Tragic story leads to change
#2
Happy banana slug
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arcata, California, U.S., North America, Earth, Saggitarius Arm, Milky Way
Posts: 3,696
Bikes: 1984 Araya MB 261, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper Sport, 1993 Hard Rock Ultra, 1994 Trek Multitrack 750, 1995 Trek Singletrack 930
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1533 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
917 Posts
#4
Happy banana slug
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Arcata, California, U.S., North America, Earth, Saggitarius Arm, Milky Way
Posts: 3,696
Bikes: 1984 Araya MB 261, 1992 Specialized Rockhopper Sport, 1993 Hard Rock Ultra, 1994 Trek Multitrack 750, 1995 Trek Singletrack 930
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1533 Post(s)
Liked 1,530 Times
in
917 Posts
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,408
Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,982 Times
in
1,921 Posts
works for me
__________________
-Oh Hey!
-Oh Hey!
#7
Senior Member
I'm pessimistic. The good news is that the politicians are recognizing the streets need to be safer. The bad news is that they will have to go through the backlash from drivers just like every city in the world who had to go through their own transition. Only time will tell if the city will stick to their g*ns or wash down all safety proposals to appease drivers (who are also voters).
You know what happens everytime a bill is introduced after a mass sh**ting. The same dynamics occur in regards to safe streets too.
You know what happens everytime a bill is introduced after a mass sh**ting. The same dynamics occur in regards to safe streets too.
Likes For Daniel4:
#8
Newbie
Join Date: Jun 2022
Location: Florida
Posts: 55
Bikes: 1989 Dahon Stainless Steel Classic, 1993 Burley Samba Mixte tandem, 2002 Gary Fisher Hoo Koo E Koo, 2003 Co-Motion Speedster tandem, 2021 Trek Verve 3, 2021 Priority Current
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times
in
20 Posts
The title and the whole newscast makes it sound mostly like it's bikes and ebikes crashing into each other that is killing people! "Crashes involving bikes" and such. I assume they mean cars and trucks are involved and killing cyclists but they never actually say so other than one reference to "educating drivers."
..and no, Carlsbad, I don't think education is going to do much because the audience in unreceptive. You have to change the infrastructure - minimize interactions, increase physical buffers, lower speeds.
..and no, Carlsbad, I don't think education is going to do much because the audience in unreceptive. You have to change the infrastructure - minimize interactions, increase physical buffers, lower speeds.
Likes For dmwill:
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Elevation 666m Edmonton Canada
Posts: 2,484
Bikes: 2013 Custom SA5w / Rohloff Tourster
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1237 Post(s)
Liked 324 Times
in
249 Posts
From what I see now, 99% of the two wheel clueless clods are on e-bikes and pogo-stick scooters. The latter's whole purpose is to clown around with your friends.
A couple years ago I had a shoulder crash with one of them on a narrow sidewalk, going to a bridge only used by cars. He was not going single file.
The last fatal here was 2 years ago by a new e-bike user who should have known better of risks. He was a senior fireman. I guess he didn't expect the trailer behind the 5 ton truck.
Many buying e-bikes are not graduating from pedal bikes, IMO. Or maybe they haven't been on bikes in years.
A couple years ago I had a shoulder crash with one of them on a narrow sidewalk, going to a bridge only used by cars. He was not going single file.
The last fatal here was 2 years ago by a new e-bike user who should have known better of risks. He was a senior fireman. I guess he didn't expect the trailer behind the 5 ton truck.
Many buying e-bikes are not graduating from pedal bikes, IMO. Or maybe they haven't been on bikes in years.
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 08-25-22 at 02:00 PM.
Likes For GamblerGORD53:
#10
ignominious poltroon
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 4,056
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2245 Post(s)
Liked 3,449 Times
in
1,808 Posts
Part of the problem is that the vehicles depicted in the Youtube video/newscast have more in common with motorcycles than they do bicycles:
But unlike true motorcycles, they don't require a license, and people (including the children featured in the clip) feel free to drive them through crosswalks, on sidewalks, etc.
But unlike true motorcycles, they don't require a license, and people (including the children featured in the clip) feel free to drive them through crosswalks, on sidewalks, etc.
#11
Full Member
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Albuquerque NM USA
Posts: 492
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 304 Times
in
194 Posts
Many of the ebikes in the video appeared to have throttles, where no pedaling is required. I think these might be class II ebikes. I too, think this makes them more like electric motorcycles rather than bikes. There were no details on the accidents, but I suspect in many cases, the ebike riders where going too fast simply because the power allows them the ability to go too fast. Throw in the fact the bikes, at times, rightfully shouldn't be restricted to roads, and it seems like an accident ready to happen.
