Single question to assess shade tree mechanics?
#76
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,366
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6220 Post(s)
Liked 4,221 Times
in
2,367 Posts
He said bikes never need "annual" maintenance, IIRC.
Giving a bike a full & complete tune up, cable change, bearing repack, etc...Every single year on March 3rd when it has sat in a garage next to a minivan for 360-odd days since the last "tune up" 'cause it got used once on a 3 day weekend isn't just silly; It's stupid.
A bike will tell you what it needs. When it needs this or that, do this or that.
Giving a bike a full & complete tune up, cable change, bearing repack, etc...Every single year on March 3rd when it has sat in a garage next to a minivan for 360-odd days since the last "tune up" 'cause it got used once on a 3 day weekend isn't just silly; It's stupid.
A bike will tell you what it needs. When it needs this or that, do this or that.
Additionally, bearing components…headsets, bottom brackets, and hubs…have much better seals thanks to the needs of the mountain bike crowd. Even the loose bearing hubs from Shimano post 1995 (ish), have excellent seals which keeps contamination out of the bearings. Sealed bearing bottom brackets don’t need yearly attention nor are many of them even able to be attended to. A Shimano BB-UN55, for example, can’t be rebuilt but it will last for decades without any kind of attention. Even inexpensive headsets and hubs now feature sealed bearing cartridges that require no maintenance. Use them until they seize, buy a replacement bearing that is relatively cheap, and replace the bearing. It may be 10s of thousands of miles before that is needed, however. A 6902-2rs (2 rubber seals) has a dynamic load rating of 900 lbs at 16,000 rpm. A rider is putting less than 200lb load at less than 300 rpm or about 22% of the dynamic load at about 1% of the speed rating.
Personally, I’ve only ever replaced bearings on 3 or 4 hubs since I started using sealed bearing hubs in 1983. I’m a bit amazed that I’ve had to replace that many based on the load and speed of the hub. I have never worn out a cartridge bearing bottom bracket of any kind personally. I’ve only run across a few in all the bikes I’ve put hands on at the co-op (upwards of 15,000). I’ve replaced a lot of unsealed bottom brackets, headsets, and hub cones but mostly on pre1995 components.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Likes For cyccommute:
#77
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,904
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2604 Post(s)
Liked 1,933 Times
in
1,213 Posts
LOL, I know exactly what you're talking about! Or the time I tried to repack a wheel's bearings. Now I usually do this in the garage and hang on to everything, but this winter night it was cold, so I put some old rags on newspapers on the carpet in the living room. Despite those fairly elaborate precautions, I lost 5 balls out of one side, then 6 out of the second. Flashlight laying on the floor, waving strong magnets all across the room, and they'd all disappeared permanently. (Lucky I'd saved a couple old hubs I could rob to get everything back together.)
#78
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,904
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2604 Post(s)
Liked 1,933 Times
in
1,213 Posts
I kind of wonder why nobody has responded with an answer like, "A good mechanic working on his/her own bike and his/her family's bikes would never need to replace chainrings because they'd never let the chain and cassette wear that far without replacing them."
Although a couple have come close...
Although a couple have come close...
#79
Cantilever believer
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,568
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked 1,839 Times
in
832 Posts
I kind of wonder why nobody has responded with an answer like, "A good mechanic working on his/her own bike and his/her family's bikes would never need to replace chainrings because they'd never let the chain and cassette wear that far without replacing them."
Although a couple have come close...
Although a couple have come close...
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
#80
Cantilever believer
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,568
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked 1,839 Times
in
832 Posts
I got one! Point to the lightly used (< 200 miles?), slightly dirty (wax residue) 11 speed cassette on my bike, and ask the Shade Tree Mechanic whether it is worn out. If he or she says yes because some teeth seem to be missing chunks of material, take bike back immediately.
But seriously, anything that I cannot figure out by diligent research and with everyone's help here on BF deserves attention at the LBS. Even though it is now a Trek shop, they are very knowledgeable and happy to work on my non-Trek bikes.
But seriously, anything that I cannot figure out by diligent research and with everyone's help here on BF deserves attention at the LBS. Even though it is now a Trek shop, they are very knowledgeable and happy to work on my non-Trek bikes.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
#81
Cantilever believer
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,568
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Liked 1,839 Times
in
832 Posts
LOL, I know exactly what you're talking about! Or the time I tried to repack a wheel's bearings. Now I usually do this in the garage and hang on to everything, but this winter night it was cold, so I put some old rags on newspapers on the carpet in the living room. Despite those fairly elaborate precautions, I lost 5 balls out of one side, then 6 out of the second. Flashlight laying on the floor, waving strong magnets all across the room, and they'd all disappeared permanently. (Lucky I'd saved a couple old hubs I could rob to get everything back together.)
