The death of the Asian lugged import bicycle
04-15-24, 03:51 PM
#26
Crawlin' up, flyin' down
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Democratic Peoples' Republic of Berkeley
Posts: 5,666
Bikes: 1967 Paramount; 1982-ish Ron Cooper; 1978 Eisentraut "A"; two mid-1960s Cinelli Speciale Corsas; and others in various stages of non-rideability.
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1032 Post(s)
Liked 2,537 Times
in
1,064 Posts
Grant Petersen has been quoted as saying that the main reason Bridgestone USA closed up shop was because changes in the yen/dollar conversion rate made it unprofitable for the main company in Japan to export bikes to the US. He ought to know. And now that I've mentioned GP, this thread should grow to 10 pages. 
Also, it sounds to me like Taiwan bike manufacturers did to Japan what Japanese bike manufacturers (and car makers, and steel companies, and other manufacturers) did to the US and Europe starting in the mid-1960s: begin with the low-end market, take advantage of labor costs to make 'em cheaper to build up market share, build up expertise and capacity, and be prepared to pounce into mid- and higher-end markets when economic conditions put the then-current big guy on the block at a disadvantage. It's a tale that has been repeated a number of times going back to at least the Industrial Revolution, in a lot more industries than just bikes, and involving a lot more countries than the US, Japan, Taiwan, and the EU countries.
Also, it sounds to me like Taiwan bike manufacturers did to Japan what Japanese bike manufacturers (and car makers, and steel companies, and other manufacturers) did to the US and Europe starting in the mid-1960s: begin with the low-end market, take advantage of labor costs to make 'em cheaper to build up market share, build up expertise and capacity, and be prepared to pounce into mid- and higher-end markets when economic conditions put the then-current big guy on the block at a disadvantage. It's a tale that has been repeated a number of times going back to at least the Industrial Revolution, in a lot more industries than just bikes, and involving a lot more countries than the US, Japan, Taiwan, and the EU countries.
__________________
"I'm in shape -- round is a shape." Andy Rooney
"I'm in shape -- round is a shape." Andy Rooney
04-15-24, 04:22 PM
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,811
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3526 Post(s)
Liked 2,938 Times
in
1,781 Posts
So if Centurion isn’t Japanese, then neither is the Schwinn.
04-15-24, 04:50 PM
#28
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,638
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10995 Post(s)
Liked 7,519 Times
in
4,207 Posts
04-15-24, 04:51 PM
#29
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,638
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10995 Post(s)
Liked 7,519 Times
in
4,207 Posts
04-15-24, 05:01 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,811
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3526 Post(s)
Liked 2,938 Times
in
1,781 Posts
04-15-24, 05:10 PM
#31
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,638
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10995 Post(s)
Liked 7,519 Times
in
4,207 Posts
04-15-24, 05:17 PM
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2020
Location: Wake Forest, NC
Posts: 5,811
Bikes: 1989 Cinelli Supercorsa
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3526 Post(s)
Liked 2,938 Times
in
1,781 Posts
04-15-24, 05:45 PM
#33
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,638
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10995 Post(s)
Liked 7,519 Times
in
4,207 Posts
I specified that Centurion was not a Japanese brand because many people think it was, and also because it seemed to me like the OP was asking about Japanese brands specifically in his first post.
I then mentioned Schwinn because I was listing various info for when any production lugged frames were still produced.
Likes For mstateglfr:
04-15-24, 07:52 PM
#34
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,107
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked 1,575 Times
in
1,037 Posts
- Centurion wasnt Japanese, it was American and was just a brand owned by WSI. It was the sister company to Diamondback and dealt in paved bikes. It went away in 90/91 because WSI dropped it in favor of using Diamondback for all bikes.
- Taiwan was where lower end frames were built in the early and mid-80s. As the late-80s hit, higher level models moved from Japan to Taiwan due to straight cost as well as exchange rate challenges.
- Lugged frames for the US market were still built in Japan by major brands(mass production) into at least '93, but they were sometimes models that were aluminum, titanium, or CF. I have seen '93 Miyata and Fuji models that were made in Japan..
- During this general time, Panasonic left the US market in '89, Miyata left in '93, and Bridgestone left in '94. So when actual Japanese brands leave and the contract brands have mostly/completely moved to Taiwan, the result is not many mass produced lugged frames from Japan.
- The bulk of MTB production seems to have moved to Taiwan before the bulk of Road production. And with TIG gaining popularity in the early 90s, this also reduced the number of Japanese built lugged frames.
- Panasonic built some PDG Paramount road bikes for Schwinn in the early 90s that were lugged using OS Tange tubing. Those ended in '93, I believe.
So to actually answer you- '93-94 is the last I can think of for mass produced Japanese lugged bikes. '93 Schwinn Paramount PDG and '94 Bridgestone RB series.
- Taiwan was where lower end frames were built in the early and mid-80s. As the late-80s hit, higher level models moved from Japan to Taiwan due to straight cost as well as exchange rate challenges.
- Lugged frames for the US market were still built in Japan by major brands(mass production) into at least '93, but they were sometimes models that were aluminum, titanium, or CF. I have seen '93 Miyata and Fuji models that were made in Japan..
