Right hooked her. Ran over her. She's dead.
#76
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#77
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No, not sure and I do not know what NY law is. It seems logical that a moving vehicle (in this case a bicycle) has right of way in the lane that it is traveling (in this case a designated bicycle lane). This is pretty common vehicle law that a vehicle changing lanes or turning (which describes what the truck was doing) must yield to a vehicle/bicycle in that lane. The truck does not have right-of-way. For whatever reason, the truck driver did not check to ascertain if the turn and lane change was a safe move. The burden is completely on the driver of the truck to do so.
#78
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This simply is not true. Not at all. In fact, your incorrect understanding of the law and vehicle code is a problem. It's YOUR thinking that endangers cyclists. I've had many, many pedestrians step into my path ILLEGALLY and almost cause a collision. The California Vehicle Code makes it clear that pedestrians must first obey the law. They can't simply walk against a red light in a busy intersection without fault if they're hit. Hit by a car or a bicycle, it doesn't matter: the pedestrian crossing against the red is at fault.
Additionally, the VC understands that there's common sense involved too. A pedestrian, even while crossing legally in a marked crosswalk, must make his intentions known and clear to oncoming drivers. So in other words, if a pedestrian suddenly darts into a marked crosswalk without warning and you run him over in your car or on your bike, the pedestrian is at fault. It's quite simple.
Perpetuating your misinformation only makes conditions worse for cyclists. One of my college team members was taken out by a pedestrian illegally crossing against a red light. Pedestrian was unharmed, cyclist suffered broken bones. Idiots who don't cross legally are a danger to all cyclists.
Additionally, the VC understands that there's common sense involved too. A pedestrian, even while crossing legally in a marked crosswalk, must make his intentions known and clear to oncoming drivers. So in other words, if a pedestrian suddenly darts into a marked crosswalk without warning and you run him over in your car or on your bike, the pedestrian is at fault. It's quite simple.
Perpetuating your misinformation only makes conditions worse for cyclists. One of my college team members was taken out by a pedestrian illegally crossing against a red light. Pedestrian was unharmed, cyclist suffered broken bones. Idiots who don't cross legally are a danger to all cyclists.
This week on my evening ride home I had an unusual incident with a pedestrian.
I'm riding in a painted bike lane at around 16mph. It's California, dark, and I have bright lights (bar and helmet).
Ahead there's a cross walk with one of those recent upgrades to being lit up with flashing lights on demand by a pedestrian to indicate their crossing.
Okay. So far so good.
The pedex crossing is not an intersection .
I cannot see the pedestrian because of trees, wall, and rightward curving roadway (and this is the reason why there is this type of crossing, and I've ridden here for years and thinking about it, there have probably been multiple serious accidents here where formerly people would simply Jay walk).
Anyway... A young professionally dressed woman appears on the right, presses the button, and walks onto the road with hardly a glance up the street, and I am forced to make an emergency stop.
Now that's okay by me. I did what I am supposed to do and it worked. But I cannot help but think that the lit pedestrian crossing gave that woman more encouragement and a false sense of security .
I am positive she saw me coming and decided to exercise her right and made a calculation of the odds.
Of course I may be wrong in my assessment.
Is it better to live another day than be dead right?
Sometimes the things that intend to be safety enhancements provide a false sense of security.
For example, metal stairways are slippery, and we put grip tape on them to help prevent slipping, but they are still slippery.
#79
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It's all tragic.
Would bright daytime flashing lights help?
I've been using lights to help others see me. I've noticed more and more riders using them too.
Much to my disappointment I witnessed a rider the other day, in daylight with bright blinking lights, doing nothing wrong, almost get hit by a left hook.
Then the next day, a similar thing happened to me!
This left me wondering if drivers cannot really discern flashing lights for what they are intended. But I have decided that the drivers are probably distracted by devices and are only looking for cars and trucks.
Dangerous situations in urban traffic are probably increasing.
Edit to add:
On the other hand, is it possible that the drivers noticed the bicyclist because of the flashing lights and decided to encroach upon their space to give them a scare?
Would bright daytime flashing lights help?
