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At what point does road rage become assault

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At what point does road rage become assault

Old 07-18-21, 09:22 AM
  #51  
work4bike
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
We aren't trying to be professionals (though we do have a former olympian on the ride) we are just trying to race our bikes man. We only pull that on the fast days. Also check this out its radical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyklZrZYFT4&t=1812s

these guys are way crazier than us, we try to be on our best behavior and stop at stop signs M/W/F
People that do that type of riding (whether they're racing or not) are idiots. They stupidly think that it's ok, because they're just risking their own lives, but they're not.

I have zero problems with people risking their own lives and sometimes I even have respect for what they do; however, when someone operates in a way that risks the lives of others -- zero respect and they must be called out.

Cyclists that run stop lights/signs and do other unforeseen things can cause others to brake/swerve in a manner to cause an accident just so they can miss the idiot on a bike. I don't run lights, not because I'm afraid of getting hit, rather, I'm afraid of causing an accident.

The only good thing in all these cyclists doing stupid things, is that usually they suffer the consequences.



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Old 07-18-21, 10:24 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
Today on the group ride an insane driver laid on the horn for a full minute, terrifying the group. Would you consider this to be assault.
Not an assault, unless the driver made a physical contact....Honking and throwing F bombs is just noise and isn't an assault.
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Old 07-18-21, 11:37 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
People that do that type of riding (whether they're racing or not) are idiots. They stupidly think that it's ok, because they're just risking their own lives, but they're not.

I have zero problems with people risking their own lives and sometimes I even have respect for what they do; however, when someone operates in a way that risks the lives of others -- zero respect and they must be called out.

Cyclists that run stop lights/signs and do other unforeseen things can cause others to brake/swerve in a manner to cause an accident just so they can miss the idiot on a bike. I don't run lights, not because I'm afraid of getting hit, rather, I'm afraid of causing an accident.

The only good thing in all these cyclists doing stupid things, is that usually they suffer the consequences.



.
The people that do that sort of riding are able to do what they do because they safely weave through traffic without causing nuisance on a daily basis, but they aren't nearly that aggressive normally. That was a race that people came from out of town/country to race in, they were doing crazy things near the end. They are gears in society, lower class food couriers and messengers, their livelihood depends on safely getting from point A to point B ASAP to deliver stuff for the higher class. Be sympathetic about the traffic laws they break. I'm assuming youre talking about that crazy video I linked not my group

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Old 07-18-21, 12:43 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
They are gears in society, lower class food couriers and messengers, their livelihood depends on safely getting from point A to point B ASAP to deliver stuff for the higher class. Be sympathetic about the traffic laws they break.
Right problem, wrong answer.

Waiving traffic laws isn't the solution, minimum hourly or at least distance + urban surcharge + weather surcharge wage that's livable while riding legally, without putting others cyclists and pedestrians at risk by salmoning, etc is.

And yes, that will probably raise delivery food prices. Beyond the meals-on-wheels situation where individual courier on demand is unsustainably inefficient anyway, it would be good for public health if people thought twice about ordering takeout or at least had an economic incentive to get out of their lay-z-boy and fetch it with their own two feet or wheels.
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I worked in an office where we had a great system: we'd often order from a local fairly healthy lunch place, and whoever felt like walking a few blocks to get a break from inside would ask if anyone else stuck on task had an order that needed picking up. Does that apply everywhere? Nope, but it does apply in the places where urban assault tactical delivery is a thing.
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Old 07-18-21, 01:05 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
We aren't trying to be professionals (though we do have a former olympian on the ride) we are just trying to race our bikes man. We only pull that on the fast days. Also check this out its radical https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyklZrZYFT4&t=1812s

these guys are way crazier than us, we try to be on our best behavior and stop at stop signs M/W/F
These guys have earned their Cat 6 upgrade although some of them might expire before getting it in the mail.
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Old 07-18-21, 10:46 PM
  #56  
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You posted

Your going to get several opinions here when you post ..
so here's mine . You were impeding traffic, blocking the street . You began the aggression.
I did some club rriding in my youth . The rule was single file . I think the most riders was 20 or so , usually less.. We would take turns at the front , drop back. The guy in back would call CAR BACK , that meant you hold your position , you stay single file !!! You don't drop back till you hear CLEAR . Simple rules and courtesy work .. That's my take .