- During this general time, Panasonic left the US market in '89, Miyata left in '93, and Bridgestone left in '94. So when actual Japanese brands leave and the contract brands have mostly/completely moved to Taiwan, the result is not many mass produced lugged frames from Japan.
- The bulk of MTB production seems to have moved to Taiwan before the bulk of Road production. And with TIG gaining popularity in the early 90s, this also reduced the number of Japanese built lugged frames.
- Panasonic built some PDG Paramount road bikes for Schwinn in the early 90s that were lugged using OS Tange tubing. Those ended in '93, I believe.
So to actually answer you- '93-94 is the last I can think of for mass produced Japanese lugged bikes. '93 Schwinn Paramount PDG and '94 Bridgestone RB series.
Likes For Kontact:
04-15-24, 08:07 PM
#35
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,638
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10995 Post(s)
Liked 7,519 Times
in
4,207 Posts
I offered up a bunch of info that is actually related to your initial post and the discussion, which is better than like 80% of responses so far. Maybe focus on that.
04-15-24, 08:10 PM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Utah
Posts: 8,688
Bikes: Paletti,Pinarello Monviso,Duell Vienna,Giordana XL Super,Lemond Maillot Juane.& custom,PDG Paramount,Fuji Opus III,Davidson Impulse,Pashley Guv'nor,Evans,Fishlips,Y-Foil,Softride, Tetra Pro, CAAD8 Optimo,
Mentioned: 156 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2331 Post(s)
Liked 5,019 Times
in
1,786 Posts
Dang, reading some of the "remarks" here made go check to make sure I was on the usually calm and civil C&V forum. Thought I had accidently strayed to one of the others.
__________________
Steel is real...and comfy.
Steel is real...and comfy.
Likes For jamesdak:
04-15-24, 08:12 PM
#37
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,107
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked 1,575 Times
in
1,037 Posts
04-15-24, 08:41 PM
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,391
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2493 Post(s)
Liked 2,967 Times
in
1,685 Posts
General might be the section where you most frequently see thread death spirals involving two or more indefatigable posters flailing purses, but C&V isn't far behind. For relaxing, collegial threads, I like browsing the Clydesdale and Athena section.
04-15-24, 08:47 PM
#39
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,107
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked 1,575 Times
in
1,037 Posts
This should be a nice thread about when different models made it into the US. Just information, no need to correct anyone.
04-15-24, 09:08 PM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 2,806
Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1090 Post(s)
Liked 1,028 Times
in
724 Posts
But they were Taiwan and not Japan by 1992, there was a lugged bike above it that might have still been but the 1992 Perigee I bought with my hard earned lawn mowing dollars wasn't Japanese that I can recall. Still a good bike for getting going. From running across other examples, the previous years all had a clearly different head badge logo, while the rest of the decals were the same style, might have been a result of the switch.
04-15-24, 09:12 PM
#41
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,107
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked 1,575 Times
in
1,037 Posts
But they were Taiwan and not Japan by 1992, there was a lugged bike above it that might have still been but the 1992 Perigee I bought with my hard earned lawn mowing dollars wasn't Japanese that I can recall. Still a good bike for getting going. From running across other examples, the previous years all had a clearly different head badge logo, while the rest of the decals were the same style, might have been a result of the switch.
This is a thread about Asian lugged bicycles imported to the US.
04-15-24, 09:18 PM
#42
Junior Member
One of my biggest regrets from the two years I spent living in Japan was that I didn’t purchase a custom spec made per order Bridgestone (would have been branded as “Anchor”) or Panasonic lugged touring bike. I still remember the shop displays that mostly appeared to showcase the custom colors and graphics that could include your name. IIRC the price for a matching frame and fork was less than $400 USD in 2004.
Edit: The Anchor (Bridgestone) option may not have been lugged, my memory isn’t good enough and my Japanese is too poor to effectively google it, besides the shop that sold those was further away and I only went there a few times. The Panasonic options however were most certainly lugged, the shop that sold those was the one I frequented all of the time.
Edit: The Anchor (Bridgestone) option may not have been lugged, my memory isn’t good enough and my Japanese is too poor to effectively google it, besides the shop that sold those was further away and I only went there a few times. The Panasonic options however were most certainly lugged, the shop that sold those was the one I frequented all of the time.
Last edited by Nwvlvtnr; 04-16-24 at 09:02 AM.
Likes For Nwvlvtnr:
04-15-24, 09:23 PM
#43
Senior Member
There are multiple books and papers written about what happened in Japan in 1989. It's no surprise that a small market like "lugged bicycle frames" started to go away during that period, especially with newer technologies and cheaper building processes starting to emerge. Japan was never a huge player in that field in the first place as they did not have the heritage, master frame-makers nor make anything superior to their competition (like they were doing with cars and motorcycles throughout the 70's and 80's).