I've been using lights to help others see me. I've noticed more and more riders using them too.
Much to my disappointment I witnessed a rider the other day, in daylight with bright blinking lights, doing nothing wrong, almost get hit by a left hook.
Then the next day, a similar thing happened to me!
This left me wondering if drivers cannot really discern flashing lights for what they are intended. But I have decided that the drivers are probably distracted by devices and are only looking for cars and trucks.
Dangerous situations in urban traffic are probably increasing.
Edit to add:
On the other hand, is it possible that the drivers noticed the bicyclist because of the flashing lights and decided to encroach upon their space to give them a scare?
Last edited by Sorcerer; 11-24-22 at 06:27 AM. Reason: Added text for clarity
#80
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Tough, we didn't used to have seatbelts either.
If the taxpayers can afford to put cameras on cops chests so we can (hopefully) hold them accountable when they murder us than we can afford simple cameras and monitors for the trucking industry.
Easy to find the $ by skimming the pay of their stinkin' CEO's.
And if it was your wife? What's a life worth? Saving a few pennies on your on-line bike parts?
If the taxpayers can afford to put cameras on cops chests so we can (hopefully) hold them accountable when they murder us than we can afford simple cameras and monitors for the trucking industry.
Easy to find the $ by skimming the pay of their stinkin' CEO's.
And if it was your wife? What's a life worth? Saving a few pennies on your on-line bike parts?
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
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#82
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you miss my point. It’s easy to look at something in hindsight and say we should mandate this or that which again in hindsight might , or might not, have prevented the particular occurrence. My point is that if you look bigger picture, you need to look at actual data, and weigh costs and benefits, not just base policy on a knee jerk reaction to a single anecdote
That's a major reason I hate this kind of thread--it usually comes down to arguing about the specifics of the anecdote as rhetorical support for people's personal policy objectives.
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#83
Miles to Go
Interesting.... I did not know that bikes are required to yield to a turning driver.
I had always assumed that I had the "right of way" when riding in the bike lane (still going to do everything I can including yielding "right of way" to not get hit, however).
I did find this when doing a Google Search:
"A motorist also has to yield to a cyclist riding in a bike lane. This means that before a motorist can cross or enter a bike lane, they have to yield to the right-of-way of a cyclist if riding in the bike lane."
This is not vehicle code, but from a CA lawyer's website.
If what you say is the case, I would really like to know. Do you have vehicle code or other source to substantiate your statement?
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Unless she had a stop sign, there is no requirement for a cyclist to yield to a turning vehicle. Its all on the driver of the truck to be aware of cyclists in the designated cycling lane and to only turn when it is clear. The truck driver did not do that clearly.
I had always assumed that I had the "right of way" when riding in the bike lane (still going to do everything I can including yielding "right of way" to not get hit, however).
I did find this when doing a Google Search:
"A motorist also has to yield to a cyclist riding in a bike lane. This means that before a motorist can cross or enter a bike lane, they have to yield to the right-of-way of a cyclist if riding in the bike lane."
This is not vehicle code, but from a CA lawyer's website.
If what you say is the case, I would really like to know. Do you have vehicle code or other source to substantiate your statement?
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Unless she had a stop sign, there is no requirement for a cyclist to yield to a turning vehicle. Its all on the driver of the truck to be aware of cyclists in the designated cycling lane and to only turn when it is clear. The truck driver did not do that clearly.
#84
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In my state of Florida a motorist must yield to a cyclist in a bike lane and turn behind the cyclist. However, there are so few cyclists that I'm sure most motorist don't even think to look. I'm always taking the lane when traffic is slow enough that a Right Hook is very possible.
A large percentage of motorist bicycle crashes occur at intersections. When making a left turn, check for and yield to bicyclists coming from the opposite direction. When making a right turn, signal your turn, check for bicyclists, and do not turn directly in front of a bicyclist. They may travel faster than you think. When a bike lane is present, signal your turn and yield to any bicyclist in the bike lane, before crossing the bike lane to enter a right turn lane. If no right turn lane is present, yield to any cyclist present in the bike lane and make your turn behind the bicyclist. Otherwise merge into the bike lane before making your turn.
