MarcusT

Greetings all
I understand how "bikepacking" has taken off. The minimalist baggage with out the use of racks or panniers.Yet as time continues, I see more and more bikepackers keep the 10 litre saddle bag, yet have heavily loaded handlebars, forks and frame, where it looks like if the rider brakes too hard they'll do an olly. Seems, in order to call themselves bikepackers, they must avoid rear panniers at all costs.
Or is it just my perception?

staehpj1

It does kind of seem like there is an avoid racks/panniers at all cost attitude with some riders. I never got it, but it is their choice. I see folks carrying more gear than I did when I was still using large panniers and not packing what I consider particularly light. I don't really see any real advantage to some of the setups. Folks can pack how they like though. I have done some pretty unorthodox packing methods myself. That said, even when fairly light sub 20 pounds of gear I have sometimes still used a pair of panniers.

I think for many the big thing is avoiding using racks. That may be because their bike doesn't easily support one, because they believe there will be more sway off road, or just to be "fashionable". Also off road there are clearance from brush/rocks issues with big/low panniers.

theblackbullet

I think bikepackers are drawn to the aesthetic as much as the activity. I've always found racks and panniers to be easier to use and more practical all around. I do have a 14L saddle bag that I really enjoy throwing on the back of my "race bike" for short trips though.

andrewclaus

I agree with all the above. One thing I began to take note of as I lightened my load was the volume/weight ratio of a pack. A larger, simple pack without pockets or zippers is best. I canned my handlebar bag for that reason. So I wonder at the multitude of small, zippered packs all over the frame. They're expensive, too. But I also agree, they can spend their money and pack as they like. A bunch of young people are getting out into the wild. And it actually does look pretty cool.

jamawani 

And backpacks.
Backpacks raise your center of gravity and make you sweat like a pig.
I mean - it's kinda like back in the 1970s.
Nobody would be caught dead with a transistor radio
when you could have a cool 8-track player.

cyccommute 

10 L is kind of small in the bike packing world. 14 to 16 L is closer to what is mainstream. Loading the handlebars and frame isn’t something that happened after the seatbag came out but was part of the whole system all along. Fork bags and some kind of rear bag are more recent developments as people have discovered that the minimalist way is too painful.

That said, bike packing bags have their place, however that place isn’t on the road, in my opinion. Bikepacking bags solve the problem of touring in rough roads but are of little utility on smooth pavement. They work better than panniers when the going gets rough. I’ve used panniers in the past (1985) and they were less than ideal, especially the panniers of that era. The Nashbar panniers with shock cord or, worse, spring tensioners on the bags and simple hooks were prone to flying off if you hit even a rather small bump. I had to chase panniers down hills many times.



The age of off-road touring with trailers was short lived…thankfully…no problem with losing luggage but…damn! They were heavy. All of them pushed the rear wheel in odd directions and some were very adept at lifting the rear wheel during braking. That’s not something that you really want on a rocky steep downhill.

DSCN0027 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

You aren’t wrong about bikepacking bags making the bike top heavy. When bikepacking…true bikepacking not riding a road bike with bikepacking bags…, I just accept that I’m going to end up on the ground at some point.


Since the bags are well attached to the bike, the yard sale isn’t too large.



Bikepacking bags are good enough for a nice short adventure of up to about 5 days. I can carry enough freeze-dry meals to last that long. More importantly, I can tolerate freeze-dry meals for about that long…as long as they don’t have zucchini in them. Trust me, you don’t want to eat freeze-dried zucchini!



For longer trips where I actually have to cook food, bikepacking gear is less desirable. I tried a trip on the Cowboy Trail in Nebraska. I chose the mountain bike because the trail is softer. But the load was equivalent to want I carry in panniers because of the need to actually cook something and it just wasn’t all the pleasant to ride. I managed about 100 miles before I bagged the ride as a bad job.



1500 miles on this setup is dead easy. Plus it is way easier to pack and/or move around off the bike. Bikepacking bags are odd shapes. Nothing fits in a logical manner because you have to put something where there is space. Your fuel canister may be in one bag but the stove is in a different bag. Cooking utensils are in a fork leg bag but the cookware is in the frame bag and the food is in the micropanniers. Every night is an exercise in unpacking and repacking.

