heidelbergensis 

Greetings everyone!

So, I wanted to reach out to the forums with an issue that I'm having with a 9-speed Campy Record rear hub. Well, specifically, the mechanic at my LBS. He has twenty-five years of wheel-building experience, so I don't doubt his skills. He's never really encountered an issue like this before.

I've owned three secondhand sets of wheels built with this specific hubset, and have had them trued in the past without issue. After the rear wheel on my current set developed a significant hop, I decided to have both wheels rebuilt. The front wheel went fine, but the rear hub just wouldn't tension up properly. While trying to achieve the correct dish, the driveside spokes would have to be impossibly tight, to the point that my mechanic would round out nipples, and still not achieve a true and dished wheelset. This happened multiple times. We even tried two different rims - Velo-orange Enterprise and then finally H+Son TB-14s, both with the same result. I decided to track down another rear hub, as the one we were using was, admittedly, a bit tired. The one I sourced from eBay was very low mileage, the freehub body and spoke holes barely had any wear. Still, after two attempts to rebuild the wheels with this new hub, the same issue as with the old one kept happening: drive-side spokes impossibly tight and straight. He is at an impasse. I've already paid for the parts and labor (the V-O rimset was comped), and currently have one fantastically well-built front wheel and no rear. With something like six attempts between two different rims and two different hubs, my mechanic has done his due diligence.

I know it's hard to diagnose over the internet, but does anybody have experience with building up this particular hub? Anything that we might be missing here? The only thing I can think of is that maybe the spacing on the axle might be off - e.g. the hub is somehow spaced too far towards the drive-side?

Anyways, I wanted to reach out to the forums before we scrap the build entirely. All insights are greatly appreciated!

beech333

double check measurements of the hub, vs the spoke lengths. spoke hole diameter and the left-right offsets. Sorry, I don't recall the correct terminology offhand.

mpetry912 

these are great hubs, about as good as they get, and I've had good luck with them.

here are the hub dimensions I've measured

WL, width from center to left flange 37.4
WR, width from center to right flange 21.4
dL, left flange diameter 48.8
dR, right flange diameter 48.8

The only other things I can think of is make sure the spokes are in fact the length that you ordered or you dont have a couple short or long spokes in the mix and

look carefully to make sure the hub flanges are not cracked.

good luck and report back

/markp

79pmooney

I've built wheels with those hubs. Nice - but - high dish 9-speed. I use right rear spokes that are 2mm shorter than all the rest (left rear and front) and at least a full gauge heavier. I build the wheel tightening the right side first, working on getting the wheel really round and just tightening the left side a touch to keep the rim straight for better roundness checks. Not until I really like the round do I start cranking in the dish with the left side spokes and dialing in side-to-side. I do my best to build the wheel so I never have to tweak a fully tight right rear spoke. (Never got there but it is clear my best wheels take very little right rear fussing once I've started pulling the rim over to the left.)

dddd

I'm sorry, but if your mechanic can't identify the dishing problem then I would look elsewhere or do it yourself.

No rocket science here.

Have you compared the two hubs for similar over-locknut dimension and for same flange-to-locknut dimension on the driveside?

If any spokes are too long then the nipple threads may bind up, easily seen as the spoke(s) protruding past the nipple heads.

Campag hubs do seem to incur more in the way of dish than comparable Shimano hubs.

Also, very thin spokes and/or any friction problems at the threads or rim-seating area can make for difficulty achieving 100kg of driveside spoke tension.
How much driveside tension is your builder trying to achieve????
Alloy nipples? (It shouldn't really matter).

One more possible issue has to do with the fit between the spoke and nipple threads.
If the spokes were perhaps shortened using a worn spoke-threading machine, then the nipples won't turn freely on the threads!!!
Sometimes a shop will put off getting their Phil spoke-threading machine serviced because it costs over $1500 to have the thread-rolling dies and other wear parts remedied.
Yes, I have dealt with the above nightmare scenario, I had to search out the loosest-fitting spoke nipples that I could find (DT aluminum in that case).

styggno1

I have built several wheels with exactly this Record hub. I have hunted them down with great perseverance as they are the only "vintage" looking hub that can be used with 9, 10 and 11 sprockets. It has the looks of a 8 speed Record hub but are compatible up to 11 speed. They have their strenghts (looks, compatibility, smooth bearings and are available in 36 hole) and weaknesess (the rear right hub bearing is prone to get shot if not regularly serviced). Later hubs are uglier and are almost impossible to get in 36 spoke. All this is reflected in the prices asked for them.

I have never had any problems building them. The dish is steep. The correct spoke length is crucial. 79pmooney: s approach above is a good one. It sounds strange that a shop builder does not get this right...

Edit - they probably are 12 compatible also but I have never been in the market for that...

79pmooney

Another "trick" although it is so well known it is hardly a trick - I grease all contacts with the spoke. Threads, nipple seats on the rim and spoke holes on the hub. I use marine grease. Enough thickness that nipples do not spin on their own but excellent under high load. I take about half a wheel worth is spokes in hand, tap them on a table to even the ends then dip the threads on a tub of grease. Roll the spokes my hand. Done. Nipple seats get done using a Q-pit tip (edit: what is a Q-pit - or do I even want to know?) from the tire side. Spoke or toothpick for the rime holes. That grease really comes into play the last few (very tight) turns of the nipple.