04-15-24, 09:26 PM
#44
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,107
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked 1,575 Times
in
1,037 Posts
There are multiple books and papers written about what happened in Japan in 1989. It's no surprise that a small market like "lugged bicycle frames" started to go away during that period, especially with newer technologies and cheaper building processes starting to emerge. Japan was never a huge player in that field in the first place as they did not have the heritage, master frame-makers nor make anything superior to their competition (like they were doing with cars and motorcycles throughout the 70's and 80's).
04-15-24, 10:25 PM
#45
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,638
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10995 Post(s)
Liked 7,519 Times
in
4,207 Posts
It ends up the clarification wasn't necessary and that's cool. It wasn't a big deal to begin with- it was simply one observation within a post that had a dozen observations.
04-15-24, 10:36 PM
#46
Friendship is Magic
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts: 22,988
Bikes: old ones
Mentioned: 304 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 26436 Post(s)
Liked 10,397 Times
in
7,222 Posts
__________________
04-15-24, 10:48 PM
#47
Senior Member
I'm not sure why you're that concerned with the "when" though. The "why" is vastly more interesting and makes timelines pretty easy to extrapolate out. If anything, I give Japanese bicycle manufacturers credit for being smart enough to see what was going on and peek into the future and know that a certain way would not be sustainable (I don't like it, but I get it). Even a lot of US bike manufacturers only held out for so much longer. When was the last time Trek actually made a lugged bicycle? Now they're in financial trouble for making "too much"...and none of what they made "too much" of appeals to the C&V in me.
04-16-24, 06:42 AM
#48
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,107
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4433 Post(s)
Liked 1,575 Times
in
1,037 Posts
I doubt you're going to ever find a definitive and specific date. But you can bet that 1989 was the beginning of the end for the small-ish bicycle market that Japan was exporting in the first place (and Japan was exporting A LOT of goods...which was another factor that some in the USA did not like). Just too many factors going against them during that time period. Again...there is so much to digest during that era that finding the "why" is going to be much easier than finding the "when".
I'm not sure why you're that concerned with the "when" though. The "why" is vastly more interesting and makes timelines pretty easy to extrapolate out. If anything, I give Japanese bicycle manufacturers credit for being smart enough to see what was going on and peek into the future and know that a certain way would not be sustainable (I don't like it, but I get it). Even a lot of US bike manufacturers only held out for so much longer. When was the last time Trek actually made a lugged bicycle? Now they're in financial trouble for making "too much"...and none of what they made "too much" of appeals to the C&V in me.
I'm not sure why you're that concerned with the "when" though. The "why" is vastly more interesting and makes timelines pretty easy to extrapolate out. If anything, I give Japanese bicycle manufacturers credit for being smart enough to see what was going on and peek into the future and know that a certain way would not be sustainable (I don't like it, but I get it). Even a lot of US bike manufacturers only held out for so much longer. When was the last time Trek actually made a lugged bicycle? Now they're in financial trouble for making "too much"...and none of what they made "too much" of appeals to the C&V in me.
And that's what the thread is about. You are welcome to start a why thread. I started this thread because I am genuinely curious what might have slipped through for a few years more that no one is thinking about.
This thread is also about Taiwan, and that story doesn't have as many whys.
04-16-24, 10:12 AM
#49
Senior Member
One of my biggest regrets from the two years I spent living in Japan was that I didn’t purchase a custom spec made per order Bridgestone (would have been branded as “Anchor”) or Panasonic lugged touring bike. I still remember the shop displays that mostly appeared to showcase the custom colors and graphics that could include your name. IIRC the price for a matching frame and fork was less than $400 USD in 2004.
Edit: The Anchor (Bridgestone) option may not have been lugged, my memory isn’t good enough and my Japanese is too poor to effectively google it, besides the shop that sold those was further away and I only went there a few times. The Panasonic options however were most certainly lugged, the shop that sold those was the one I frequented all of the time.
Edit: The Anchor (Bridgestone) option may not have been lugged, my memory isn’t good enough and my Japanese is too poor to effectively google it, besides the shop that sold those was further away and I only went there a few times. The Panasonic options however were most certainly lugged, the shop that sold those was the one I frequented all of the time.
__________________
Check out www.djcatnap.com for articles on vintage Japanese & French bicycle restorations, components and history.
Check out www.djcatnap.com for articles on vintage Japanese & French bicycle restorations, components and history.
04-16-24, 11:26 AM
#50
framebuilder
Back in the early 80's one of my engineering friends asked me why bicycle companies didn't tig weld their frames. I said that as far as I knew (which in reality was nothing), it couldn't be done cause they would break at the welded joints. I thought if they could do it, it would already be done. I think the Japanese company KHS made tig welded tandems (in the 80's?) but of course that was probably with heavier wall tubing.
Eventually I learned how to tig weld as well as braze. It is so much faster with less cleanup! I love lugs and that is what I teach my framebuilding students to use but they take time to shape and ream and blacksmith to the frame design. And they cost. As does the filler material - particularly if it is silver.
Eventually I learned how to tig weld as well as braze. It is so much faster with less cleanup! I love lugs and that is what I teach my framebuilding students to use but they take time to shape and ream and blacksmith to the frame design. And they cost. As does the filler material - particularly if it is silver.