My wife has a class I ebike and those require pedaling and only assist up to 20 MPH. It works out perfectly, you can't really go too fast, generally speaking, and you at least have to pedal to get the power assist.
My wife has a class I ebike and those require pedaling and only assist up to 20 MPH. It works out perfectly, you can't really go too fast, generally speaking, and you at least have to pedal to get the power assist.
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Northampton, MA
Posts: 1,909
Bikes: 36" Unicycle, winter knock-around hybrid bike
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 930 Post(s)
Liked 393 Times
in
282 Posts
But unlike true motorcycles, they don't require a license, and people (including the children featured in the clip) feel free to drive them through crosswalks, on sidewalks, etc.
There were no details on the accidents, but I suspect in many cases, the ebike riders where going too fast simply because the power allows them the ability to go too fast. Throw in the fact the bikes, at times, rightfully shouldn't be restricted to roads, and it seems like an accident ready to happen.
My wife has a class I ebike and those require pedaling and only assist up to 20 MPH. It works out perfectly, you can't really go too fast, generally speaking, and you at least have to pedal to get the power assist.
But that's kind of beside the point - there are plenty of specific situations where even 10 mph is unsafely fast for someone without a highly developed sense of where the dangers in interacting with traffic they need to watch and slow for actually are. And unfortunately, a lot of popular design formats for so-called "bike lanes" tend to create even more of these situations where the design of the bike infrastructure itself encourages or even requires inexperienced cyclists to naively engage in dangerous habits such as:
- Passing stopped or slowing traffic at a speed no one expects when the big obvious vehicles blocking the view aren't moving
- Entering intersections in an unexpected position for through traffic, eg from a lane, path or sidewalk on the wrong side of a turning lane.
- Riding through intersections or past driveways while moving against traffic on sidewalk or worse a path or lane unwisely designed counterflow
- Riding in the door zone, or even squeezing between a vehicle that's stopped to load/unload and the curb or parked cars
Unfortunately, we've decided against making any real effort to educate users on the sources of danger, what to watch for, and prudent choice of speeds, and gotten distracted instead into pretending that the only useful solution is to slowly construct routes that actually encourage many of these dangerously naive habits.
Really what we should be doing with the electric two wheeled vehicle technology is encouraging light duty, registered, insured electric motorcycles/mopeds as a direct replacement for conventional cars, using the same routes and infrastructure that cars do. Select bike bypass routes can make sense, and recreational bike routes can make sense. But there's no way we can retrofit into an already built an environment a complete alternate network that goes to so many of the places it needs to in a way that's safe to use even at average pedal bike speeds; the only thing we can plausibly offer that's safe at the sorts of 20+ mph speeds desired by someone who buys something with a motor to commute on, are the actual roads themselves.
Last edited by UniChris; 08-27-22 at 04:24 AM.
#13
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Lincoln Ne
Posts: 9,924
Bikes: RANS Stratus TerraTrike Tour II
Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3352 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times
in
635 Posts
E-bike have allowed many that havent cycled before to get on bikes and ride. Being new riders they are not experienced in all the safety rules a cyclist should know.
If they kept in mind every single car out there is driven by a nut. and wants to hit them, it would be a good idea to keep in mind while riding.
If they kept in mind every single car out there is driven by a nut. and wants to hit them, it would be a good idea to keep in mind while riding.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18382 Post(s)
Liked 4,515 Times
in
3,355 Posts
I agree, there are a lot of E-Bikes in that film clip.
The news clip doesn't differentiate between pedal bikes and e-bikes being involved with the accidents.
So, considering safety is important. And, it is more than just strapping on a skull cap.
I like the idea of safety training for young riders (or any new riders).
One thing I've wondered about e-bikes is if they are able to sneak up on vehicle's right side. So, say if I drive 1/2 mile on a road, I'll know if I've passed any bicycles before making a right hand turn at a stop light. On the other hand, if an e-bike is cruising 30 to 40 MPH up the bike lane, then passing on the right, it is possible they could sneak up and be missed.
The news clip doesn't differentiate between pedal bikes and e-bikes being involved with the accidents.
So, considering safety is important. And, it is more than just strapping on a skull cap.
I like the idea of safety training for young riders (or any new riders).
