Groupset tiers and diminishing returns
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
Groupset tiers and diminishing returns
Just thinking about building up a new road bike for next season. Money no object build but....
I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?
I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,880
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6963 Post(s)
Liked 10,964 Times
in
4,689 Posts
Just thinking about building up a new road bike for next season. Money no object build but....
I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?
I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?
Likes For Koyote:
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
Not true. I would buy the top tier groupset if there was a good reason. So I'm asking if there is a good technical reason why I should? Do they last longer, shift better, or are they more reliable, etc? My intuition is that they are just grossly over-priced for extremely marginal gains - or even losses if more fragile parts.
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times
in
252 Posts
Yeah, saving a hundred grams on a groupset is really pointless (exception being top tier chains which are a hair more efficient) in terms of what it does. That's worth seconds up an actual mountain.
But when I found discounted DA shifters and derailleurs last year I grabbed them anyway and upgraded from 105, so do as I say, not as I do. My excuse was the 105s were scuffed up in a crash and the FD was trashed and replaced with a DA one, and the scuffed shifters and mismatched gruppo looked plain unsightly.
Eh. In my defense, I don't have any other expensive tastes except bikes, which are pretty tame all things considered. There's no rational reason to buy DA over Ultegra. Nevertheless...
But when I found discounted DA shifters and derailleurs last year I grabbed them anyway and upgraded from 105, so do as I say, not as I do. My excuse was the 105s were scuffed up in a crash and the FD was trashed and replaced with a DA one, and the scuffed shifters and mismatched gruppo looked plain unsightly.
Eh. In my defense, I don't have any other expensive tastes except bikes, which are pretty tame all things considered. There's no rational reason to buy DA over Ultegra. Nevertheless...
#5
Expired Member
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: TN
Posts: 11,543
Mentioned: 37 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3674 Post(s)
Liked 5,432 Times
in
2,759 Posts
#6
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,988
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6193 Post(s)
Liked 4,810 Times
in
3,318 Posts
Of course the gains over the lower tier groups are marginal. But that's what getting that last nth degree of performance is.
I too say if money doesn't matter, why not get what is supposed to be and generally recognized as the top performing product group. Just the name recognition alone might move you up near the front of any group you ride with. And you won't be able to blame as much of your own inability on the bike.
If I didn't have to settle for third and second best, I would be riding new Dura Ace.
I too say if money doesn't matter, why not get what is supposed to be and generally recognized as the top performing product group. Just the name recognition alone might move you up near the front of any group you ride with. And you won't be able to blame as much of your own inability on the bike.
If I didn't have to settle for third and second best, I would be riding new Dura Ace.
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 786
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 338 Post(s)
Liked 408 Times
in
252 Posts
The weight difference is worth 13 seconds on the biggest climb in my country.
I find these predictions to be very accurate for solo efforts. Whether that difference is relevant to you, well 🤷
I find these predictions to be very accurate for solo efforts. Whether that difference is relevant to you, well 🤷
Last edited by Branko D; 09-05-21 at 08:35 AM.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Mission Viejo
Posts: 5,806
Bikes: 1986 Cannondale SR400 (Flat bar commuter), 1988 Cannondale Criterium XTR, 1992 Serotta T-Max, 1995 Trek 970
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1944 Post(s)
Liked 2,164 Times
in
1,323 Posts
I haven’t kept up to date on the Dura Ace/XTR differences between the lower groups. In the past the top groups offered less cassette range than the lower groups.
I don’t know if that still holds true, but there was some merit that if you buy the top group your not going to be using it in lower level performance situation.
I assume you are going with Di2. If so, just compare specs and if everything fits what you want, and buy the highest level.
John
I don’t know if that still holds true, but there was some merit that if you buy the top group your not going to be using it in lower level performance situation.
I assume you are going with Di2. If so, just compare specs and if everything fits what you want, and buy the highest level.
John
#9
Senior Member
Just thinking about building up a new road bike for next season. Money no object build but....
I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?
I'm really struggling to see any point in going for a top tier groupset i.e. DuraAce/Red Etap/Super Record. They just don't seem to offer any advantage remotely in proportion to their extra cost over second or even third tier groups.
Other than vanity and a few pointless gram savings, is there any point?