6.2.2 - Bike Lanes Intersections and Driveways
At intersections, always assume that bicyclists are traveling straight unless they signal otherwise. Yield to bicycles just as you would to any other vehicle. Bicyclists often ride on sidewalks and trails, so look both ways before crossing a sidewalk or trail. A bicycle may come from an unexpected direction.A large percentage of motorist bicycle crashes occur at intersections. When making a left turn, check for and yield to bicyclists coming from the opposite direction. When making a right turn, signal your turn, check for bicyclists, and do not turn directly in front of a bicyclist. They may travel faster than you think. When a bike lane is present, signal your turn and yield to any bicyclist in the bike lane, before crossing the bike lane to enter a right turn lane. If no right turn lane is present, yield to any cyclist present in the bike lane and make your turn behind the bicyclist. Otherwise merge into the bike lane before making your turn.
#85
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This week on my evening ride home I had an unusual incident with a pedestrian.
I'm riding in a painted bike lane at around 16mph. It's California, dark, and I have bright lights (bar and helmet).
Ahead there's a cross walk with one of those recent upgrades to being lit up with flashing lights on demand by a pedestrian to indicate their crossing.
Okay. So far so good.
The pedex crossing is not an intersection .
I cannot see the pedestrian because of trees, wall, and rightward curving roadway (and this is the reason why there is this type of crossing, and I've ridden here for years and thinking about it, there have probably been multiple serious accidents here where formerly people would simply Jay walk).
Anyway... A young professionally dressed woman appears on the right, presses the button, and walks onto the road with hardly a glance up the street, and I am forced to make an emergency stop.
Now that's okay by me. I did what I am supposed to do and it worked. But I cannot help but think that the lit pedestrian crossing gave that woman more encouragement and a false sense of security .
I am positive she saw me coming and decided to exercise her right and made a calculation of the odds.
Of course I may be wrong in my assessment.
Is it better to live another day than be dead right?
Sometimes the things that intend to be safety enhancements provide a false sense of security.
For example, metal stairways are slippery, and we put grip tape on them to help prevent slipping, but they are still slippery.
I'm riding in a painted bike lane at around 16mph. It's California, dark, and I have bright lights (bar and helmet).
Ahead there's a cross walk with one of those recent upgrades to being lit up with flashing lights on demand by a pedestrian to indicate their crossing.
Okay. So far so good.
The pedex crossing is not an intersection .
I cannot see the pedestrian because of trees, wall, and rightward curving roadway (and this is the reason why there is this type of crossing, and I've ridden here for years and thinking about it, there have probably been multiple serious accidents here where formerly people would simply Jay walk).
Anyway... A young professionally dressed woman appears on the right, presses the button, and walks onto the road with hardly a glance up the street, and I am forced to make an emergency stop.
Now that's okay by me. I did what I am supposed to do and it worked. But I cannot help but think that the lit pedestrian crossing gave that woman more encouragement and a false sense of security .
I am positive she saw me coming and decided to exercise her right and made a calculation of the odds.
Of course I may be wrong in my assessment.
Is it better to live another day than be dead right?
Sometimes the things that intend to be safety enhancements provide a false sense of security.
For example, metal stairways are slippery, and we put grip tape on them to help prevent slipping, but they are still slippery.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
#86
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Interesting.... I did not know that bikes are required to yield to a turning driver.
I had always assumed that I had the "right of way" when riding in the bike lane (still going to do everything I can including yielding "right of way" to not get hit, however).
I did find this when doing a Google Search:
"A motorist also has to yield to a cyclist riding in a bike lane. This means that before a motorist can cross or enter a bike lane, they have to yield to the right-of-way of a cyclist if riding in the bike lane."
This is not vehicle code, but from a CA lawyer's website.
If what you say is the case, I would really like to know. Do you have vehicle code or other source to substantiate your statement?
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Unless she had a stop sign, there is no requirement for a cyclist to yield to a turning vehicle.
I had always assumed that I had the "right of way" when riding in the bike lane (still going to do everything I can including yielding "right of way" to not get hit, however).
