Cleaning a chain prior to first wax bath: OMS + Methyl Hydrate VS Citrus + water
#51
Jedi Master
Same with the claim you must use a crockpot, that slows down the process even further. I tried both the before mentioned MC wax and paraffin. Both can safely be heated on the stove. Its no more dangerous than cooking an egg and your done in a few minutes rather than waiting a hour for a 100w crockpot.
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Wax manufacturers want you to use their wax without other lubricants present because they can’t control for what those other materials will do to their wax. Testing labs want experimental control for testing. The average home (or even professional) mechanic doesn’t need to come up to those standards. Failing to have a clean room clean chain probably won’t have any effect on the mileage of the chain. Even if it does have some effect, it is likely to be minor. You aren’t going to get half the mileage out of the chain if you don’t strip every single molecule of the previous lubricant from the chain before you start using their wax.
I also don’t consider Zero Friction to the be gold standard for chain testing. I question their results and can find little about how they arrive at those results. They say something about variance of the measurement but don’t list the variance. Their results are very suspect in my opinion. On their chain longevity testing page, they claim that they only get 1000 km (600 miles) out of an inexpensive Shimano chain, which is unbelievable. They claim only 3000 km for the best actual measurement on a chain. That’s extremely low from what most people report. They also list only one 9 speed and one 8 speed chain but give an average for “all” 8 speed and “all” 9 speed chains. That’s lazy science.
Finally, if someone…manufacturer, testing lab, or home mechanic…suggests a long involved multistep process for chain cleaning, they had better have good reasons for doing all those steps. I have yet to see anyone provide a reason. I also have yet to see anyone actually test if those steps result in different results than something less involved.
I also don’t consider Zero Friction to the be gold standard for chain testing. I question their results and can find little about how they arrive at those results. They say something about variance of the measurement but don’t list the variance. Their results are very suspect in my opinion. On their chain longevity testing page, they claim that they only get 1000 km (600 miles) out of an inexpensive Shimano chain, which is unbelievable. They claim only 3000 km for the best actual measurement on a chain. That’s extremely low from what most people report. They also list only one 9 speed and one 8 speed chain but give an average for “all” 8 speed and “all” 9 speed chains. That’s lazy science.
Finally, if someone…manufacturer, testing lab, or home mechanic…suggests a long involved multistep process for chain cleaning, they had better have good reasons for doing all those steps. I have yet to see anyone provide a reason. I also have yet to see anyone actually test if those steps result in different results than something less involved.
2. You get what you pay for. Each chain takes 150-200 hours of testing. Nobody uses 8 or 9 speed chains, outside the Co-op world.
Zerofriction has given my important data on different lubes and different chains in adverse conditions and as someone who rides in such conditions for long distances, there data is unique. Nobody conducts such tests.
Note that he tests wear at seven different sections of the chain. I am lazy, I just measure the whole chain, which is far more accurate and precise than than doing one 12 inch piece trying to eyeball 1/32 vs 1/16th. My last chain was binned at just over 10,000 miles with 0.4% "stretch"
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/w...-Protocol-.pdf
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2. You get what you pay for. Each chain takes 150-200 hours of testing. Nobody uses 8 or 9 speed chains, outside the Co-op world.
But you are missing my point. All of the reported mileages resulting in 0.5% stretch are far lower than what most people report. The 8 and 9 speed chains just happen to be extremely low.
Zerofriction has given my important data on different lubes and different chains in adverse conditions and as someone who rides in such conditions for long distances, there data is unique. Nobody conducts such tests.
…For 9 and 10-speed chains, replace chain just as the gauge fits the 0.75% side fits flat into the chain. For 11 and 12-speed chain, replace as the 0.5% side fits…
Note that he tests wear at seven different sections of the chain. I am lazy, I just measure the whole chain, which is far more accurate and precise than than doing one 12 inch piece trying to eyeball 1/32 vs 1/16th. My last chain was binned at just over 10,000 miles with 0.4% "stretch"
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I just bought several new chains for the spring cycling season, and I'm going to throw caution to the wind and toss one of them in the wax crock-pot without cleaning it first. I'll report back in a few weeks and let you know how it goes. If it works, it could save me hundreds of seconds a year in chain cleaning.
