EvilV

Ha ha ha - a patriotic attempt to save western manufacturing industry from global competition. The thing is, most of us know that Dahon and other manufacturers such as Downtube, have been perfectly able to bring the benefit of low cost to their customers by outsourcing the manufacturing, and unlike the lazy importers referenced in the article linked at the top of the thread who couldn't be arsed to check out what was delivered, they have managed to maintain acceptable and good quality - at least in line with their customer's expectations at the price they paid. If we only bought western made products, we would have many fewer goods to play with and we'd be paying a great deal more for them.

brakemeister

Its not even worth answering anything to this dribble

go and donate some cash to Tara Llanes road to recovery. Than you gonna get a real American Eagle , made here in the good ole USA.

thor

datako

It's really the old axiom - you get what you pay for.

(Regardless of the origin of the product.)

joose

I've noticed (from a UK viewpoint) that most companies that still manufacter products here are of the more traditional side of things. Morgan, Brompton, Pashley, Brooks, Aga etc. It seem that when we buy a traditional product, we want everything as much as possible to match how it was originally made. Now these products cost more because of higher labour and lower production runs but these are the companies that survive in Western manufacturing.

If you want state of the art, the R&D costs to keep up seem to cost so much that they have to be made in a lower cost country. If your willing to be behind the curve (as a bike maker), you can trade off your image and quality to maintain a business.

I think the companies that have chosen to compete at the very top have to take the decision to produce in the lowest cost country, maintain quality and plough the rest into R&D. Patriotic issues aside, state of the art requires it.

The other type of path is the Brompton way.

Having said that, if you were to start a bike company today (Lets use Downtube/Mezzo as a example) you have no heritage to sell on. So you go on costs and/or design. It's just logical I think. Now your bikes are no longer 'state of the art' designs (sorry Yan ) but this is your path into the industry when you can't compete on your past, or the exotic parts on your bike.

Timo888 - I'm not really sure where this topic is going? Apart from Yan, Thor etc we are just buyers and can't check the cross sections of metals etc. As long as my bike gives reasonable service I'm happy. If it falls to peices I will bring it back to the LBS and be protected by consumer law here. It's the supplier that has the issue, not me.

jur

No, pricing competition requires it. It's US. We want to buy stuff at dirt cheap throw-away prices. How often do we get the query on this subforum of such-and-such a 7kg bike requirements, and the budget is like $200? All the time. People don't want to spend their money, so the Far East is the only recourse for manufacturers to get something so cheap that people will buy it.

And since WE are the origin of all the cheap rubbish by creating a market for it in the first place, WE can't now very well go and complain about quality.

That aside, it is quite obvious that the manufacturing quality of Dahon is excellent. The frame materials are custom extruded for them, and the parts are custom spec'ed as well. It would be very hard to cut corners on those products without it becoming obvious. Their bikes represent really great value for money. I moan and groan about the hinge design but that has nothing to do with build quality. Dahon was the wrong brand to pick as an example of corner cutting. Other bikes which are built in the Far East with unspec'ed parts, are far more likely to have slightly cheaper parts with each batch.

Raxel

I want to point out again.

1. It is not sure that your 'made in xxx' bike is actually made in the country. They will be surely assembled there and maybe painted too. In fact, most of western bike manufactors CANNOT make a carbon fiber frame themselves, and they cannot make a high quality aluminum frame at reasonable cost. It is the reason that many western manufactors are still using steel - it is the only material they can use. And almost every quality bicycle parts are produced in asia. For example, shimano makes their best range of parts in Malaysia and low end parts in China.

2. In fact, bikes produced in UK actually use cheaper parts, given the same price point. A good example is brompton and moulton. They are good bikes, but their stock parts just suck. For example, TSR moulton uses a Kalloy stem, seatpost and handle bars. They are the cheapest available, which you can see in a bike at around $200. Brompton parts are worse still. Their rims are worse than those in $200 bike... compare those to the lightweight, niobium-enhanced rims of dahon folders.

timo888 

No, rather an attempt to save western workers from unfair competition that depends upon substandard conditions for the Chinese workers (in a variety of respects: health, safety, time-off, pay, etc) and upon a Chinese legal system that makes the Chinese manufacturer virtually immune to actions for fair redress.