I am in no way a fan of anything that "sets up" or locks on my wheels. If stuff loosens while I ride, well I screwed up building a uniformly tight and even wheel.

styggno1

Over the almost 40 years I have built wheels (for personal use - but over the years - about 70-75 sets + moped and motorcycle wheels) I have never used loctite or lubrication - but I have thoroughly cleaned the nipples and spokes (ultrasonic cleaner) and then tried the spokes and nipples to each other before building. If a nipple feels tight I substitute it for another until all of them "feels" the same.

edit and PS - there is not a one right way to do this. One can come to the same result in many different ways.

repechage

There is always the Velo Orange Diagonal offset rim, it moves the center of the rim lacing toward the off drive side, (if one orients the rim correctly)
This mechanically reduces the dish.

I suspect the attempts at building with this hub was attempting to use equal length spokes for both sides, one can and did get away with that on a 120mm (5 speed) rear wheel, but a no go for 8 and or above, and I even like a 2mm difference for 126, (6 speed)

smd4

+1.

Mackers

Delete please - edited this but it got posted as a separate post instead, hope this doesn't make things worse

Mackers

Those are some wild numbers.

Just measured one and got these results;

35mm left flange to center
17mm right flange to center
44.5mm flange diameter

(2nd gen 9 speed Ti axle)

Classtime 

Possibly:
1. Spokes are the wrong length
2. NDS spokes need to be backed off.
3. Combination of 1 and 2.

smd4

How was it determined that the hub had something to do with the inability to properly dish the wheel?

heidelbergensis 

Wow - thank you everyone that has shared their knowledge here!! Hopefully, this will help anyone in the future who may also be having this issue.

dddd Wheelbuilding is the final frontier of bike-wrenching in my case! This experience might just push me over the edge to get a truing stand. Average labor costs for wheelbuilding seem to have increased significantly since I last had a wheelset built up from scratch in 2016, too.

I'm headed to the LBS after work to talk to the mechanic (who is also the proprietor). Will have to walk a fine line, as he is a really nice guy, like him a lot, but I'm not sure he will respond well to the suggestion that he may have been approaching the build wrong. And at that, I have no reason to think that he doesn't know what he's doing.

Regardless, I'll take what you've all shared here and report back!

mpetry912 

heidelbergensis what rim are you using and what is the spoke count ? 32 ?

I re-measured the loose hub I have here and came up with the following measurements

WL, width from center to left flange 37.5
WR, width from center to right flange 19.0
dL, left flange diameter 46.3
dR, right flange diameter 46.3

So Assuming the H+ Son TB14 rim with a published ERD of 610mm (Products — H PLUS SON) and 32h laced 3 cross

Plugging those numbers into SpokeCalc CD50 I get (actual spoke length ==> recommended rounding)

Drive side 296.5 => 296 mm
Left side 297.6 => 298 mm

do those numbers comport with what your builder is using ?

/markp

heidelbergensis 

Hey Mark!

It's a 32 hole hub being laced to a TB-14 rim. The previous build was with Mavic OPs, which I rode for several hundred miles without issue since purchasing the wheels secondhand.

mpetry912 

did he buy new spokes or just re-roll the ones in the wheel?

/markp

styggno1

That is a different hub than the OP has. OP hub on the right. Yours on the left. I do not know if the measurements differ.

mpetry912 

yes good catch, I see you're right. I will re-check SpokeCalc, it has numbers for those hubs.

WL, width from center to left flange 35.0
WR, width from center to right flange 17.0
dL, left flange diameter 44.5
dR, right flange diameter 44.5

for spoke lengths, 3 cross 32h to 610 ERD, I get 296 drive side and 298 left side.

which I think is the same as what I had calculated for the later hub above.

/markp

styggno1

Yes the difference is not much.

RCMoeur 

That's a lot of locknut offset. The dishing will be significant.

Agreed. Prior to lacing I learned to lightly grease the spoke threads (Phil green is great) and then I lightly rub the nipples with the remaining grease to lube the rotational areas.

(Get your mind out of the gutter!! This is serious wheelbuilding!!)

Now where were we...?

In 40+ years never had a spoke unwind or a wheel problem attributable to the use of grease. And if the wheel needs maintenance later, it's much less likely to have a frozen spoke.

Classtime 

SJX426 

Based on the initial description, it sounds like the hub is offset to the NDS. I would check that the distance from the DS flange to the inside of the DO is not too generous.

heidelbergensis 

Thank you, again, for all the input on this thread - to bring the matter to a slightly anti-climactic close, the Campy-literate mechanic at the other LBS (King Kog in Williamsburg) where I took the rear wheel said that the other mechanic didn't appear to know what we was doing. The rear wheel is currently being rebuilt and I've been comped for the initial build. The whole thing is a bit of a head-scratcher, as the guy at the first LBS is highly regarded. Maybe we are witnessing the sunsetting of artisan skills like wheelbuilding as we get further along into the era of everything being prebuilt and factory assembled? Or, that this professional skillset is just getting increasingly niche?

Anyway, my personal takeaway from this whole affair is to just finally learn how to build wheels myself... any classic resources on the subject worth recommending? Jobst Brandt?