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Solvent wax, by the way, doesn’t need to be reapplied as often as many people think. I get around 700 miles between applications. Even when touring in the eastern US, I didn’t have to apply more often than 700 miles. I did a 1500 mile tour around Lake Erie and applied it at the beginning of the tour, in the middle (after a long rainy day) and at the end.
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Yes, I did. That is not a “protocol”. It’s a sales pitch. There are few details in all that tree murdering. Nothing about load, duration, repetition, etc. Those are all details that should be in any protocol.
No one uses 8 and 9 speed chains except all those lower level bikes with Sora, Claris, Alivio, Altus, Microshift, etc. There are still millions of new bikes sold with 8 and 9 speed chains. There are millions of bikes out in the world that still use 8 and 9 speed chains. There are even a fair number of new bikes equipped with 7 speed systems which use 8 speed chains. Considering that more low end bikes with 7, 8, and 9 speed systems get sold than higher end offerings, I say there are more 8 and 9 speed chains used than 11 and 12.
But you are missing my point. All of the reported mileages resulting in 0.5% stretch are far lower than what most people report. The 8 and 9 speed chains just happen to be extremely low.
If the data is flawed, it doesn’t matter that they are the only ones doing the tests. 7, 8, and 9 speed chains shouldn’t be any more delicate than 10, 11, and 12 speed chains. Most reports from the field go the other direction with 10, 11, and 12 speed chains being more prone to wear due to the thin nature of the plates. The instructions for the Park Tool says
That indicates to me that the chain (and/or components) is less robust.
Although I think that little wear over that long a distance is a bit of a stretch, you should be the one disagreeing with Zero Friction’s testing. The greatest mileage to 0.5% elongation is 1500 km or 900 miles. Most people report 3+ times that for chain wear and you report 10+ times that distance. If they can’t get the average and report some chains not even being able to get a few weeks of normal wear, they are doing something wrong.
No one uses 8 and 9 speed chains except all those lower level bikes with Sora, Claris, Alivio, Altus, Microshift, etc. There are still millions of new bikes sold with 8 and 9 speed chains. There are millions of bikes out in the world that still use 8 and 9 speed chains. There are even a fair number of new bikes equipped with 7 speed systems which use 8 speed chains. Considering that more low end bikes with 7, 8, and 9 speed systems get sold than higher end offerings, I say there are more 8 and 9 speed chains used than 11 and 12.
But you are missing my point. All of the reported mileages resulting in 0.5% stretch are far lower than what most people report. The 8 and 9 speed chains just happen to be extremely low.
If the data is flawed, it doesn’t matter that they are the only ones doing the tests. 7, 8, and 9 speed chains shouldn’t be any more delicate than 10, 11, and 12 speed chains. Most reports from the field go the other direction with 10, 11, and 12 speed chains being more prone to wear due to the thin nature of the plates. The instructions for the Park Tool says
That indicates to me that the chain (and/or components) is less robust.
Although I think that little wear over that long a distance is a bit of a stretch, you should be the one disagreeing with Zero Friction’s testing. The greatest mileage to 0.5% elongation is 1500 km or 900 miles. Most people report 3+ times that for chain wear and you report 10+ times that distance. If they can’t get the average and report some chains not even being able to get a few weeks of normal wear, they are doing something wrong.
I assert you are wrong. There is a lot of information provided how testing is conducted and they apply it consistently from chain to chain. Free. No charge. Admittedly, the website is sloppy and one has to read a little bit.
BTW.....what are you talking about comparing their results to mine. I did not routinely ride in the conditions under which they test. I sometimes ride under those conditions and if I do, the chain gets cleaned thoroughly and rewaxed. I also ride in low load conditions, my average power might be 115 watts compared to 250 watts. I rarely push the limits of wear on my chains, if I do, it is by accident. I try to ditch them as 0.5%. I suspect you have spent less time reading how they test than writing a response to me.
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And after all that testing, you’ll likely find that the chain lasts about the same.
