ImagineZH

I want to get an old steel frame and use it as a base to build my own bike. I know it's more expensive this way, but it seems like a nice project, I'll learn a lot about bikes, and I'll then have a second bike for short trips around the town. My current bike is a touring bike (Fuji disc) which in reality is nearly perfect for what I do (i.e. commuting, bike touring, etc.). I don't need a very light and fast road bike, so in reality I don't need this new frame, but I once had an old steel frame racer that I loved which unfortunately died, so I'm always tempted to fill that hole in my heart. The purpose of this new frame would be for shorter trips down to the lake or to town, meeting friends, etc. where I might have a small bag on my back and don't need the pannier rack, mudguards, and general heavy duty nature of my touring bike. I live in a hilly spot so a single speed wouldn't cut it.


The thing is, I'm not sure what to look out for in a suitable steel frame? I know the obvious things - it should be the right frame size, no rust, etc. But beyond that and into thread size, style, etc. I start to get lost. So how to know if it's good enough quality generally? Thanks!



e.g. of a few potential frames:

TIGRA Professionnel Reynolds 531 Frame Rennvelo Stahl Rahmen | Kaufen auf Ricardo

Vintage Reynolds 531 Campagnolo Rennvelo Rahmen TOPZUSTAND | Kaufen auf Ricardo

Stahlrahmen Columbus, size56 | Kaufen auf Ricardo

abdon 

More expensive? You must be young at this game, most of us could get a frame in the morning and be riding it in the evening just from the parts laying around. Then we get into our heads that we want to make it original and that's when the insanity starts...

I'm sure there are a gazillion 'how to buy a steel frame' on the internet. In general, avoid French threads, those can be a real pain in the arse. If the frame is nakid inspect the threads. If it still has parts slapped into it, well an entire subgenre of vintage mechaniking (the obscure verb form of that word) is how to take things apart that don't want to come apart. Worth learning or else you may get frustrated enough that would look for the nearest lake to chuck the frame in.

Pro tip: buy the first frame you find. Not because you would want it but to trick fate; the perfect frame usually shows up right after you spend the money on another one.

ImagineZH

Haha, thanks! I'm young at the game alright, so still have no notions of wanting to make it as original as possible. There are quiet a few guides alright, but few which deal with knowing what to look for in a frame beyond the obvious.

repechage

At least they are in the same size range.

map out what are the requirements. Geometry musts. Tire size preferences. Assuming 700c or tubulars.
Who will be doing the assembly?

in general, a complete bike will be less expensive. Purchase, adjust to fit as needed, adapt to it and note how the handling differs from what you otherwise have or recall.
a whole bike will provide answers quickly, then move to the next with some basis of comparison.

ImagineZH

Honestly? No idea. Tyre width 25 or 28 or so I guess. 700C. Geometry - no idea.
Me.
Yeah I'm sure a fully kitted bike would be cheaper and that's quite tempting at times, but I do like the idea of 'building' the bike myself, even though I'm at best a beginner in bike mechanics (relative to this forum - better than most compared to the whole population).

mpetry912 

also you want to look closely at the place where the head tube and downtube join - looks for any signs of paint cracking or flaking off - this is almost certainly signs of crash damage.

is the fork in line when viewed from above ?

Make sure you get the seat post clamp bolt, and headset & seatpost if possible.

Run your fingers along the tubes, feel for any ripple or irregularity - crash damage

Look for evidence of chain suck. Look very carefully for cracking at that drive side rear drop out - where it connects to the stays.

Shine a flashlight into the BB - are the tubes significantly rusted ?

etc etc

/markp

jdawginsc 

Ok. Some guiding questions...

1. establish size range (usually a 2-3 cm spread...I can ride 55.5 to 57.5 and not have to make terribly extensive adaptations, but 56 is my preferred)

2. Tubing: stick with Columbus (from SL down to Aelle...all good, or Reynolds 531 and you know you likely have a keeper.

3. Brakes: Centerpull, nutted side pull need no recessed mounting hole, cantilevers need braze-ons; dual pivot (except 1 brake) needed recessed mounting holes.

4. Most frames will accept 25, a lot 28, but 30 and up are hit and miss. Oddly, 70s frames seem to have better clearance than 80s. I can actually get 30s on a Colnago (who’d have thought). Stick with 700c frames.

5. Decide what braze-ons you want.

6. Check the top and down tubes for wrinkles or a fork that is not original. Rust is not the end of the world but check for break through rust or rust inside the tubes.

7. Try to find a frame with at least the headset, but preferably seatpost and bottom bracket as well.

8. Three different markets made component choices more difficult. French, BSA and Italian threading is something to keep in mind. Avoid Swiss threading.