#10
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,880
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6963 Post(s)
Liked 10,964 Times
in
4,689 Posts
Not true. I would buy the top tier groupset if there was a good reason. So I'm asking if there is a good technical reason why I should? Do they last longer, shift better, or are they more reliable, etc? My intuition is that they are just grossly over-priced for extremely marginal gains - or even losses if more fragile parts.
But okay, I'll play. Dura Ace comes with a three-year warranty, other Shimano gear brings a two-year warranty. That suggests that D/A is more reliable, in addition to being lighter and built better. Whether that is worth the extra cost is a natural question, and nothing to deny. It's a valid question.
Likes For Koyote:
#11
Randomhead
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,397
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,698 Times
in
2,518 Posts
Buy 105, it works fine. Your friends might sneer at you though.
But the weight does add up. Reduced weight costs a lot for marginal gains. Usually the crank produces the most weight savings/$
But the weight does add up. Reduced weight costs a lot for marginal gains. Usually the crank produces the most weight savings/$
Likes For unterhausen:
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Lebanon (Liberty Hill), CT
Posts: 8,473
Bikes: CAAD 12, MASI Gran Criterium S, Colnago World Cup CX & Guru steel
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1743 Post(s)
Liked 1,281 Times
in
740 Posts
Not true. I would buy the top tier groupset if there was a good reason. So I'm asking if there is a good technical reason why I should? Do they last longer, shift better, or are they more reliable, etc? My intuition is that they are just grossly over-priced for extremely marginal gains - or even losses if more fragile parts.
Likes For bruce19:
#13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
Likes For PeteHski:
#14
On Your Left
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,433 Times
in
1,187 Posts
When my son started at age 15 doing triathlons and crits on his on a Specialized Allez with 105 ($700) and regularly finished ahead of others with much more expensive bikes. At 17 he saved up enough to get a Cervelo P2 with Rival ($2100) and again finished ahead of many with Dura Ace. He replaced the Allez with a Trek Madone 6.2 with Force at age 21 since he was working at a LBS and got a mechanics discount. He chose Force over Red purely for the cost savings and he felt that Force with wear less.
The point is you can't speed if you're not already fast.
Now I went with Red eTap from Rival simply because I could afford it.
The point is you can't speed if you're not already fast.
Now I went with Red eTap from Rival simply because I could afford it.
Likes For GlennR:
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
If you are questioning the cost of some marginal gains, it is not a "money no object build." Your decision is substantively identical to wondering if Ultegra is worth the additional cost compared to 105.
But okay, I'll play. Dura Ace comes with a three-year warranty, other Shimano gear brings a two-year warranty. That suggests that D/A is more reliable, in addition to being lighter and built better. Whether that is worth the extra cost is a natural question, and nothing to deny. It's a valid question.
But okay, I'll play. Dura Ace comes with a three-year warranty, other Shimano gear brings a two-year warranty. That suggests that D/A is more reliable, in addition to being lighter and built better. Whether that is worth the extra cost is a natural question, and nothing to deny. It's a valid question.
So I get an extra year of warranty. I didn’t know that so that’s good info. If it really is more reliable then that would be worthwhile. But I’m hearing mixed views on that.
btw last time I debated between Ultegra and 105 I chose 105 and would do the same again. But as I’m looking to go electronic this time, 105 is not an option.
#16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
When my son started at age 15 doing triathlons and crits on his on a Specialized Allez with 105 ($700) and regularly finished ahead of others with much more expensive bikes. At 17 he saved up enough to get a Cervelo P2 with Rival ($2100) and again finished ahead of many with Dura Ace. He replaced the Allez with a Trek Madone 6.2 with Force at age 21 since he was working at a LBS and got a mechanics discount. He chose Force over Red purely for the cost savings and he felt that Force with wear less.
The point is you can't speed if you're not already fast.
Now I went with Red eTap from Rival simply because I could afford it.
The point is you can't speed if you're not already fast.
Now I went with Red eTap from Rival simply because I could afford it.
#17
On Your Left
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Long Island, New York, USA
Posts: 8,373
Bikes: Trek Emonda SLR, Sram eTap, Zipp 303
Mentioned: 34 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3004 Post(s)
Liked 2,433 Times
in
1,187 Posts
I can say i've rented a Emonda SL6 with Ultegra mechanical while on vacation 3 times and there is a real difference, but the SLr is more than 3x the cost of the SL.
Just yesterday I was at the LBS and they had a bike with Rival eTap.. i didn't ride it.
One last comment, I have Rival CX1 on my CX bike and it is really nice.