I did find this when doing a Google Search:
"A motorist also has to yield to a cyclist riding in a bike lane. This means that before a motorist can cross or enter a bike lane, they have to yield to the right-of-way of a cyclist if riding in the bike lane."
This is not vehicle code, but from a CA lawyer's website.
If what you say is the case, I would really like to know. Do you have vehicle code or other source to substantiate your statement?
Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Unless she had a stop sign, there is no requirement for a cyclist to yield to a turning vehicle.
Taking out of context. Again. If a vehicle is already initiating a turn, has already started around the corner and a bicycle enters the swing//strike zone after and gets hit, it's the bicyclist's fault.
When you change lanes in your car, you turn on your blinker, check twice and change lanes. If someone pulls behind you at a high rate (supra legal) of speed and you hit them because you reasonably could not have predicted that their speed was that much higher than yours. Would that be your fault?
So if someone is turning and some bicyclist effectively rides into the side of them, how's that their fault?
You cannot require right of way to be by predicting that a bicycle may come along right now in a moment. I can't see one but hey I'll just wait here.
The bicyclist, seeing that a vehicle is turning in it's path has to allow for it to maneuver.
Just because you are on a bicycle you do not have any rights above a car's. You can get away with more and it seems that's what you want codified.
BTW, there is a lawyer made every second, they all want your money. They'll say whatever they have to, to get it.
#87
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Truck right hooks are all too common, and nothing that follows is intended to excuse negligent drivers in any way.
HOWEVER
We need to operate on two planes. There's the advocacy standpoint where we should focus on things like road design, driver education, and laws to punish negligent drivers. Then there's the self-preservation aspect where we should focus on what riders can and should do to stay safe.
I'm more interested in the second because I place a higher priority on things I can control, meaning mostly things I can do to be safe in an inherently dangerous world.
As cyclists we need to be mindful, and help educate our peers, to hazards involving trucks, especially tractor trailers. These include things like sight lines, high bodies, and the smaller arc tracked by the rear axle. Many (though not necessarily this one) truck right hooks happen because cyclists start passing trucks on the right as they're stopped or slowing at intersections. This is extremely risky and should be avoided unless you are 100% sure you can completely pass or at least get equal to the front axle and driver's right window sightline before the truck will move.
Starting a right side pass while the truck is slowing or stopped leaves you vulnerable to being trapped in the "kill zone" between the front and rear axles when the truck begins a right turn. I call it the kill zone because the rider will be hit by the truck body, and knocked to the ground where the rear wheels can roll over him/her.
Of course, it's not always a cyclist passing that's the issue. Often a truck will start passing as it approaches the intersection, even if planning a turn. Here too, even when not at fault, the cyclist can and must take defensive action by slowing and allowing the truck to pass completely before the cyclist enters the area where he/she might be right hooked.
Again, I'm not excusing drivers, nor arguing about advocacy, just reminding my fellow cyclists that they'll face multiple opportunities to manage their own safety long before any good can come from changes in laws, road design, or driver habits.
HOWEVER
We need to operate on two planes. There's the advocacy standpoint where we should focus on things like road design, driver education, and laws to punish negligent drivers. Then there's the self-preservation aspect where we should focus on what riders can and should do to stay safe.
I'm more interested in the second because I place a higher priority on things I can control, meaning mostly things I can do to be safe in an inherently dangerous world.
As cyclists we need to be mindful, and help educate our peers, to hazards involving trucks, especially tractor trailers. These include things like sight lines, high bodies, and the smaller arc tracked by the rear axle. Many (though not necessarily this one) truck right hooks happen because cyclists start passing trucks on the right as they're stopped or slowing at intersections. This is extremely risky and should be avoided unless you are 100% sure you can completely pass or at least get equal to the front axle and driver's right window sightline before the truck will move.
Starting a right side pass while the truck is slowing or stopped leaves you vulnerable to being trapped in the "kill zone" between the front and rear axles when the truck begins a right turn. I call it the kill zone because the rider will be hit by the truck body, and knocked to the ground where the rear wheels can roll over him/her.