Also, some parts need certain tools, and some frames need certain parts (dropout differences)

Components:
1. Some components are proprietary, though with friction shifters the world is your oyster.
2. Some do not fit all frames (front derailleurs and tube size mount, cassettes versus free wheels,
3. seatpost, bottombracket, headset sizes vary so be sure to check about compatibility. Not all cranks fit on all bottom bracket spindles.
4. Buying a donor bike (or complete) can be more cost effective. You will still remove and reinstall all components, just cheaper. If you like a frame by all means...but keep on the lookout for a cheaper bike to harvest parts from. Some good steel era parts are obviously early Shimano Dura Ace, 600, 600 tricolor, SunTour Superbe, Sprint, Cyclone and just about anything Campy.

5. Avoid fluted seatposts (they can allow water in).

Hopefully that helped.

soyabean

Then why even at all?

I'd rather spend my time cycling and improving at cycling instead of the same time put into a dumpster find.

When the opportunity rises, I pinch indoor stored mint condition fully-built vintage bikes, so all I have to do is tune them up new cables chain pads and then it's and ad listing and a fanboy buys it in a few days.

It's so easy. There are just SO MANY bikes for sale.

Just because I own more tools than the average LBS and perhaps have more experience than them, I don't go around building up bikes ground up because, like you, I don't NEED to.

smd4

So you want a vintage steel racing frame.

The ones you’re looking at are definitely racing frames. The steel used can also be a guide. Reynolds 531, Columbus SL, SLX; Tange Prestige, 1 or 2. Look for rust, ripples on top or down tubes where they join the head tube, any general signs of abuse. Make sure there aren’t any eyelets on the fork or rear dropouts (not generally used on racing frames from the 80s or 90s). Look for rust on the top tube cable guides.

Higher-quality frames will usually have two sets of water bottle bosses, a pump peg, and a chain hanger (looks like a nail on the inside of the right seat stay).

Don’t worry about geometry too much; a racing frame will have racing geometry by definition. Make sure you get the right size; don’t get too excited and jump on something that’s the wrong size because you like the color or the price or whatever. Be patient. Accept the fact that a vintage steel racing frame may not be able to accommodate larger tires. 25s will be fine, and possibly 28s.

Kontact

I do this often, and it can be very inexpensive if you build it up with vintage parts in good condition.

The easy recommendation is to go looking for big production brands of the '80s - Trek, Miyata, KHS, Centurion, Fuji, Nishiki, Lemond Bianchi, Specialized, Novara, Bridgestone. If you see an ad that sounds good, look up the model and find an oldcatalog online. They often have geometry and sizing information, plus tubing and other details.

All of those kind of bikes will be English thread and have standard derailleur hangers.

Aside from crash damage, check the input spots - dropouts, cable attachments, BB threads, etc.


Do consider full bikes. I often buy them and sell the boring group they came with on CL, keeping the wheels. This has often paid for the bike.

Spaghetti Legs 

I double checked to make sure I clicked in the right forum. For a lot of us, the building the bike from the ground up is part, in some cases, maybe even most fun.

I take it OP, you’re in Switzerland, based on the links. Quick glance at all of those bikes looks fine. Remember, the rear dropouts on an older late 70’s - 1980’s steel bike will be typically have rear dropouts spaced to 126 as opposed to 130 mm on later bikes designed for 8 speed and later. It might, but not always, present a challenge if you want to put a modern groupset on.

If you’re just riding around town and not bombing down super fast descents or long climbs, I wouldn’t worry about the geometry too much.

Classtime 

You will learn plenty by buying a complete bike and fixing/replacing the bits that are in need. You could make many unnece$$ary mistakes building your first C&V bike frame up. Buy a bike. break it down into little itty bitty pieces. Then build yourself a nice bike.

Trakhak

I second that suggestion.

In the U.S., anyway, high-quality complete vintage steel bikes are now often listed on Facebook Market, Craigslist, etc., at near-giveaway prices that are not much higher than, and sometimes lower than, prices for the equivalent frame alone.

In your position, I'd buy one of those complete vintage bikes and then take it apart, clean and adjust the components, and reassemble it. No compatibility issues, and a (slightly!) easier way to learn about working on bikes and what tools are necessary.

nlerner

I mostly build bikes up from the frame and fork. But I have a deep parts bin and rarely have to buy anything new; mostly it's a matter of mixing and matching to find compatible parts or fulfill some wacky vision I might have. I've often seen on this forum the advice to buy a complete bike and switch the parts over to your frame, which seems like a good idea if you don't have the parts in the first place. Otherwise, the info on checking for frame damage is important (beware the replacement fork!), and something that has an English-threaded bottom bracket and headset will likely give you the most amount of options. It's definitely lots of fun to build up a frame from scratch, essentially a blank canvas for you to express something or other.

jdawginsc 

Echoing this, it’s fun to look for/find the parts as well, though expensive...but I imagine there are a lot of shops in your vicinity that might have little hidden gems! My assumption could be completely off though!

soyabean

Bikes I love buying the most are frankenstiens.

