markk900

Hey all: found a lovely picture of my father in the early 50s on tour in Germany. Trying to figure out what his bike was (not by brand - that would be impossible I think) but generally what this might be.

Looks to have a Sturmey Archer style quadrant shifter on the top tube, and a derailleur of some sort at the back as well. Crank looks unique as well.

Any thoughts?

Erzulis Boat 

Which one? The loaded tourer, or the one that he is resting his feet upon?

rustystrings61 

I think that bike is equipped with hybrid gearing like the old Cyclo Benelux 2- or 3-speed cog block that replaced the stock single cog, coupled with a Cyclo Benelux Mk. 7 derailleur. They sold a kit and they were in wide use for many years. Here's one rider's account. St. Sheldon also wrote of them.

For that matter, in this thread it is noted one can just run two standard Sturmey dished cogs and create the same setup.

I am assuming we are talking about the bike in the relative foreground. I think the bars are a little racier than standard North Road bends and are inverted to a "drop" position and that looks like an unsprung leather saddle, so it's probably something nicer than the standard Raleigh Sports.

jamesdak 

Hey....that's familier. Looks like the castle in Heidelberg.

markk900

To clarify - the one in the foreground. Though I believe both bikes to have bags etc.


He and his buddy were likely in their mid teens when this photo was taken.

markk900

I think you are right James….

John E

Looking at some of the photos in "The Dancing Chain," I am thinking it is a 1930s Simplex rear derailleur, rather than hybrid system. For one, I don't see two sets of shifters and connecting cables.

(I happily used a Cyclo/Sturmey 4x3 hybrid for several years, with a 14-16-18-20 cogset and a long rear axle on a regular AW hub. With 40T up front and 26" tires, I had 10 unique ratios (2 duplicates where the ranges overlapped) spanning 39 to 99 gear-inches.

markk900

Found another photo; probably a couple of years earlier but I think its the same bike.

juvela

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new image -

in first image it appeared crown might be semi-sloping; in this image it is clear it is a flat topper

looks to come down to a single point in the side

there is a triangular cutout in the side which makes me think it may be a Vagner Nr. 12 or Nr. 12+




both Haden and Ekla offered similar patterns

if frame constructed with such a forged crown it would place it above the level of a Raleigh Sports and similar machines

note that brake levers are road model rather than tourist model - suggests cycle may have come from factory with a drop bar

brake calipers appear to be constructed of dural which eliminates lower model planetary machines


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Markeologist

Kind of looks like a BSA monogram crankset (not my photo, just pulled off internet):

rustystrings61 

That looks to me like a Weinmann sidepull front caliper, and I am with @juvela in saying those are road levers that would have been standard on a dropped-bar bike.

oneclick 

Williams.

markk900

juvela : my goodness you have sharp eyes!

I was hoping the chainwheel might help - it does follow the Williams pattern but seems to me the spokes are “heavier”.

I believe there is only a front brake - I see no indication of a lever or cable on the left handlebar in either picture, also no caliper at the back. However there is some sort of chrome fitting near the chainstays in both view (might be a chain guide).

Would someone use a quadrant style shifter with a derailleur? I guess I see no reason why not but hadn’t seen that before.

CV-6 

To me, the whole of the crank is too bulky to be the Williams or BSA and the spider does not match either in appearance. (at least for the pics I could find of said cranks) If I did not know the date as early 50s, I would say it is a Stronglight 57.

For some reason, the photographer directing his subject to look off in the distance in both pics cracks me up. Someone thinking they are Steichen? But then I am told I have an odd sense of humor.

Markeologist

The crank arm looks to have the squared flat facets as seen on cottered cranks…the Stronglight 57 is cotterless so I’m not inclined to think the pictured crank is a 57…nor the earlier Stronglight cottered crank as those have three arms.

PhilFo 

That looks just like a Williams B100 with a 46 tooth ring. The sloping crown and Cyclo Benelux make me think it's a late 1930s Rudge, like a 1939 No. 80 Light Tourist with the bars inverted.
https://threespeedhub.com/wp-content...og_1939_UK.pdf
Labeled page Twenty Seven in the catalog.
After the Raleigh merger, the Rudge line don't seem to have been equipped with, nor had the braze-on for, a derailleur like the one here. I think Raleigh kept those for the Lenton line after the war.

CV-6 

Stronglight 45 is cottered and uses the 50.4 BCD ring.

Markeologist

OK, I stand corrected, guess I have never seen a 45!

markk900

Pics were taken several years apart I believe, however it is amusing. They were a couple of teens off on their adventures; for sure they could have imagined how they could be famous photographers as well!

It seems a lot of landing on English bikes of that era; I hadn’t considered my father having one as he never talked about this time of his life so I assumed he would be riding something German made. He certainly wasn’t a bike gear head as later when I got super interested in bikes (about the same age as he was in the photos) he didn’t say a word about equipment.

rustystrings61 

Huh. I know that for me, I see bikes with a quadrant shifter and think, "Sturmey Archer," and with a derailleur equipped, I think, "hybrid." But now I think I was wrong to go that way. The lack of a rear caliper brake means coaster brake, and the only coaster brake that comes to mind that worked with a derailleur system is the old German Fichtel & Sachs, and lo, how about this?









My apologies for leading us all into a wild-goose chase. I think it's a German bike with an F&S coaster brake/derailleur system.

markk900

rustystrings61 : By Jove I Think You’ve Got It!

Thanks for that link - it helps explain a lot including the use of a drop bar brake lever on a flat handlebar, and the lack of any apparent rear brake. Even the bell position looks similar.

I had never heard of a coaster brake with a derailleur either.

markk900

A quick check of Berto and there you have it: both and F&S and a Honer. Interesting that he comments “Like most other German derailleurs, it was combined with a back-pedal brake”….




The photo also explains the contraption on the chainstay in the first picture.

markk900

Found yet another photo out of which I cropped the bike part. Fuzzy but it at least shows the rear derailleur. Photos are in a big pile intermixed and not in any sort of order……




(Don’t mind the young lady’s legs - they’re not my mom’s )

non-fixie 

I am seriously impressed by the amount of engineering that went into this cable and guide pulley:

rustystrings61 

I know! And I was kinda taken by the direction change worked into the pull-chain on the derailleur - see the 90 degree link about midway down the front plate?