If you have to move the bike around without the bags…loading on buses for example…carrying 7 bags of different shapes that don’t have handles and don’t nest together well is only slightly less difficult than dealing with a trailer.



When I see some of the people with bikes with overloaded bikepacking bags doing road tours, I just shake my head. There is a better way of carrying stuff on a better bike.

Tourist in MSN

My empty Ortlieb Backrollers and Front Rollers, plus a Tubus Logo EVO rear rack and a Tubus Tara front rack weigh a total of 5.21 kg, or 11.49 pounds. That is empty weight before I added the weight of a granola bar. That has a capacity of 65 liters of volume, or one pound of luggage per 5.7 liters of capacity (apology for mixing units).

If I skip the front panniers, then the total weight of the Logo EVO and Backrollers (skip a rack top bag) is 3 kg, or 6.6 pounds for a volume of 40 liters. That would be 6.1 liters of capacity per pound of luggage.

(I skipped adding my handlebar bag to this discussion, I use it on all tours and often use on longer day rides. But, I think most bike tourists do not use a large handlebar bag like I do.)

I am not sure what the total volume capacity is for bikepacking using: bags in anything cages on a front fork, a large commonly used frame bag, a large bikepacking saddle bag, and a front harness and dry bag. If it is less than 40 liters, that is less volume than a pair of backrollers. And I have no idea what those things weigh. But I can see where if you pack really light that you could save some luggage weight.

I am sure cost comes into the equation, but I am citing the Tubus and Ortlieb because I have owned those for over a decade, they are not inexpensive. I have no clue about bikepacking stuff.

If I did a credit card tour, I would try to get by with a Carradice Camper or Carradice Nelson Long Flap, plus a frame bag, those would add up to less volume than my Backrollers but would save a lot of weight on the bike. And if you care about aerodynamics, that combination of bags would be more aero than panniers.

Bike geometry comes into play too. But I virtually never hear anyone saying that a particular bike has a better geometry for panniers (rear loading) than it does for bike packing (more front loading), or the reverse of that. So, while front vs rear loading of a bike is important to handling for different geometries, it seems to be the first item that gets neglected in these considerations.

Steve B.

[QUOTE=staehpj1;23088329]It does kind of seem like there is an avoid racks/panniers at all cost attitude with some riders. I never got it, but it is their choice.QUOTE]

The bikes they are using typically do not have eyelets brazed on to mount racks, thus the move to strap on bags. They are often off road using mt bikes of some form with no eyelets, or possibly a dedicated bikepacking bike which might just be a hard tail with no suspension fork.

As to the OP's questions, the types of large rear duffel, large front duffel, internal frame bag and maybe bags installed on the forks, generally do not have the carrying capacity of what an old fashioned cyclo tourist would carry with front and rear panniers installed on racks. Thus they use lighter and more minimalists gear all ibn orders to jam in food and water. Not unusual to be wearing a medium sized backpack as well. Food storage capacity is the limiting factor.

mrv 

+1 on the "it's an aesthetics" thing comments.
I will counter that panniers are a bit of a pain with AMTRAK - out of Ann Arbor and some of the smaller stations where you don't get a full cargo car to roll on. But then a full frame bag makes shouldering impossible.

https://bikepacking.com/bikepacking-101/setups/
- the very first set up shown uses a rear rack. I like the BikePacking website quite a bit - enough to pay for the very expensive twice a year periodical / journal. It's really well done.
In practice I stick with dirt roads and MUPs for cyclo touring. It truly drives me nuts to hear people I'm touring with say they are "bike packing" when we're on a rail trail and about 1/3 of the people have a chase vehicle carrying all their stuff. my humble-brag: i road to the event and road home from the event, making it a 4 day weekend of CYCLO TOURING! ... or bike camping ... or just touring - when ya got zero % single track, you're not BikePacking.

I've only done one multi day trek that involved lots of single track, and i had rear panniers - a bit of a pain on the long pushes up rocks and roots...

djb

cycco has the most experience of any of us here doing off road tours, trying out all kinds of packing variations--which, btw, I meant to mention a while back when you posted similar shots--it's neat how you try different setups for different situations and a lot of fun to see the progression throughout the years. I too enjoy trying out different setups, and part of the fun is just switching out things and seeing how it works for the specifics of a given trip.

bottom line, bikepacking setups work better for all the reasons.