As far as your supposition that the western company is too lazy or greedy to do quality checking, Midler's "quality fade" article makes the point that even when failures in quality are discovered by the western company, the western company often has very little leverage over the supplier in mainland China, for various reasons, the legal system being one of them.

Downtube has been mentioned several times by forum members, as a counterexample to the points made in my original post. I was not aware that their bikes were made in mainland China, but I see from searching the archives that this is the case. However, I also find references to a recent-model-year headset not being properly set up.

https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=475765

Whether that sort of issue is an aberration ... or evidence of the very sort of "quality fade" Midler points out ... is something only Yan could tell us.

Regards
T

timo888 

"suck" and "cheaper" are not clear .... do you mean likely to fail/break? Or just heavier than more expensive parts?

Regards
T

mconlonx

Standards for Chinese workers who export to the Western world are actually fairly high, compared to workers in factories for Chinese domestic product. They work to Western standards because they have to, forced to do so by Western consumer demand that passes through the Western company who sources in China. Any reputable US company will demand that factories meet international standards like ISO, JD Edwards, and even Disney. Not arguably, but demonstrably, Western manufacting interest in China has increased worker quality of life in factories working to Western standards.

A Chinese company that wants to maintain a continuing business relationship with a Western company knows better than to adopt this quality fade argument... unless the Western company puts undue pressure on that company to drive prices down. In the "march to zero" Western quest for cheap stuff, something has to give, and because price is paramount, quality can fade. But again, that's more on Western specification than Chinese manufacturing. Remember, Mattel apologized to China, not the other way around.

I have first hand experience dealing with Chinese manufacturing, and have yet to see any of this "quality fade" that is mentioned. Then again, we are spec-heavy first, and willing to work with vendors to assure quality rather than simply going with the lowest price. But it is our manufacturing buying philosophy, not Chinese manufacturing quality that drives it. Chinese manufacturers, like any other manufacturing concern, will give you exactly what you spec... If we ever found out a Chinese company was playing fast and loose with our specs, they simply wouldn't get contracts in the future and we'd find alternate Chinese vendors willing to do the same job to spec. The threat of losing business to the tune of $6million/yr usually keeps manufacturers on the straight and narrow--why would they risk losing that kind of business?

+1 to all of what EvilV has been saying, this coming from someone with firsthand Chinese manufacturing experience. Albeit books, kitting, and electronics, not bikes.

timo888 

But I am not comparing the standards of Chinese workers producing exports to the standards of Chinese workers producing products for Chinese domestic consumption; I'm comparing them to western standards.

Perhaps you should say "The better Chinese manufacturers will give you exactly what you spec." Midler cites instances where Chinese suppliers simply ignored the stated spec, and among the commenters on his article in the Wharton journal are those who concur and corroborate his view that such things do go on. That there are better manufacturers to be found is what makes Midler's services valuable...he can help steer his clients towards them.

Regards
T

EvilV

Oh God - this thread reminds me why I made a resolution to avoid arguing with tireless zealots.

Note to self - put site URL in hosts file preceded by 127.0.0.1 thus save wasted time for other things.

joose

But I am not comparing the standards of Chinese workers producing exports to the standards of Chinese workers producing products for Chinese domestic consumption; I'm comparing them to western standards.

Try as I might, this sentence is not making any sense to me. Can you rephrase it?

timo888 

If you argue with tireless zealots, you're a tireless zealot yourself. Also ad hominem attacks are unwarranted, you lowlife.

Regards
T

bykerouac

From looking at this thread and others, I have come to the conclusion that timo is a troll.

timo888 

OK, a paraphrase.

That chinese factory workers making exports have better working conditions and salaries than chinese factory workers producing goods for chinese domestic consumption was not a relevant rejoinder to my assertion that goods made in china cost less than goods produced in the west because chinese worker conditions and salaries are lower than those in the West, and this constitutes unfair trade as far as western labor is concerned.

In the US decades ago the garment industry was destroyed by sweat shops and child labor overseas.

Companies in the US that employ "illegal immigrants" and make them work long days 7 days a week and don't pay them overtime have an unfair advantage over companies that treat their workers humanely and fairly.

To cite yet another example of the underlying principle: several years ago, a company here in the States that made brooms sued the state of ________ (I can't remember which state it was) because the state had prisonsers in the state penitentiary making brooms for 10 cents/hour. The company making brooms simply could not compete with forced labor earning so little and it was going out of business.