I like Sram over Shimano because I like the Sram shifters over the Shimano shifters, otherwise I have no issue with Shimano.
#18
Senior Member
Not true. I would buy the top tier groupset if there was a good reason. So I'm asking if there is a good technical reason why I should? Do they last longer, shift better, or are they more reliable, etc? My intuition is that they are just grossly over-priced for extremely marginal gains - or even losses if more fragile parts.
#19
SE Wis
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 10,515
Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970
Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2747 Post(s)
Liked 3,396 Times
in
2,056 Posts
This is really a question only you can answer based on your cost/benefit criteria.
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 9,201
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1186 Post(s)
Liked 289 Times
in
177 Posts
Dura Ace comes with a three-year warranty, other Shimano gear brings a two-year warranty. That suggests that D/A is more reliable, in addition to being lighter and built better. Whether that is worth the extra cost is a natural question, and nothing to deny. It's a valid question.
#21
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,218
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2582 Post(s)
Liked 5,639 Times
in
2,921 Posts
Pete, think of it like really hot rodding your favorite sports car motor. What comes stock - say Ultegra - is very functional, durable and reliable. You can then throw cubic dollars to make it faster, but you quickly reach the point of diminishing returns by spending big bucks. If you were a competitive racer, the saving grams and sacrificing durability makes sense, but if you are a hard core recreational rider, then a step down from the top will still give you excellent functionality and durability with sacrificing very little.
I want the same route when building my frame a year ago and even though Dura Ace or Super Record looked sexy (and I could afford them) and might give me a bit of ‘cred’, I just couldn’t justify the reach for what it offered above one step down. Good luck
. I appreciate your prudent approach since it reflects mine .
I want the same route when building my frame a year ago and even though Dura Ace or Super Record looked sexy (and I could afford them) and might give me a bit of ‘cred’, I just couldn’t justify the reach for what it offered above one step down. Good luck
. I appreciate your prudent approach since it reflects mine .
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Likes For rsbob:
#22
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
I went from a 2011 Trek Madone 4.6 to a Emonda SLR with Red eTap and Zipp 303 wheels. Really impossible to compare head to head.
I can say i've rented a Emonda SL6 with Ultegra mechanical while on vacation 3 times and there is a real difference, but the SLr is more than 3x the cost of the SL.
Just yesterday I was at the LBS and they had a bike with Rival eTap.. i didn't ride it.
One last comment, I have Rival CX1 on my CX bike and it is really nice.
I like Sram over Shimano because I like the Sram shifters over the Shimano shifters, otherwise I have no issue with Shimano.
I can say i've rented a Emonda SL6 with Ultegra mechanical while on vacation 3 times and there is a real difference, but the SLr is more than 3x the cost of the SL.
Just yesterday I was at the LBS and they had a bike with Rival eTap.. i didn't ride it.
One last comment, I have Rival CX1 on my CX bike and it is really nice.
I like Sram over Shimano because I like the Sram shifters over the Shimano shifters, otherwise I have no issue with Shimano.
Rival etap is on the cards as much for its current availability as anything else.
#23
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
#24
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
If you study the shimano line up youll see many little differences that all add cost and shave a little weight Is the top tier price justified? I dunno, possibly not. Imo the real difference in disc vs rim, mech vs electronic, power meter vs no power meter, etc ...Much more so than 105 vs Ultegra in the same configuration.
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,434
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4409 Post(s)
Liked 4,861 Times
in
3,007 Posts
Pete, think of it like really hot rodding your favorite sports car motor. What comes stock - say Ultegra - is very functional, durable and reliable. You can then throw cubic dollars to make it faster, but you quickly reach the point of diminishing returns by spending big bucks. If you were a competitive racer, the saving grams and sacrificing durability makes sense, but if you are a hard core recreational rider, then a step down from the top will still give you excellent functionality and durability with sacrificing very little.
I want the same route when building my frame a year ago and even though Dura Ace or Super Record looked sexy (and I could afford them) and might give me a bit of ‘cred’, I just couldn’t justify the reach for what it offered above one step down. Good luck
. I appreciate your prudent approach since it reflects mine .
I want the same route when building my frame a year ago and even though Dura Ace or Super Record looked sexy (and I could afford them) and might give me a bit of ‘cred’, I just couldn’t justify the reach for what it offered above one step down. Good luck
. I appreciate your prudent approach since it reflects mine .