Of course, it's not always a cyclist passing that's the issue. Often a truck will start passing as it approaches the intersection, even if planning a turn. Here too, even when not at fault, the cyclist can and must take defensive action by slowing and allowing the truck to pass completely before the cyclist enters the area where he/she might be right hooked.
Again, I'm not excusing drivers, nor arguing about advocacy, just reminding my fellow cyclists that they'll face multiple opportunities to manage their own safety long before any good can come from changes in laws, road design, or driver habits.
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Chain-L site
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Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
FB
Chain-L site
An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
“One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions” - Adm Grace Murray Hopper - USN
WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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#88
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But this would take introspection, no denial, and willingness to take responsibility for ones own actions, choices, and risk taking in life. All qualities I find in short supply at A&S.
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By the same token, any suggestion that cyclists can manage their own safety on our "poorly designed infrastructure" implies opposition to improving it.
Last edited by FBinNY; 12-04-22 at 11:45 PM.
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#90
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Some of you should not be riding bikes, you're a danger to yourselves!
Of course a car is suppose to by law if turning right yield to a bike, but the problem with that is some of you think that right is yours to take and screw whatever the car want's do, and you will be legally right to do so, but you will also be declared legally dead, is that the what you want to be? legally right but legally dead?
Humble yourselves and yield to cars in the wrong, you'll live a lot longer.
Never pull alongside a car when you are approaching an intersection or a driveway, stay behind them enough so you can stop comfortably if they do turn, I usually take the lane in those situations, so I ride like I'm in a car, behind the car in front of me, and in front of the car in front of me, that way I don't have someone trying to beat me to intersection so they can cut me off to make their turn. Keep your ears open, because the sound of a car engine behind you can tell you a lot, if they suddenly accelerate as your approaching an intersection, it's good bet they intend to race you to the intersection so they can turn in front of you. Are they in the wrong for doing that, yup, big time because it's intentional, but again yield to them anyways so you don't get killed.
One poster mentioned using flashing lights during the day, yes, by all means you should be using a very bright strobe light on the front, and a very bright flashing taillight; while that is good and safe practice to do, the ultimate safety of you is you using your brain, just because you have 10 million lumen lights flashing all around you won't guarantee you your safety, you have to use your head.
I've been riding bikes on city surface streets for over 40 years, while the cycling infrastructure is not that good in the US, and especially back 40 years ago, I still got around safely, in fact most of us did, I had quiet a few close calls, and a few accidents early on riding around Los Angeles, and thankfully survived those, but I also used them as a teaching tool and learned by them. Sometimes things happen that are completely out of your hands, I understand that, but you can eliminate probably 98% of all accidents that occur if you use your head all the time when out on the road, and that means do not use your cell phone for either yakking on or for listening to music, you have to have you head 100% on your riding. I have a bit of an advantage over most of you because I use to race cars, and that knowledge does help quite a bit believe it or not, but if you keep your head in the game you'll come out a lot further ahead...no pun intended. There were videos posted that if you watch them you can learn from someone else's mistakes, you can also find other videos on line that you can also watch and see if there is anything to learn from those.
I have a few more videos for you all to watch, and a website to read, this stuff is so that you understand what is going on with other drivers, as well as a safety site to help you all to ride more carefully and safely; I'm not saying I'm the best rider in world by showing you guys this stuff, all I want to saying is that I want to hopefully in some small way to help someone not to die on this forum.
There are 2 very good videos here, but note, in the first video they add a convex mirror to the truck and then the driver can see a roll of cyclists next to his truck, what the article failed to tell people is that you must NEVER assume the driver can see you, even if you can see him, it doesn't mean he's paying enough attention to see you, so ride like they can't see you at all. https://cyclingsavvy.org/what-cyclis...-about-trucks/
https://bicyclesafe.com/
Of course a car is suppose to by law if turning right yield to a bike, but the problem with that is some of you think that right is yours to take and screw whatever the car want's do, and you will be legally right to do so, but you will also be declared legally dead, is that the what you want to be? legally right but legally dead?
Humble yourselves and yield to cars in the wrong, you'll live a lot longer.