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
#82
Senior Member
This is my perspective as a working mechanic. Many shops have mechanic bios with qualifications--those that showcase their staff's expertise are likely to do good work (though some great shops/mechanics may not). It wouldn't be rude to ask if they don't and you're interested. Also many shops operate as a team--the person creating your tag may not be the same person who service writes your bike (if it's not done on the spot) who may also not be the same person who works on your bike, etc, so this kind of testing may not give you useful information. Also shops that list a wide range of services (including suspension service, wheelbuilding, true full overhauls, etc) are likelier to have a depth of knowledge in their staff. A good hint will be how your bike is service written--this is especially true if this is done in front of you. Do they look methodical and efficient checking over the bike, and do they communicate a range of possible service plans effectively? That's a pretty good sign.
#83
Recreational Road Cyclist
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: MetroWest, Mass.
Posts: 548
Bikes: 1990 Peter Mooney road bike
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 257 Post(s)
Liked 252 Times
in
134 Posts
But a good STM may have replaced chainrings that weren't worn to use a larger or smaller ring to change ratios. I m'self have only worn out a single ring, but I have changed several to try new combos. TA rings are my preference on my vintage 110/74 BCD crank.
#84
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: North, Ga.
Posts: 2,401
Bikes: 3Rensho-Aerodynamics, Bernard Hinault Look - 1986 tour winner, Guerciotti, Various Klein's & Panasonic's
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 159 Post(s)
Liked 375 Times
in
162 Posts
No need to ask a question. If someone clamps the frame onto a work stand by the top tube. You have your answer.
Todays all carbon bikes my be different?
Todays all carbon bikes my be different?
#85
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Jose, California
Posts: 3,504
Bikes: 2001 Tommasini Sintesi w/ Campagnolo Daytona 10 Speed
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 145 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 35 Times
in
30 Posts
If they respond with any method that involves pressing against the sides of the rim OR pressing down upon the hub without clarifying details - I already know they don't understand what stress relieving is.
Here's another:
What is the dimension from the freewheel hub stop to the outside of the locknut for setting a 126mm rear hub up for a 6 / 7 speed freewheel?
OR
What is the dimension from the spline stop to the outside of the locknut for setting a 130mm rear hub up for a 7 speed road cassette?
OR
What is the dimension from the spline stop to the outside of the locknut for setting a 135mm rear hub up for a 7-speed MTB cassette?
I'm simply testing whether or not they can be bothered to look up readily available date online or in a Sutherlands manual.
I don't like mechanics who go with jerry-rigging or "winging it" when the information they need to get it done right is literally right in front of their noses.
=8-|
__________________
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
Likes For mrrabbit:
Likes For BTinNYC:
#88
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,799
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1088 Post(s)
Liked 1,026 Times
in
723 Posts
Clarification? I've built hundreds of wheels and relieved the windup in the spokes by pressing down on the sides of the wheels, I've also occasionally done it by squeezing on opposite pairs of spokes but find that's too hard on the hands and less effective. So what's the negative to pressing on the sides of the wheels?
#89
Mostly harmless ™
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Novi Sad
Posts: 4,430
Bikes: Heavy, with friction shifters
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1107 Post(s)
Liked 216 Times
in
130 Posts
My comment was mostly made in jest but there is a kernel of truth there. In my experience, the vast majority of shifting issues are cable related…mostly too little tension. I really don’t need to know what brand the derailer is or what bike is it is on or even the number of speeds. If it is a mechanical shifting systems, 99 times out of 100, the cable is too slack. That’s where to start. If a mechanic reaches for a screw driver first, it should set off alarm bells. The other issues that can have an effect on shifting like bent hangers, cables too tight, cables corroded in the housing, and cassette wear are way down the list of things that can be wrong. “Limit screw adjustment” isn’t even on that list. I start with the cable and if that doesn’t work, I go further down the list above but most times, I don’t have to go past cable adjustment.
When a bike is on the stand, I often check the limit screws to avoid having the chain fall off (and scratch anything on the bike) when I start playing with adjustments. It's one of the first things I do (right after eyeballing how it's all aligned and how the chain is routed).
I do manage to get the shifting to work nicely. But a screwdriver often is the first tool I reach for.
Relja
#90
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
Do you..... "use them until they seize, buy a replacement bearing that is relatively cheap?"
Anyone who uses bearings until they seize isn't getting within 100 feet of my bike.
Anyone who uses bearings until they seize isn't getting within 100 feet of my bike.
Likes For soyabean:
#92
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,795
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3514 Post(s)
Liked 2,927 Times
in
1,776 Posts
Likes For smd4:
#93
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: northern Deep South
Posts: 8,904
Bikes: Fuji Touring, Novara Randonee
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2604 Post(s)
Liked 1,933 Times
in
1,213 Posts
I don't think I've ever had a bearing sieze, but I've had a couple pedal bearings "assplode." Does that make me a bad mechanic?