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#58
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I spent decades reviewing and approving protocols in regulated. I did not say it was a protocol but nonetheless, I have seen worse ones on products you might have installed in your body. That is a fact. You asserted you could find 'Little how they arrive at those results" The link provided is an overview of the testing and the rationale for it. Nothing more and nothing less.
I assert you are wrong. There is a lot of information provided how testing is conducted and they apply it consistently from chain to chain. Free. No charge. Admittedly, the website is sloppy and one has to read a little bit.
BTW.....what are you talking about comparing their results to mine. I did not routinely ride in the conditions under which they test. I sometimes ride under those conditions and if I do, the chain gets cleaned thoroughly and rewaxed. I also ride in low load conditions, my average power might be 115 watts compared to 250 watts. I rarely push the limits of wear on my chains, if I do, it is by accident. I try to ditch them as 0.5%.
I suspect you have spent less time reading how they test than writing a response to me.
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#59
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Lol, where is this place with random sparks everyone is talking about whenever petrol comes in a discussion?
500ml of petrol in a jam jar with the lid screwed on doesn't generate enough vapour to explode or catch on fire after you agitate the contents except if you remove the lid and check how clean the chain inside the glass jar is, with an open flame. Otherwise every car fueling up would leave the petrol station as a fireball.
I mean, I know some people are dense but come on, how are they riding a bicycle in that condition?
If petrol is 'scary' use diesel.
500ml of petrol in a jam jar with the lid screwed on doesn't generate enough vapour to explode or catch on fire after you agitate the contents except if you remove the lid and check how clean the chain inside the glass jar is, with an open flame. Otherwise every car fueling up would leave the petrol station as a fireball.
I mean, I know some people are dense but come on, how are they riding a bicycle in that condition?
If petrol is 'scary' use diesel.
Last edited by Schlafen; 04-05-22 at 11:58 AM. Reason: ***** spelling, more ***** spelling
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500ml of petrol in a jam jar with the lid screwed on doesn't generate enough vapour to explode or catch on fire after you agitate the contents except if you remove the lid and check how clean the chain inside the glass jar is, with an open flame. Otherwise every car fueling up would leave the petrol station as a fireball.
Fueling fires aren’t unknown. Fires from fuel tank ruptures in cars isn’t unknown. There are roughly 85,000 car fires in the US per year. There are roughly 35,000 house fires caused by gasoline in the US (52% of flammable liquid caused fires) per year. There are 100,000 gasoline (61% of flammable liquid fires) caused fires in business per year. It’s not a substance that should be handled without extreme caution.
I mean, I know some people are dense but come on, how are they riding a bicycle in that condition?
If petrol is 'scary' use diesel.
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#61
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Any number of places. Sparks, pilot lights, some idiot smoking, etc. The point is that the flash point of gasoline…or petrol, if you prefer…is so low that there is no temperature where it can be used without the risk of ignition.
At some point, the chain will have to be removed from the jar. It can’t make the bike go if it is sealed in a jar. Out of the jar, there is a significant amount of gasoline on the chain which evaporates and offers an fuel source for ignition. The jar is also vulnerable to breakage or even just getting knocked over. But buddiiee is talking about a whole lot more gasoline than 500ml. He is cleaning chains in coffee cans which are usually have a volume of 64 oz (1.9L) and are large enough to hold 2lb of bad coffee. They have a 5.125” (13 cm) mouth and usually have a plastic lid. And he is soaking multiple chains. I know exactly what he is talking about because my father used to do just this kind of stupid stuff with gasoline.
Fueling fires aren’t unknown. Fires from fuel tank ruptures in cars isn’t unknown. There are roughly 85,000 car fires in the US per year. There are roughly 35,000 house fires caused by gasoline in the US (52% of flammable liquid caused fires) per year. There are 100,000 gasoline (61% of flammable liquid fires) caused fires in business per year. It’s not a substance that should be handled without extreme caution.
I agree. How could anyone have a such a cavalier attitude to something that is close to an explosive.