Never pull alongside a car when you are approaching an intersection or a driveway, stay behind them enough so you can stop comfortably if they do turn, I usually take the lane in those situations, so I ride like I'm in a car, behind the car in front of me, and in front of the car in front of me, that way I don't have someone trying to beat me to intersection so they can cut me off to make their turn. Keep your ears open, because the sound of a car engine behind you can tell you a lot, if they suddenly accelerate as your approaching an intersection, it's good bet they intend to race you to the intersection so they can turn in front of you. Are they in the wrong for doing that, yup, big time because it's intentional, but again yield to them anyways so you don't get killed.
One poster mentioned using flashing lights during the day, yes, by all means you should be using a very bright strobe light on the front, and a very bright flashing taillight; while that is good and safe practice to do, the ultimate safety of you is you using your brain, just because you have 10 million lumen lights flashing all around you won't guarantee you your safety, you have to use your head.
I've been riding bikes on city surface streets for over 40 years, while the cycling infrastructure is not that good in the US, and especially back 40 years ago, I still got around safely, in fact most of us did, I had quiet a few close calls, and a few accidents early on riding around Los Angeles, and thankfully survived those, but I also used them as a teaching tool and learned by them. Sometimes things happen that are completely out of your hands, I understand that, but you can eliminate probably 98% of all accidents that occur if you use your head all the time when out on the road, and that means do not use your cell phone for either yakking on or for listening to music, you have to have you head 100% on your riding. I have a bit of an advantage over most of you because I use to race cars, and that knowledge does help quite a bit believe it or not, but if you keep your head in the game you'll come out a lot further ahead...no pun intended. There were videos posted that if you watch them you can learn from someone else's mistakes, you can also find other videos on line that you can also watch and see if there is anything to learn from those.
I have a few more videos for you all to watch, and a website to read, this stuff is so that you understand what is going on with other drivers, as well as a safety site to help you all to ride more carefully and safely; I'm not saying I'm the best rider in world by showing you guys this stuff, all I want to saying is that I want to hopefully in some small way to help someone not to die on this forum.
There are 2 very good videos here, but note, in the first video they add a convex mirror to the truck and then the driver can see a roll of cyclists next to his truck, what the article failed to tell people is that you must NEVER assume the driver can see you, even if you can see him, it doesn't mean he's paying enough attention to see you, so ride like they can't see you at all. https://cyclingsavvy.org/what-cyclis...-about-trucks/
https://bicyclesafe.com/
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About all we can do:
- Don't pass another where there's very little room for error or very little space/time before possible contact.
- Don't get into the "death" zone, with other vehicles, where the most unlikely thing could easily be attempted at the worst possible moment.
- Assume the other guy doesn't see you, and drive/ride accordingly.
- Always be looking for "outs," 'cause they might well be necessary at the drop of a hat.
#92
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It's sometimes frustrating (for lack of a better word) that A&S lumps these together.
While there's definitely overlap, they are different concepts. As road users we can advocate for making things better and safer. But ultimately, we have to take personal responsibility for our own safety.
So there are two different perspectives, and while they're not mutually exclusive, lumping them together leads to pointless debates. If it were my choice, I'd split these into 2 forums. One for things related to advocacy. And one focused on discussing safety issues from the perspective of what cyclists can do to keep themselves safe.
Keep in mind that even in a perfect world, we will always encounter situations where our safety depends on our decisions. It's not about rights, it's about practical realities.
Ride smart and stay safe.
While there's definitely overlap, they are different concepts. As road users we can advocate for making things better and safer. But ultimately, we have to take personal responsibility for our own safety.
So there are two different perspectives, and while they're not mutually exclusive, lumping them together leads to pointless debates. If it were my choice, I'd split these into 2 forums. One for things related to advocacy. And one focused on discussing safety issues from the perspective of what cyclists can do to keep themselves safe.
Keep in mind that even in a perfect world, we will always encounter situations where our safety depends on our decisions. It's not about rights, it's about practical realities.
Ride smart and stay safe.
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Truck right hooks are all too common, and nothing that follows is intended to excuse negligent drivers in any way.