#94
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,366
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6220 Post(s)
Liked 4,221 Times
in
2,367 Posts
Hmm.
When a bike is on the stand, I often check the limit screws to avoid having the chain fall off (and scratch anything on the bike) when I start playing with adjustments. It's one of the first things I do (right after eyeballing how it's all aligned and how the chain is routed).
I do manage to get the shifting to work nicely. But a screwdriver often is the first tool I reach for.
Relja
When a bike is on the stand, I often check the limit screws to avoid having the chain fall off (and scratch anything on the bike) when I start playing with adjustments. It's one of the first things I do (right after eyeballing how it's all aligned and how the chain is routed).
I do manage to get the shifting to work nicely. But a screwdriver often is the first tool I reach for.
Relja
Perhaps that is a better question to ask any “shade tree mechanic”…do you know how to fix the correct problem?
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#95
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,366
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6220 Post(s)
Liked 4,221 Times
in
2,367 Posts
Of the bottom brackets, I’ve had only one fail out of dozens I’ve used. It was a Chris King bottom bracket and all I had to do to get it up and running was to relube it per instructions provided on the Chris King website. Even in a decade or more of working in a co-op, I’ve only ever run across a few sealed bottom brackets that were even rough. I’ve never run across a bottom bracket that was seized.
In that same time, I can’t tell you the number of loose bearing bottom brackets that I’ve seen that were ruined. If I’m refurbishing a bike, I remove the loose cup bottom bracket because it’s just not worth working on nor do I want to leave a headache for the future owner.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Last edited by cyccommute; 05-12-23 at 08:20 AM.
#96
Mostly harmless ™
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Novi Sad
Posts: 4,430
Bikes: Heavy, with friction shifters
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1107 Post(s)
Liked 216 Times
in
130 Posts
If overshifting, or more rarely under shifting, is the problem that someone is asking about, picking up a screwdriver is the correct tool but when someone says “my bike isn’t shifting properly”, they usually aren’t talking about overshifting. They mean that the gears are making noise or the chain isn’t moving on the cassette. Those are not problems that have anything to do with the limit screws. The limit screws are only involved in setting the limits of derailer movement. That’s is all they do. They have nothing to do with the way the cable moves the derailer which moves the chain which shifts gears. I just don’t understand why this is such a hard concept to grasp. Nor why the idea of addressing the actual problem…i.e. less than crisp shifts that pop or don’t change or make noise when the shift is made…is so wrong.
Perhaps that is a better question to ask any “shade tree mechanic”…do you know how to fix the correct problem?
Perhaps that is a better question to ask any “shade tree mechanic”…do you know how to fix the correct problem?
Relja Screwdriver-First Novović
#97
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,366
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 152 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6220 Post(s)
Liked 4,221 Times
in
2,367 Posts
But, again, limit screws don’t go out of adjustment unless someone has messed with the limit screws in a ill-informed attempt to “adjust” the shifting because they don’t understand how bicycle shifting works. Even if the hanger is bent, adjusting the limit screws doesn’t fix the problem.
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#98
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 1,236
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 502 Post(s)
Liked 436 Times
in
335 Posts
That's not necessarily a good test of mechanical ability - some mechanics are happy to use "well used" kit because they have a good idea how much more abuse it will take, and how to fix it, and anyway they're busy with paying work, or out riding ...
#99
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,663
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked 1,472 Times
in
1,020 Posts
... Cartridge bearings…aka “sealed” bearings…generally aren’t serviced nor do they need servicing. If they get rough and start to seize, they really aren’t meant to be opened and regreased. They are meant to be replaced. In fact, if they are serviced by prying up the seal, they are more likely to be damaged than if they are simply left along. ...
I think we can all agree to make an exception for the Bike Gremlin.
#100
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,380
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2487 Post(s)
Liked 2,956 Times
in
1,679 Posts
But, again, limit screws don’t go out of adjustment unless someone has messed with the limit screws in a ill-informed attempt to “adjust” the shifting because they don’t understand how bicycle shifting works. Even if the hanger is bent, adjusting the limit screws doesn’t fix the problem.
I asked, "Has anyone [looking at the son] been attempting to adjust the gears at home?"
She answered hotly, "They asked that last time! I asked my son, and he said no. MY SON DOESN'T LIE TO ME!!"
I looked at the son again. He looked back at me sheepishly.
I took the bike to the repair department and adjusted the gears. Then I dabbed some green touch-up paint on the adjustment screw threads and on the top of the screw heads. Brought the bike back up and pointed out the painted adjustment screws: "This way, if someone tries to turn the adjustment screws, you'll see cracks in the paint."
Off they went. As far as I know, the bike required no more gear adjustments after that.
Looking back, I'm glad I didn't give in to the impulse to say, "A 13-year-old boy who doesn't lie to his mom? Call the Guinness Book of Records!"
Likes For Trakhak: