dglevy

Hi all, I'm thinking about about buying a used racing bike--right size, good components, integrated power meter, deep dish wheels--all perfect for training and racing. The thing is I'm a clincher tires guy and the bike has tubeless Enve 5.6 wheels. The seller assures me that these wheels can take clincher tires but threads I've seen here seem to indicate that there can be lots of problems installing/removing tires on a tubeless wheel--I'm not sure if the problem is trying to put clinchers on a tubeless wheel or if it's putting *any* tire on a tubeless wheel. I'm happy riding clinchers--I'm only 145 lbs, never get pinch flats, rarely get any flats at all--but this bike has everything I need, the only problem is the tubeless wheels. If you have experience in this area, but let me know what you think about this potential purchase. I want the bike but I DON'T want any more hassles than I already have with bicycle maintenance!...

Seattle Forrest

If the rims are hookless you can use tubes but must use TL tires. I assume the current 5.6 are hookless, but the ones on the bike you're looking at might be a few years old?

My vote: buy the bike!

WhyFi

I only did a quick search, but from what I see, the 5.6 are "tubeless optimized" (not sure what they mean by that) but compatible with regular clinchers. Almost all recent, decent wheels are going to have similar, tubeless-ready rim profiles.

Iride01 

Do you ever have issues installing new tires on your current rims? If not you will probably not have any big issues with a tubed tire on a tubeless rim.

If you do have issues, then you probably aren't doing something right.

How often do you have to change a tire?

smashndash

It seems that you're asking about installation difficulty. As a rule, tubeless tires are harder to install than tubed tires (and yet people manage). But there's variance between brands, models, units and even over time for the same tire.

Some tires are harder than others to install, but like someone above said, most tubed tires will not be that bad.

Racing Dan

You should be fine, except ENVE advices against cotton casing tyres.

"Smart ENVE System (SES) Tire CompatibilityModels: SES 2.2, SES 3.4, SES 5.6, SES 7.8, SES Disc Wheel

Tubeless Rim Type: Hooked-Bead
Inner-Tube Compatible: Yes
Inner Rim Width Dimension: 18-20.5mm
Aero Optimized Tire Size Recommendation: 25mm
Tire Size Range Compatibility: 23mm to 32mm
Rim’s Maximum Tire Pressure: 120psi

There are no limitations on tire compatibility with these wheel models. Your ENVE SES wheels may be set up and run with inner-tubes and non-tubeless tires or tubeless (TL) and tubeless ready (TLR) tires alike. We recommend the use of a Tubeless (TL) or Tubeless Ready (TLR) 700x25c tire set up tubeless to maximize aerodynamics, rolling resistance, crosswind stability, and your ride experience.

Non-Tubeless Setup (i.e. I want to run inner-tubes) – Each ENVE SES wheelset is delivered with one roll of RED, model specific, ENVE tested and approved tubeless rim tape. This tape should be installed regardless of whether you intend to run your wheels tubeless or not. Do not run cloth or plastic (including ENVE) non-tubeless compatible rim tape or strips. Plastic rim strips and cloth tapes are too thick, bridge the drop-center rim channel, and will make installation and removal of tires extremely difficult. Click here for our tubeless tape installation video.

Cotton and/or Natural Fiber Sidewall Tires – ENVE does NOT RECOMMEND the use of cotton or natural fiber sidewall non-tubeless tires with ENVE SES wheelsets for everyday use. These tires are intended for high-performance racing applications only. If you choose to run these tires, please inspect your tires after each ride for cuts, tears, and any signs of abrasion and/or wear in the sidewall and at the location of the rim/tire interface. If any wear and/or damage is identified, replace before riding. Riders who choose to run tires with cotton or natural fiber sidewalls do so at their own risk."

himespau 

I ride with tubed wheels, but I'm old school and those are all the rims I've been familiar with when I've built up the wheels I'm using. Honestly though, it if came with tubeless already set up, I'd just ride it with those until I needed to replace the tires (or until there were problems). Then I'd decided if I'd liked it enough to spend the extra $20 or so each on tubeless tires and keep going that way or spend $20 on a tube and a spare for each wheel to go with the ~$20 cheaper tube-requiring tires. Especially if they're hooked rims like these that can easily take a hooked tire.

Oh and buy yourself a couple sets of really nice tire levers and a couple Kool-Stop tire jacks. One for your took kit at home and one for your saddlebag. Some tire/rim combos you can do barehanded, most you can do with the VAR tire jack that's a lot smaller/easier to fit into your saddlebag, but absolutely all tire/rim combos that it's possible to match will work with the Kool-Stop jack. Heavier/requires a bigger bag, but, if you're worried about getting your tires back on the wheel, this will give you the confidence to know you'll never be stranded on the side of the road.

dglevy

The seller says he bought the wheels in early 2020. The Enve website on the current ones says they can be hooked bead or hookless. I assume they are hooked bead, since the seller says they are compatible with clinchers, but I'll make extra sure about that.
Yes, Enve calls them "tubeless optimized", whatever that means. They have a 'tire compatibility' page that implies, for Enve SES 5.6, a "non-tubeless setup" is acceptable. The only caveat they specify is that one must use Enve's rim tape, not any other. No comment about how hard or easy to put a clincher tire on--but that's no surprise since they wouldn't tell you if it was hard to do...
I sometimes have trouble getting the tire on without pinching the tube, but I think that's normal for clinchers and all depends on the the variation in wheel and tire tolerances. Do you mean 'change a tire' or 'change a tube'? I change the rear tire about once every 5,000 miles or so (Continental GP5000)--the front, less often. I get a flat about 2-3 times a year. Like I said, I only weigh 145 lbs, and I stay out of the road grit. That's why I really don't want to deal with a tubeless setup, I'm perfectly happy with my current tire setup, but I need a faster, stiff bike with stiff deep dish wheels and a power meter, which this one has!...

So, what do y'all think? I've read in these forums about people struggling to install and remove tires on tubeless rims. Could it happen with these?

dglevy

Yes, thanks for digging into it for me. I saw those warnings about the cotton casing, that's not a problem.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to remove the tires right away because I doubt the seller has bothered to do it in a long while. The wheels only have 1,000 miles on them and the sealant has probably dried out.

Regarding my current setup, I don't have problems. My concern is that the "tubeless optimized" rims might be harder to work with, and I don't want any more hassles than I already have with maintaining my 3 bikes!...

WhyFi

I alluded to it in my post, but I'll be more explicit - almost every good, current wheelset is going to be tubeless compatible (or have a tubeless rim profile, in the case of a couple of Specialized offerings), so you're not likely to dodge any difficulty inherent to tubeless rim profiles (if there is such a thing) by going with something else. If the bike ticks all the boxes, these wheels shouldn't stop you.

Iride01 

I just wouldn't let the wheels on the bike nix the purchase if you like the bike and don't have any other contenders. If you don't flat often and go 5000 miles between tire changes then you'll be fine. If they are tougher to install, you'll just simply get better over a few times of changing them and they'll eventually be easy for you.

I wouldn't even be in a hurry to change them from tubeless tires. You might even find you like tubeless tires.

I haven't had to use a lever on a tire for many years. Not even to remove them. Yet I hear people griping that they can't seat the same tires on their rims even with a lever. Mine aren't tubeless rims though, but certainly I won't fear changing tires on them if I ever have too.

datlas 

Just get the bike. If you end up having too many hassles with the wheels, sell them on ScamBay and get another set you prefer.

p.s. please call them "deep section" wheels, as wheel dish refers to offset for the rear wheel. #Pedantry

dglevy

Thanks for everyone's input! Unfortunately, there's been a glitch: even though he originally said "they can take a tube like any other clincher", now he's saying in response to my question about hooked bead or hookless, "Enve SES 5.6 (which I believe are hookless). I wouldn’t recommend running them with tubes, but I carry a tube in case I flat and the sealant doesn’t plug it." So, needless to say, this is very frustrating... I've written a frank response to him listing the reasons for my reluctance to switch to a permanent tubeless setup; hopefully he will offer a discount to make the sale. I think that's the only thing that would persuade me to switch. I'll give y'all an update once it's decided one way or the other. Thanks again everyone, for helping me out! I'm sorry I took up people's time due to the bad information that was given to me...

WhyFi

I mean, if you can get a discount, cool, but I haven't seen any indication that there's a 5.6 iteration that's hookless. I think that the seller just doesn't know what he's talking about.

And, FYI, even hookless rims don't need to be run tubeless. They need to be paired with tubeless tires, but you can pop a tube in them if you really want to (not that I would).

dglevy

You're absolutely right--thanks so much for posting! I just checked Enve's tire compatibility table and the 5.6 is not listed under 'hookless'. Well I'll be goddamned! This story has more plot twists than a dime store novel...

alcjphil

You don't have to remove tires to add sealant. Just remove the valve core and inject sealant through the open valve stem. Much less hassle than changing an inner tube. I have been riding road tubeless for about 12 years and in all that time I have only once had to repair a puncture out on the road for my own bike. I have helped other people who had tubeless flats install an inner tube out on the road. Takes about the same time as replacing an inner tube on regular clincher wheels.

dglevy

Well, that's encouraging to hear a strong endorsement. Mostly what I've heard thus far is people having problems with tubeless, but I suppose that's because people who have no problems also have no need to post on BF and tell the story... Nevertheless, I saw one thread where someone said one must remove the tires once a year to make sure they do not become sort of glued to the rim and very hard to remove, subsequently.

Polaris OBark

Almost all higher-quality modern wheels are tubeless-ready, and most have carbon rims that are hookless. All this means is that you must use tires that are compatible, i.e., that are tubeless-ready. It doesn't mean that you can't stick tubes in them if you would rather do so. It just means that you have to use tires that are sized carefully so that they won't blow off the rim (which is also less of a potential problem if you run tubes).

Those tires will, by necessity, be a tight fit.

alcjphil

I never have had to do that. I install my tires, inflate to seat them, then deflate and add sealant through the valve, and then ride them until they wear out

dglevy

Thanks to both of you for your comments. I have taken note for the future when I will be dragged kicking and screaming into the world of tubeless--or tubeless ready--wheels...

Just an update: While it has turned out that the wheels are not a deal breaker, I have decided to not purchase this bike. It had all that I needed--good quality Ultegra groupo and deep section wheels, power meter, etc.--but it is a 2016 Pinarello GAN, and the bike is heavy. This bike would probably weigh in (with pedals and bottle cages) at 18 1/2 or 19 lbs whereas my current bike, a 2007 Giant TCR, is 18 lbs. To my mind, a heavier bike is hardly an upgrade...

Thanks to everyone who posted thoughtful and well-informed comments--HUGELY helpful!

sfrider 

Personally I couldn't see going through the hassle of mounting and unmounting tubeless tires every time I need to swap a tube. The whole point of tubeless tires is so you don't get flats, and the mounting of them is a one-time task you do every 2000-3000 miles or whatever. Using tubes brings you the worst of both! Once you have tubeless wheels with tubeless tires, forget about tubes and use sealant... Seriously.

dglevy

Yeah, that sounds like quite a hassle, treating a tubeless tire like a clincher tire. Thanks for your input. But I'm getting a lot of conflicting information about people's experience with tubeless. For the moment, at least, I don't have to make a decision. However, when push comes to shove, I have this tremendous resource at hand called bikeforums.net: I'm sure there are tons of discussions on the question of tubeless vs. clincher, and I will be reading them--and starting a new thread, no doubt!