Diesel would be a far better choice than gasoline. It doesn’t evaporate cleanly however. Mineral spirits does a better job without leaving an oily residue or, more importantly, burning down your house
At some point, the chain will have to be removed from the jar. It can’t make the bike go if it is sealed in a jar. Out of the jar, there is a significant amount of gasoline on the chain which evaporates and offers an fuel source for ignition. The jar is also vulnerable to breakage or even just getting knocked over. But buddiiee is talking about a whole lot more gasoline than 500ml. He is cleaning chains in coffee cans which are usually have a volume of 64 oz (1.9L) and are large enough to hold 2lb of bad coffee. They have a 5.125” (13 cm) mouth and usually have a plastic lid. And he is soaking multiple chains. I know exactly what he is talking about because my father used to do just this kind of stupid stuff with gasoline.
Fueling fires aren’t unknown. Fires from fuel tank ruptures in cars isn’t unknown. There are roughly 85,000 car fires in the US per year. There are roughly 35,000 house fires caused by gasoline in the US (52% of flammable liquid caused fires) per year. There are 100,000 gasoline (61% of flammable liquid fires) caused fires in business per year. It’s not a substance that should be handled without extreme caution.
I agree. How could anyone have a such a cavalier attitude to something that is close to an explosive.
Diesel would be a far better choice than gasoline. It doesn’t evaporate cleanly however. Mineral spirits does a better job without leaving an oily residue or, more importantly, burning down your house
Anyways, I do have friends that visit regularly and some which lived in the states for a few years, they did mention that even though it is the land of the free, most people live in fear and there's a lot of fear mongering going on. So yeah, keep doing what you're doing: petrol = bad and scary, make big fire, don't touch, make ouchy Even though that 87 pump 'gas' is kind of a joke, lol.
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[QUOTE=cyccommute;22461762if someone…manufacturer, testing lab, or home mechanic…suggests a long involved multistep process for chain cleaning, they had better have good reasons for doing all those steps. I have yet to see anyone provide a reason. I also have yet to see anyone actually test if those steps result in different results than something less involved.[/QUOTE]
Depends on what you mean by "long involved multistep process". Zero Friction recommends a soak in solvents for a new chain, but then just throws the chain into a pot of hot wax for reapplications. Silca recommends a similar deep cleaning for initial wax application, but then simply recommends a short soak or rinse in citrus degreaser for subsequent rewaxings.
FWIW, both of those have done multiple interviews where they discuss chain constriction, the need to get lubricant to the actual friction points, and the need to seal out grit, water, and dirt from the inner workings of the chain.
Of course, it's your chain. If this all sounds like hogwash to you, then do what you like. if you're not racing or obsessive about maintenence, it's probably a moot point. We're in the land of marginal gains.
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Same with the claim you must use a crockpot, that slows down the process even further. I tried both the before mentioned MC wax and paraffin. Both can safely be heated on the stove. Its no more dangerous than cooking an egg and your done in a few minutes rather than waiting a hour for a 100w crockpot.
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#64
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Using isopropyl alcohol as a last step for chain cleaning makes no sense since it has 9-30% water in it and it's not a solvent that dissolves or mixes paraffin. It doesn't make wax adhere better. Softer waxes are worth looking into. I add 20-30% heavy gear lube to grocery store paraffin to soften it and improve lubricity. I don't hot dip either. I dissolve the paraffin and oil with naphtha and apply it as a drip lube. There's far less wax to flake off. Depending on how much solvent is used, it must be warmed to 80-90F to become a liquid with water-like viscosity. The chain also has to be fairly warm or it will harden the lube before it can penetrate inside the rollers. I relube at least 3 times before removing a chain for cleaning, so I swap chains far less often that I would with hot dipping.
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Anyways, I do have friends that visit regularly and some which lived in the states for a few years, they did mention that even though it is the land of the free, most people live in fear and there's a lot of fear mongering going on. So yeah, keep doing what you're doing: petrol = bad and scary, make big fire, don't touch, make ouchy
Even though that 87 pump 'gas' is kind of a joke, lol.
