no need to have a car post,i can really see why drivers think cyclist are A-Holes. Dont forget,cars have as much of a right as bikes. If you can be car free, fine but dont rag on the ones that need,want cars. I think its cool if you can get away with it but i'm a big boy and nobody has brainwashed me. I LIKE CARS. I LOVE MY CAR. I HOPE I ALWAYS HAVE A CAR,A FAST ONE. I happen to be a cyclist.

TuckertonRR

I like bikes....I've always liked bikes..... I hope I always have a bike.....a FAST bike...



my bike goes faster than your bike!! hahahaha!!!!!!!

pakole

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I think we have reach the conclusion of this conversation. Some people do not want the extra responiblity and financial cost that is associated with a car, while others like the ease of use and speed able with a car, so let's just leave it at that.

af895

DataJunkie and FXjohn,

The point I'm making is: suburbs were originally much more livable places. You didn't even need a car to live in one. Every corner had a butcher, a baker (a candlestick maker?). In Europe, this is still common and in Canada, I'm happy to say we don't do too badly with this either.

I've lived in the US. This is NOT the way US suburbs are planned. You DO practically need a car to get around most US suburbs and certainly in rural areas.
It doesn't have to be that way and it hasn't always been that way.

Same question: have you seen the film "The End of Suburbia"? Disregarding the points it makes on "peak oil," it raises some very good points about suburban planning.

My next project, just for you guys, is to take a digital camera on a 15 minute walk around my suburb. Over the course of that walk, you'll see grocery stores, banks, video stores, vets, hair salons, clothing stores - anything you can imagine needing to "live." Many suburbs aren't planned so well.

I have no issue with cars or car ownership. The more important issue is why do we seem to depend on them and are there ways, as a species, we could break some of that dependence? Better urban planning would be a start. In the meantime, there are a lot of places where you really have no choice but to own one. A 10mile drive to the nearest shopping center isn't conducive to cycling.

timmhaan

great addition to the living car free forum!

shokhead

I've never seen a fast bike,only a fast rider.

shokhead

Thanks!

budster

You are in the right ballpark.

But...

Some want to have a car, but without a great deal of expense. This is what the OP is driving at (no pun intended). Assuming it's already paid for, and doesn't cost much to maintain, why not have a car? Or maybe that could be better said: if it's not costing you much, why get rid of a car you already have?

Using myself as an example of this, I keep my old beater because I have tasks for which I feel my old beater is the best (simplest and least expensive) tool.

For some carfree folks, it's more than just "not want[ing] the extra responsibility and financial cost," it's a moral choice grounded in the belief that car culture does so much harm that owning a car is immoral. I share that belief to the extent that I believe unnecessary car use is immoral. What's "unnecessary?" That's between you and your conscience (if applicable).

Also, for some car owners, it's more than just "ease of use and speed," it's the ability to live, work and/or raise kids in places they couldn't do these things without a car. This is also a choice based on values, though many deny they have any real choice -- and some people do have more choice than others.

We shouldn't have to choose between a healthy, moral life and a fulfilling, rewarding one. Good city and regional planning can give more of us the best of both worlds: a wide range of opportunities (economic, social, cultural, et cet) and all vital services (education, health, et cet), entirely accessible by public transport, foot or bike.

YMMV.

I-Like-To-Bike

Not exactly; a more accurate statement might be that some posters don't need/want a car because their chosen lifestyle assumes/seeks no responsibility for others' transportation needs.

af895

(emphasis added)

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I-Like-To-Bike

I can't speak for Canadian places.

But where in the U.S. suburbs or rural areas has it NOT been this way since the 30's. Where are those U.S. suburbs that had a butcher, a baker or candlestick maker on every corner AND had nearby significant employment opportunities for someone besides the butcher, a baker or candlestick maker?

timmhaan

well, i think the older suburbs based off of large cities like new york, philly, boston, chicago, etc. were like that. now, those suburbs have merged with the city and became neighborhoods instead. but they were considered suburbs at one time...

I-Like-To-Bike

Possibly; but the employment opportunities were in the city; which may have been accessible by an efficient trolley/rail system. Even if those trolleys and rail magically reappeared today to the suburbs, few if any suburban residents would choose give up personal transportation to share public transportation "opportunities" with the current residents of inner cities who have no economic choices.