Over the last couple of years in bikepacking, using small rear racks and small panniers has had a clear come back, the advantages of having more room and or easier access has it places, yet bikes are still better suited to hike a bike stuff and passing through narrow areas with "micro panniers".
I've even had perfectly fine success using my smaller arkel rear panniers with light, bulky things in them, and heavier stuff on top of rack and in a handlebar harness, and this has held up great on rough surfaces and manhandling the bike still easily enough over stuff and through narrow sections.

In this photo, the panniers looks heavy, but they just have clothes in them, so didn't move around too much over rough stuff, important given their thin construction.
I also didn't travel with my fork cages and small frame bag (flew with my bike in more traditional pannier mode, but brought some bikepacking stuff for this section of my trip) so I could have easily put the heavier stuff, tools, kitchen stuff, onto the fork and frame, freeing up more space for spare food etc.

Tourist in MSN

[QUOTE=Steve B.;23088495]Thanks for mentioning that, the majority of bikepackers that I have seen were wearing a backpack, but virtually nobody that I see with panniers does that.

indyfabz

I take a transistor and a large sum of money to spend.

rivers

I think it's the perception of some that in order to go bikepacking you must shun panniers at all costs. But more manufacturers are making small "gravel" panniers, and then there are the like of the aeroe spider rack and everything coming out of Tailfin.
I have moved over to Tailfin for everything on the rear of my bike (as well as a few of their other bags), and have restrap front harness/handlebar bag and a custom frame bag.
Prior to getting a Tailfin Aeropack and a selection of their panniers (5 litre mini and 22 litre), i jad a 15 litre saddlebag. But, my bike is only 46cm, so it needed to be packed just right so it didn't bounce off my rear wheel. And it got a bit time consuming packing/re-packing the saddlebag on trips. Enter the Tailfin- it is absolutely rock solid, doesn't move, rattle, sway, etc. I put my tent, cook set, and Microfiber towel in the aeropack and use the 5 litre mini panniers for my clothes (spare set of kit and extra layers on one side, sleeping/camp clothes in the other). And I still have full use of my dropper post as well. I have the 22 litre panniers for commuting when I need to take tools, laptop, steelies, etc for work as well as for taking my son bikepacking (he's a toddler). I put lightweight but bulky items into it (his sleeping pad, bag, some of his clothes, my clothes, etc), with the rest of his bits going into his trailer (toys, milk, nappies, etc).

Before i bought the 22 litre panniers.

Full set-up from this summer. Ive changed a couple of bits sone then

Steve B.

[QUOTE=Tourist in MSN;23088609]Capacity of the bags is the driving issue. A pair of Ortleib front and rear rack mounted panniers can carry 65 liters of gear, where with a bikepacking setup, as a large under seat duffle as well as round bar bag is around 30 liters. Add a frame triangle bag for another 15 liters, maybe. Really big difference in what you can carry. Also consider that typically bikepacking was intended for off-road backcountry type trips where panniers on a touring bike was not the ideal setup, but there were also usually fewer opportunities to re-supply as you do on a road centric self supported tour. Thus the amount of food you carry limits how many days you can be out there, thus moving to very minimalist gear for shelter, bag and clothing yields you more room for food and more days riding.

jamawani 

But whatever happened to your 8-track? ;-)

staehpj1

Somehow that quote got attributed to me due to a mangled previous quote, but yes. I agree that you seldom see folks with panniers and a backpack.

I will say that after having used a little one to carry just a few things that I want to keep with me, I find it quite nice. I try to limit it to maybe 3 or 4 pounds with the exception of short hops here and there where I might need to tote extra water or groceries. For example the fairly rare example where I might have no resupply for a full day/night on a road tour. It is also real handy if I am making a run to the store from camp. For ultralight touring the 3-4 pounds is a significant portion of the load, for heavier touring it would be more about having a few items handy when you leave the bike. I might consider one for a pannier tour if I do that again.

tcs

One of the travelog writers @ bikepacking.com apologized to her readers for using panniers.

Fred Birchmore, 'round the world 1935~36:



I like quality, purpose-driven gear, but...Mr. Birchmore wrapped his gear in a canvas tarp, tied it to the rack of his Reinhart utility cycle, and headed out.

djb

cool story.
worth the read here:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/histo...world-1462409/

as for apologizing for panniers, I'll have to see what was written in that regard. It certainly touches on the view that panniers are only for us old friggin old farts, being old fashioned, and while I totally get the whole bikepacking thing, its fun as hell, like I said earlier, there's very much a return to smaller panniers and such to facilitate carrying stuff--but the main ethos of carrying less **** still stands, and thats a good thing, and I get it to a certain point.

Paul_P

Age certainly has something to do with it.
I used to sleep on top of mountains with only a 1/2" closed cell pad under my sleeping bag directly on rock. And I slept well.
I now get sore on an 18" thick plush mattress.
I cut a fairly thick closed cell pad just long enough to go under my shoulders and hips which fits inside a rear pannier (like a liner, so doesn't take up mush space).
That and a remarkably small 1 lb 3" thick air mattress. Together it's sort of comfortable. The pad is mostly for heat retention.

cyccommute 

That’s one of the biggest problems I have with bikepacking bags. My state has a bus system that I can take to most any place in the state. I just put my bike on the front and off we go. The problem is that I have to remove the bags from the bike before they will let me put it on the rack. I can leave on the frame bag (most of the time) but that’s only small blessing. With this bike, I had to remove the handlebar bag, the seat bag, the gas tank and the panniers. Add in a helmet and a Camelbak (yes, I wear a backpack…even on road tours) and that’s a whole lot of juggling.


With this configuration…including the Camelbak…the two fork leg bags made the bus problem even harder to deal with. Much more than just a little more difficult.




While riding, the bikepacking bags work really well. They are tight to the bike and, for the most part, out of the way. I would not do a downtube bag like this one again as it hit the wheel on hard impacts.


The load is still too high and the nightly complete unpack/repack was a royal pain but they do work better than panniers for rough road travel.

saddlesores

that went with the gremlin when mr. moneybags upgraded to a pacer!

Pratt

It takes me a couple of days to remember where I put everything, even though I try to use the same system each tour. That is with four panniers, a tent and sleeping bag. My usual load is about 36 lb. That includes tent, Sbag, stove, pots, etc. some food, clothes, tools and cell phone. If I were going credit card, I could probably save 10-15 lb. but would take more clothing. If I were going camping in a dry, bug free area (e.g. California) I could save a couple of pounds by leaving the tent at home.

john m flores 

1. Even smaller panniers can get hung up on a rock or branch when navigating singletrack
2. Panniers tend to make an inordinate amount of noise when bumping along a trail
3. Panniers open up the temptation to overpack.

Bikepacking bags certainly have their negatives but I appreciate folks trying other ways. One thing I've observed over the last couple of years in the bikepacking world is the adoption of small racks and small panniers in addition to framebags and other bikepacking bags. I see it as a correction away from the no-pannier ethos that's been pervasive for a while and a recognition that panniers can be useful.

robow

I for one will never be a "bike packer", not because it's not cool, but because there is no way in hell that I can swing my leg over that seat pack in order to mount the bike, as I can barely just clear my saddle now. I would have to lean the bike way over and step over the top tube which can't be fun. Ha

I have toured with a couple of individuals who "bike packed" and it seemed that they had every inch of bag space accounted for, such to the point when we stopped at a grocery store to pick up food for that evening's dinner, they had no where to stuff it, so a friend and I carried their food for them to the campground.

I think it's a great way to go if you're a minimalist, or off road, or you're race touring and want to be more aero. And I do appreciate all the new gear that's getting created for that group, where maybe I can eventually come to make use of some of it.

BobG

At 5'5" a high seat bag would be out of the question for me also. The only way I can mount a bike is cowboy style. Left foot on the pedal for a 4" boost, swing the right leg over from the rear. Same for dismount.

I don't tour on single track. I prefer the weight low and on the side even on rough gravel. I abandoned handlebar bags years ago.