HOWEVER
We need to operate on two planes. There's the advocacy standpoint where we should focus on things like road design, driver education, and laws to punish negligent drivers. Then there's the self-preservation aspect where we should focus on what riders can and should do to stay safe.
I'm more interested in the second because I place a higher priority on things I can control, meaning mostly things I can do to be safe in an inherently dangerous world.
As cyclists we need to be mindful, and help educate our peers, to hazards involving trucks, especially tractor trailers. These include things like sight lines, high bodies, and the smaller arc tracked by the rear axle. Many (though not necessarily this one) truck right hooks happen because cyclists start passing trucks on the right as they're stopped or slowing at intersections. This is extremely risky and should be avoided unless you are 100% sure you can completely pass or at least get equal to the front axle and driver's right window sightline before the truck will move.
Starting a right side pass while the truck is slowing or stopped leaves you vulnerable to being trapped in the "kill zone" between the front and rear axles when the truck begins a right turn. I call it the kill zone because the rider will be hit by the truck body, and knocked to the ground where the rear wheels can roll over him/her.
Of course, it's not always a cyclist passing that's the issue. Often a truck will start passing as it approaches the intersection, even if planning a turn. Here too, even when not at fault, the cyclist can and must take defensive action by slowing and allowing the truck to pass completely before the cyclist enters the area where he/she might be right hooked.
Again, I'm not excusing drivers, nor arguing about advocacy, just reminding my fellow cyclists that they'll face multiple opportunities to manage their own safety long before any good can come from changes in laws, road design, or driver habits.
HOWEVER
We need to operate on two planes. There's the advocacy standpoint where we should focus on things like road design, driver education, and laws to punish negligent drivers. Then there's the self-preservation aspect where we should focus on what riders can and should do to stay safe.
I'm more interested in the second because I place a higher priority on things I can control, meaning mostly things I can do to be safe in an inherently dangerous world.
As cyclists we need to be mindful, and help educate our peers, to hazards involving trucks, especially tractor trailers. These include things like sight lines, high bodies, and the smaller arc tracked by the rear axle. Many (though not necessarily this one) truck right hooks happen because cyclists start passing trucks on the right as they're stopped or slowing at intersections. This is extremely risky and should be avoided unless you are 100% sure you can completely pass or at least get equal to the front axle and driver's right window sightline before the truck will move.
Starting a right side pass while the truck is slowing or stopped leaves you vulnerable to being trapped in the "kill zone" between the front and rear axles when the truck begins a right turn. I call it the kill zone because the rider will be hit by the truck body, and knocked to the ground where the rear wheels can roll over him/her.
Of course, it's not always a cyclist passing that's the issue. Often a truck will start passing as it approaches the intersection, even if planning a turn. Here too, even when not at fault, the cyclist can and must take defensive action by slowing and allowing the truck to pass completely before the cyclist enters the area where he/she might be right hooked.
Again, I'm not excusing drivers, nor arguing about advocacy, just reminding my fellow cyclists that they'll face multiple opportunities to manage their own safety long before any good can come from changes in laws, road design, or driver habits.
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Some of you should not be riding bikes, you're a danger to yourselves!
Of course a car is suppose to by law if turning right yield to a bike, but the problem with that is some of you think that right is yours to take and screw whatever the car want's do, and you will be legally right to do so, but you will also be declared legally dead, is that the what you want to be? legally right but legally dead?
Humble yourselves and yield to cars in the wrong, you'll live a lot longer./
Of course a car is suppose to by law if turning right yield to a bike, but the problem with that is some of you think that right is yours to take and screw whatever the car want's do, and you will be legally right to do so, but you will also be declared legally dead, is that the what you want to be? legally right but legally dead?
Humble yourselves and yield to cars in the wrong, you'll live a lot longer./
And yes, being too timid can get you killed, as well. Indecision can make you either invisible or completely unpredictable.
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In dense urban areas, I'll often find myself waiting abreast of a truck at a corner. I shout "Yo, don't turn right", and get a laugh when they respond, "I wasn't going to".
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Yes, there are alternate approaches that work. I'll adjust what I do according to the specific situation.