Basically at one point someone really loved that enough to give it so many goodies like:

10x groupsets
double walled presta wheelsets
extra set double walled presta wheelsets in their bags
aftermarket $$$ cantilevers
aftermarket $$$ indexed thumb shifters
brooks saddles
new condition Schwalbes (thank you very much)

They often come from apathetic sellers that don't own the bike.

But that surely isn't my fault when I tell them I'm available now and pay them the $50 advertised.

And if they say it's been reserved for someone else, I often bribe the seller with another $10-20 to ignore the other buyer. That one sounds illegal, but I assure you it is not and I'm ok steamrolling over slowpokes all the time.

Early bird gets the worm.

Trakhak

The OP has no bin full of parts and very little experience working on bikes. Maybe the next one after this first bike is the one the OP should buy as a frame and build up. For now, the fewer obstacles, the better.

A cautionary tale for the OP to consider:
During the pandemic, I bought a new old stock 15-year-old Felt TT frame (without fork) from an online outlet for $80 and built it using some parts I had on hand but mostly stuff I had to chase down on line. I was a service manager for a couple of bike shops decades ago and assembled plenty of bikes from the ground up (especially back when Trek and then Cannondale bikes were shipped with the frame and fork in one box and the components in another), so I had plenty of experience, but it was still a frustrating few months, and cost quite a bit more money than I'd anticipated to get the bike up and running.

Sure, it's a nice bike, but I wouldn't go that route again.

soyabean

By the looks of it, it's just you.

But that's ok.

I'm going to do some cycling now.

I think that's most fun.

SwimmerMike 

My advice is a mix of the above Frame and bike purchase. Make sure the frame is in good shape (a lot of discussion above). Buy the frame you like in the right size. Find a "parts bike" that has the part you like, now you don't need to worry too much about the frame condition or size. Sourcing all the right parts can get really expensive. Sourcing a bike with the right parts on it, especially when you don't need to worry about size/condition of the frame can be really cheap. You may even need to source 2 "donor" bikes, but it will be way cheaper than sourcing individual parts.

smd4

Nope. Not just him.

Classtime 

Are you lost?

steine13

What smd64 said. It's me, too

I love the wrenching aspect, or I think I do.
Then I have to do the work, which I'm capable off at a basic level, but I find it takes me forever, and it's futzy. So I drag my feet on it.

For me, the real reward is RIDING the bike when I have it JUST SO.

I get the most satisfaction out of finding a solution that really works well, for my type of riding.
My best bike for riding with friends, or long rides in good weather, is a too-large Cannondale ST from the 80s, with 9 speed STI bar-ends and 32 mm tires. That's nothing rare or special, but it works great for the kind of roads I ride, and I have the fit dialed in.

Today I finally started working on a Trek 710 that won't fit fenders with 700x32s, so it's getting 650b'd, and I spent an eternity getting the rear wheel trued and centered. I think it'll be great when it's done, and it's mine in a way I can't buy ready made, new or used.

cheers -mathias

ImagineZH

Thanks everyone for all the advice and feedback, some interesting things to consider. Buying a full bike definitely seems like the smart thing to do, but a (possibly egotistical) part of me would like to be able to point at the finished bike and say "I put that together". But perhaps that's not enough of a reason to go for the full build, especially since reading this thread and the responses I see more and more how out of my depth I will be. But maybe that's part of the fun?

Yep indeed, I'm in Switzerland. I won't be bombing around on it, though I do live in a hilly enough area and in particular at the top of a steep enough hill. But I'm used to it, and am cautious enough, so I think it should be fine.

jdawginsc 

Its not egotistical at all. Building a bike is fun. And you have another to ride in the meantime while you search for all of the parts!

1989Pre 

From the type-of riding you have described, and because you have made it a priority to learn from this build, one observation is that you do not need a top-level frame of 531 or Columbus. What make/model was your older bike that met its match? Do you want to create something similar? Although some have advised against "french-threaded" bikes, there are some great (and inexpensive) French frames out there, and if you buy one with the bottom bracket and headset already installed, you should be fine. If you buy over the internet, remind the seller to take extra care in packing, especially chocking the dropouts and fork ends.