KrisPistofferson

I don't own a car, I'm car-free. I just don't condemn people who have not made the same choices based on various factors in their individual lives. Sound rational? Those cars are not "huge," nor is the house. It seems like FX has a pretty good setup to me.

pakole

Yes, I know I did not cover every single point on each side, but I wanted this interesting conversation to end on a positive note before name-calling or religous postulation really started.

cooker

Nobody's denying anybody anything..this is just forum for discussion of different attitudes and choices.

cooker

No.

cooker

Don't forget, this is the "living car free" forum. What did you expect?


ROFL!

Roody

Exactly right. So what's wrong with Forsyth, MO? What can folks do there to make the area more livable and especially more bikeable?

You and so many others are experts at pointing out the obvious. "It's easier in NYC." "It's harder if you have kids." "I don't have time to ride." "I don't know how to change brake pads." "I can't get the dogfood home from the Walmart." "The traffic around here is murder." And so on ad infinitum. Many of these are legitimate reasons to keep a car, some are just excuses for a lack of trying.

Let's take the next step, if we agree that car and oil dependence are damaging to our society. What can we, as individuals and as a society, do to make it easier for country folks, suburbanites, families, etc.? What changes need to be made in land use plans, zoning laws and traffic patterns? Most important, which hindrances are actual fatal flaws in the infrastructure and which merely reflect a lack of imagination?

Roody

Very well put, especially the last paragraph. Even car owners must, if they are rational beings, realize that our society has been engineered for the automobile. That's not a criticism, just an observation. That which has been engineered can be re-engineered, and eventually will be. Also just an observation.

Brian

Our little suburb over here looks like Main Street America, circa 1950. Yeah, we have 5 pubs within walking distance, but 2 streets over we have 2 banks, a post office/newsagent, the family doctor, a mini-grocery, a shoe store, 3 fish & chip shops, a decent cafe, the veterinarian, 2 realtors, a jeweller, a bakery, a TAB, a chemist, and a few other specialty shops. My wife, who doesn't drive, finds this very convenient, as would anyone.

The only employment I found at a decent wage is off a main highway, with no public transport. I rode a few days last year, but it's not really safe to ride on the side of 80 or 90Km/h roads in a major transport corridor. My wife works at the hospital, and starts at 6. The first bus is at 7:07AM. Her knees could not take the long, steep climb to the hospital. I'm not making excuses, as I have no need to. We try to ride our bikes when we can. Do we ride to the local fruit barn, and buy poor quality produce, or do we drive out of town to the one that has nice produce? And with 3 kids in the house, doing a full week's shopping by bike is not really feasible. We do what we can to minimize our impact. That's all we can ask of anyone else.

Roody

Nor do I condemn him or anybody else who must have a car due to shortfalls in the design of their environments, which might even include a majority of North Americans.

I do quarrel with (not condemn) those who accept current land use patterns as a given, while never questioning the design assumptions that have made our infrastructure so hostile to those who would prefer not to have a car. If you can't live without a car, at least try to understand the reasons, and realize that generations of government planners have stolen your options in order to benefit certain industries.

I also will kindly (I hope) dispute with those who mistakenly believe that they cannot live without a car, when they have not tried creatively to surmount the various obstacles they imagine stand in the way of carfree living.

I would much less kindly dispute those (not you or the OP) who dare to imply that those of us who don't drive cars are irresponsible hippies who can't handle modern life in the big city. Except I think it's better to ignore trolls.

Brian

Roody, I hope you find something of interest in this tidbit. At the bike shop where I work for a few hours a week, a very nice couple came in to buy helmets the other day. Neither had an Aussie accent, nor did they have the same accent. Turns out that they're from England and Scotland by way of Northern California. Naturally, I asked what brought them to Newcastle. Their response? They were tired of living on top of their neighbours, and wanted to live someplace with a bit more space.

Roody

Well England and Scotland were deforested by the 15th century. Then they came over here and deforested my Michigan in less than 50 years, by 1900. Don't turn your back on them out there or they'll take you trees too.

Seriously, the need for space is certainly one of the "needs" driving this insane society. I still can't figure out why my taxes have to go to pay for the sewer hookup of somebody who chooses to live on God's quarter-acre, 25 miles from town. I also helped pay for the freeway interchange that makes possible the 50 minute commute from his McMansion that he likes to cuss about every afternoon. And then he gets home, garages his SUV, and brags about how hard *HE* worked to enjoy life in the "country."

FXjohn

Haven't been to the UP lately?...THERE'S GOD'S COUNTRY...you can HAVE Florida

Just kidding...let's ride up north some time, roody