Regards
T

EvilV

LOL - Oh - the irony of this is lovely as is its illogicality, but still.... I need to go and edit my hosts file.

mconlonx

You simply cannot compare the two. In context to their respective economies, many Chinese manufacturing employees are actually doing better than their western counterparts--their wages may be substantially lower than a comparable US worker, but their cost of living is so much lower that their comparative wages are actually higher. Usually one worker is supporting not only his own immediate family, but in many cases, also a large portion of a sizable extended family network as well. They have different values--one company told of having a hard time keeping workers because they adopted Disney standards, which limited the work week to 60hrs/wk. Workers left in droves to make more money at different factories where they could work longer hours by choice. One of the worst assumptions made in discussing situations like this is that Chinese workers have the same priorities as Western workers.

Again, this is on the US side of things--ignorant manufacturing coordinators making uninformed purchases do not consitute a problem on the Chinese manufacturing end of things. Because of my field of expertise, I could point you to any one of a number of Chinese book manufacturers who are reputable and will not go short on spec unless on you specify such due to price constraints. Conversely, I can also tell you tales of US vendors who are just as guilty of "quality fade" under "march to zero" pricing constraints.

timo888 

Really? I could see how you might (mistakenly) conclude from my pro-domestic-manufacture position that I was a shill for Bike Friday, say, or Brompton. But a troll? I ride a Xootr Swift and borrow my wife's Brompton. I like both bikes very much.

The ad hominem attacks are amusing. They show your minds are still on training-wheels.

Regards
T

joose

That chinese factory workers making exports have better working conditions and salaries than chinese factory workers producing goods for chinese domestic consumption was not a relevant rejoinder to my assertion that goods made in china cost less than goods produced in the west because chinese worker conditions and salaries are lower than those in the West, and this constitutes unfair trade as far as western labor is concerned.

In the US decades ago the garment industry was destroyed by sweat shops and child labor overseas.

Companies in the US that employ "illegal immigrants" and make them work long days 7 days a week and don't pay them overtime have an unfair advantage over companies that treat their workers humanely and fairly.

To cite yet another example of the underlying principle: several years ago, a company here in the States that made brooms sued the state of ________ (I can't remember which state it was) because the state had prisonsers in the state penitentiary making brooms for 10 cents/hour. The company making brooms simply could not compete with forced labor earning so little and it was going out of business.

Thanks, I understand the point you were making now.

timo888 

How can you blame the customer when the supplier cuts corners? The example that comes to mind from the article is the one where the supplier trimmed 10% of the aluminum from the spec. Are you suggesting by "uninformed purchases" that had the customer done due diligence, they would have chosen a better supplier? That's the only way I can make sense of your shifting of responsibility in such situations onto the customer.

Regards
T

mconlonx

Absolutely that's what I'm saying. And so is the author of the article, who sources manufacturing from reputable companies in China... It's also the responsibility of the importer to QC the product they have outsourced to make sure that it meets spec--not third party testing supplied by the Chinese manufacturer, but testing stateside on the importer's dime.

The author uses the case of shipping boxes suddenly collapsing. He does not mention if the importer supplied a shipping carton spec. We do, 275lb burst test strength--if the shipping cartons are not up to spec, the manufacturer pays to make it right or they don't get paid that part of the invoice. I'd be willing to bet that since the importer didn't spec shipping cartons, and kept looking for lower prices or at least flat line pricing on their product in the face of market price increases, they used carton spec as a way to cut costs. If this came as a surprise to the importer, again, they were not doing their job right.

The case of the missing aluminum you bring up points out that US importer caught the defect through testing--this isn't a problem, this is the way it's supposed to work. The implication on the part of the author is that had they sourced buying through him or someone like him, this would not have happened.

Using an import broker's biased argument to bolster your own views about domestic production is not perhaps the best approach.

bykerouac

This is exactly why you are a troll, coupled with the sensationalist title, attack on Dahon, among others. So you ride a Xootr Swift and a Brompton? Are they devoid of Chinese-made parts? From what i read here, you just like to engage in circular arguments.

joose

For those, like me, who are not up on their web lingo. What does Troll mean here? I keep having a image of Timo888 bothering goats crossing a bridge which I'm thinking is the wrong type of image I should be getting

vik 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion."

EvilV

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)