One thing I've wondered about e-bikes is if they are able to sneak up on vehicle's right side. So, say if I drive 1/2 mile on a road, I'll know if I've passed any bicycles before making a right hand turn at a stop light. On the other hand, if an e-bike is cruising 30 to 40 MPH up the bike lane, then passing on the right, it is possible they could sneak up and be missed.
#15
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,408
Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,982 Times
in
1,921 Posts
e-bicycles imo are motorized equipment. pathways & sidewalks etc laws should not treat them any different.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
-Oh Hey!
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18382 Post(s)
Liked 4,515 Times
in
3,355 Posts
#17
Full Member
Join Date: Jan 2022
Location: Albuquerque NM USA
Posts: 492
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 304 Times
in
194 Posts
Pedal assist class I ebikes are very different than a throttle controlled vehicle, electric or gas. Yes, there are many who use the assist to ride too fast for the conditions. But, I see plenty of riders on standard bikes doing the same thing.
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: SE Wyoming
Posts: 604
Bikes: 1995 Specialized Rockhopper,1989 Specialized Rock Combo, 2013 Specialized Tarmac Elite
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 213 Post(s)
Liked 588 Times
in
278 Posts
I'm reluctant to hate on ebikes because my riding buddy, 79 years old and on oxygen 24/7 after 20 years of COPD, could not ride without battery and pedal assist. We ride MUPs in two different communities. Yes, there are standard bikes riding what I consider too fast for paths with walkers, joggers, and kids. But throttle ebikes with big tires seem to be ridden by those without much experience on pedal bikes and in excess of the posted speed limits. One passed me on the right without warning, no helmet, earbuds so couldn't or wouldn't respond to my request for passing notification. I have no answers.
#19
Senior Member
A lot of this discussion is specifically about ebike and their riders.
My question would be have these people ever ridden bicycles before? If so, were they as oblivious to road safety before or is it someting that gives them more power that makes them careless just as ir does to motorists.
Or did they hop from driving directly to ebikes skipping the experience of being a vulnerable road user and maintaining their bad driving habits to ebiking?
My question would be have these people ever ridden bicycles before? If so, were they as oblivious to road safety before or is it someting that gives them more power that makes them careless just as ir does to motorists.
Or did they hop from driving directly to ebikes skipping the experience of being a vulnerable road user and maintaining their bad driving habits to ebiking?
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Mich
Posts: 7,408
Bikes: RSO E-tire dropper fixie brifter
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Liked 2,982 Times
in
1,921 Posts
painted line bicycle lanes that "sharing" the road is fine, but the designated thru ways that peds use (walking/running, riding 100% self powered bicycles, etc) should be off limits to E-bicycles. That being said, those that are E-Bicyle users might start writing their congress for more & improved Bicycle lanes.
__________________
-Oh Hey!
-Oh Hey!
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Posts: 27,547
Mentioned: 217 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18382 Post(s)
Liked 4,515 Times
in
3,355 Posts
A lot of this discussion is specifically about ebike and their riders.
My question would be have these people ever ridden bicycles before? If so, were they as oblivious to road safety before or is it someting that gives them more power that makes them careless just as ir does to motorists.
Or did they hop from driving directly to ebikes skipping the experience of being a vulnerable road user and maintaining their bad driving habits to ebiking?
My question would be have these people ever ridden bicycles before? If so, were they as oblivious to road safety before or is it someting that gives them more power that makes them careless just as ir does to motorists.
Or did they hop from driving directly to ebikes skipping the experience of being a vulnerable road user and maintaining their bad driving habits to ebiking?
But there may be some real differences between the groups of cyclists.
Most bikes in the garages either just stay in the garages, or perhaps are taken out for a mile or two around neighborhoods or around parks.
Those that are doing 5+, or perhaps 10+ mile each way commutes on public roads are few and far between. And the riders get a lot of experience on the road.
Put E-Bikes in the mix, and the bikes are moving faster than the more experienced pedal cyclists. And, suddenly they feel they have the ability to go anywhere. I.E. further distances and around more cars.
Potentially opening up longer distances to younger cyclists.
Then, there are also higher speed bicycle/pedestrian interactions.
So, yes, it is possible that E-Bikes could be a problem. But, really it is also something that needs statistical analysis.
I bet one could get some kind of radio magnetic signal from E-Bikes, and get a pretty accurate count of them on different paths. Then look at actual crash data for different groups of cyclists.