In dense urban areas, I'll often find myself waiting abreast of a truck at a corner. I shout "Yo, don't turn right", and get a laugh when they respond, "I wasn't going to".
In dense urban areas, I'll often find myself waiting abreast of a truck at a corner. I shout "Yo, don't turn right", and get a laugh when they respond, "I wasn't going to".
TBH, I don't know how I'd handle the situation in NY with its laws requiring staying in the bike lane, etc. that largely force you to the right of traffic at intersections. I do most of my riding in NH and MA. MA doesn't have a FRAP law at all, and neither state makes bike lanes mandatory.
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NYC instructed bicyclists to keep LEFT on Manhattan's one way avenues, which was surprisingly enlightened. Keeping left meant no bus leap frog, better sightlines and clearance calculations for drivers and greatly reduced risk of dooring, since only a small percentage of cars have passengers.
Contrary to outsider's assumptions riding in NYC's dense traffic was reasonably safe because speeds were better matched, and NYC drivers operate at very levels of awareness.
When NYC added the b bike lanes on one way avenues they placed them on the left, following the earlier logic. While I'm not a fan, it seems to work because left turning drivers have better sight lines, so left hooks aren't as common. Also note that most intersections have many pedestrians, so drivers get smarter pretty quickly.
On the personal note, I've never been a fan of bike lanes and actually preferred shared roadways. These days, when I ride in NYC I avoid avenues with bike lanes, so I don't risk dealing with overzealous cops enforcing stupid laws.
Last edited by FBinNY; 12-07-22 at 03:25 PM.
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I lived in Manhattan for 10÷ years using my bike as my main transport. Back then, in the late sixties, there were no bike lanes.
NYC instructed bicyclists to keep LEFT on Manhattan's one way avenues, which was surprisingly enlightened. Keeping left meant no bus leap frog, better sightlines and clearance calculations.for drives, and greatly reduced risk of dooring.
Contrary to outsider's assumptions riding in NYC's dense traffic was reasonably safe because speeds were better matched, and NYC drivers operate at very levels of awareness.
When NYC added the b bike lanes on one way avenues they placed them on the left, following the earlier logic. While I'm not a fan, it seems to work because left turning drivers have better sight lines, so left hooks aren't as common. Also note that most intersections have many pedestrians, so drivers get smarter pretty quickly.
On the personal note, I've never been a fan of bike lanes and actually preferred shared roadways. When I ride in NYC I avoid avenues with bike lanes, so I don't risk dealing with overzealous cops enforcing stupid laws.
NYC instructed bicyclists to keep LEFT on Manhattan's one way avenues, which was surprisingly enlightened. Keeping left meant no bus leap frog, better sightlines and clearance calculations.for drives, and greatly reduced risk of dooring.
Contrary to outsider's assumptions riding in NYC's dense traffic was reasonably safe because speeds were better matched, and NYC drivers operate at very levels of awareness.
When NYC added the b bike lanes on one way avenues they placed them on the left, following the earlier logic. While I'm not a fan, it seems to work because left turning drivers have better sight lines, so left hooks aren't as common. Also note that most intersections have many pedestrians, so drivers get smarter pretty quickly.
On the personal note, I've never been a fan of bike lanes and actually preferred shared roadways. When I ride in NYC I avoid avenues with bike lanes, so I don't risk dealing with overzealous cops enforcing stupid laws.
Can you tell I've never ridden in NYC? LOL
Do other cities in NY state follow this lane placement?
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Some, but I've no idea whether it's common.
Where I live in the burbs, there are some politically correct painted bike lanes, but they're ill conceived and pointless. There aren't many broad one ways, but I know of at least one, and it's divided bike lane is on the left.
As for the rest of the state, I don't know and have no reason to care.
Where I live in the burbs, there are some politically correct painted bike lanes, but they're ill conceived and pointless. There aren't many broad one ways, but I know of at least one, and it's divided bike lane is on the left.
As for the rest of the state, I don't know and have no reason to care.
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An ounce of diagnosis is worth a pound of cure.
Just because I'm tired of arguing, doesn't mean you're right.
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WARNING, I'm from New York. Thin skinned people should maintain safe distance.
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