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Depends on what you mean by "long involved multistep process". Zero Friction recommends a soak in solvents for a new chain, but then just throws the chain into a pot of hot wax for reapplications.
I agree that the chain should just be thrown into the hot wax after an initial (and single step) cleaning. But that is not what people are saying above. Some (many?) are performing this kind of cleaning each time they wax. Mostly because they don’t understand the protocol. It’s not all their fault because the protocol is poorly documented and tested.
Silca recommends a similar deep cleaning for initial wax application, but then simply recommends a short soak or rinse in citrus degreaser for subsequent rewaxings.
FWIW, both of those have done multiple interviews where they discuss chain constriction, the need to get lubricant to the actual friction points, and the need to seal out grit, water, and dirt from the inner workings of the chain.
We're in the land of marginal gains.
Of course, it's your chain. If this all sounds like hogwash to you, then do what you like. if you're not racing or obsessive about maintenence, it's probably a moot point.
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The Zero friction site says that KMC chains are not compatible with waxing. Has anyone found that to be the case?
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wax-at-home/
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wax-at-home/
Move into 2 x agitated baths of 2mins per bath of mineral turps(YBN, Shimano). Campy chains normally need an extra round, sram chains normally need 2 to 3 extra rounds thanks to their factory glue they apply. ZFC does not at this time recommend KMC chains for waxing / wax based lubes as have found their coatings tend to repel wax lubes, leading to very short treatment lifespans which has chains feeling and sounding very dry very quickly – this has also led to very short chain lifespans despite running the best know lubricant choices.
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@Cyclcommuter - Which solvent wax do you like to use?
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The Zero friction site says that KMC chains are not compatible with waxing. Has anyone found that to be the case?
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wax-at-home/
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wax-at-home/
This is yet another case of why I don’t take too much stock in what Zero Friction says. The coating doesn’t cause excessive wear in the chain. The quip in their post about excessive cleaning need for SRAM chains is silly as well.
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@Cyclcommuter - Which solvent wax do you like to use?
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#71
Jedi Master
The Zero friction site says that KMC chains are not compatible with waxing. Has anyone found that to be the case?
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wax-at-home/
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/wax-at-home/
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<Bunch of "I reject your sources" deleted>
No insult, veiled or otherwise. Racers and maintenance obsessives have specific needs, just as touring cyclists, commuters, and/or and casual weekend riders have their own unique set of needs There's no perceived superiority in being any particular type of cyclist.
Now - I'm off to perform a bunch of maintenance that I am absolutely convinced saves me watts of resistance and extends the life of my components. You are free to believe I am wasting my time. Have a great day.
Now - I'm off to perform a bunch of maintenance that I am absolutely convinced saves me watts of resistance and extends the life of my components. You are free to believe I am wasting my time. Have a great day.
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KMC makes some chains that have a (likely) teflon coating to prevent rust. In all honesty, the coating at contact points probably doesn’t last too long but it keeps the chain from rusting in general. Zero Friction is implying that the coating will prevent lubrication but they are incorrect because they don’t understand that the wax doesn’t adhere to the metal any better (or worse) than it would to the coating. I’m sure they see the wax flaking off the outside of the chain and think that the wax isn’t doing anything inside the chain. That’s just not true. Most any lubricant is wasted because it covers parts of the chain that don’t need lubrication.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#74
Jedi Master
KMC makes some chains that have a (likely) teflon coating to prevent rust. In all honesty, the coating at contact points probably doesn’t last too long but it keeps the chain from rusting in general. Zero Friction is implying that the coating will prevent lubrication but they are incorrect because they don’t understand that the wax doesn’t adhere to the metal any better (or worse) than it would to the coating. I’m sure they see the wax flaking off the outside of the chain and think that the wax isn’t doing anything inside the chain. That’s just not true. Most any lubricant is wasted because it covers parts of the chain that don’t need lubrication.
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Yes that makes sense. I just looked at the KMC website and they do say that some of their chains series have coatings while others make no mention of coatings. In any case, I've waxed and used up a bunch of KMC chains of many varieties, including the ones with coatings, and they all seem to work the same and last about as long as other chains.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!