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Old 07-19-21, 06:09 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Not an assault, unless the driver made a physical contact....Honking and throwing F bombs is just noise and isn't an assault.
Depends on the jurisdiction. One can assault another without making physical contact. Battery is physical contact. Again, it all depends on the law of the jurisdiction.
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Old 07-19-21, 07:15 PM
  #58  
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Most of the groups in my area are 20 - 30 riders, but they swell to 50 on occasion. They take the entire lane and there's no reason not to. You would still be unable to pass them if they were single file. In the few spots where you can pass, having them single file would make them stretch out too far. I've gotten stuck behind groups for three or four miles. Really only adds a couple of minutes to travel time.

They aren't obstructing traffic, they are traffic. Auto drivers just need to grin and bear it. I ride the same roads solo. The groups probably help in that regard. Makes drivers appreciate a solo rider.

Last edited by jon c.; 07-19-21 at 08:57 PM.
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Old 07-19-21, 07:43 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by jon c. View Post
Most of the groups in my area are 20 - 30 riders, but they swell to 50 on occasion. They take the entire lane and there's no reason not to. You would still be unable to pass them if they were single file. In the few spots where you can pass, having them single file would make the stretch out too far. I've gotten stuck behind groups for three or four miles. Really only adds a couple of minutes to travel time.

They aren't obstructing traffic, they are traffic. Auto drivers just need to grin and bear it. I ride the same rides solo. The groups probably help in that regard. Makes drivers appreciate a solo rider.

50 riders isn't traffic, it's a parade. Anyone else would need a permit to take over that much of the road.
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Old 07-19-21, 08:06 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
50 riders isn't traffic, it's a parade. Anyone else would need a permit to take over that much of the road.

areas are different. In the Bay Area there are rides 50+ deep every day, and rides 100+ deep every Saturday. The ride I do runs every weekday and regularly has 50-100 people. Rides like that have super strong people pulling everyone along, people saying we should go single file or even try to enforce a double paceline are wrong. It's too hectic and unorganized, it's not a club ride. Hell they let me in with flat bars and no helmet.

also Jon is right. Speed limit 30 and we go like 20-25 or something, they can wait a couple miles until we get to a bigger road. We can't pull over, too dangerous
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Old 07-19-21, 09:06 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
In the Bay Area there are rides 50+ deep every day, and rides 100+ deep every Saturday. The ride I do runs every weekday and regularly has 50-100 people. Rides like that have super strong people pulling everyone along, people saying we should go single file or even try to enforce a double paceline are wrong. It's too hectic and unorganized, it's not a club
We can't pull over, too dangerous


You're digging yourself a deeper hole: you respond to someone pointing out that your ride probably requires a permit by detailing exactly why it does.

Local authorities may still be looking the other way, but that's not necessarily safe as your initial post made it clear some drivers are taking it on themselves to enforce an expectation that basic traffic principles remain in effect unless there's an official rolling road closure for your event.

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Old 07-19-21, 09:26 PM
  #62  
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We are nowhere near disruptive to the point that we need road closures. Yes, the way we ride annoys cars, but frankly all groups annoy cars and I think we share the road better than most organized club rides out here. Some of them literally take up the entire road 8 riders deep going 11 mph between hills, sandbagging super hard.

Yes this is a fairly dangerous group, but that's because you have newbies redlining trying to keep up with former euro pros. We aren't that obnoxious with traffic. Apparently Chris Horner came to this ride once and wrecked everybody haha. I think it's awesome that they are inclusive.

also this driver was actually insane. if you were there you would have thought it was crazy. He wasn't interested in passing us, he just wanted to teach us a lesson

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Old 07-19-21, 10:18 PM
  #63  
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had someone a heart attack... then would it be deemed assault, or perhaps manslaughter?
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Old 07-19-21, 10:34 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
We are nowhere near disruptive to the point that we need road closures. Yes, the way we ride annoys cars, but frankly all groups annoy cars and I think we share the road better than most organized club rides out here. Some of them literally take up the entire road 8 riders deep going 11 mph between hills, sandbagging super hard.

Yes this is a fairly dangerous group, but that's because you have newbies redlining trying to keep up with former euro pros. We aren't that obnoxious with traffic. Apparently Chris Horner came to this ride once and wrecked everybody haha. I think it's awesome that they are inclusive.

also this driver was actually insane. if you were there you would have thought it was crazy. He wasn't interested in passing us, he just wanted to teach us a lesson

So you're now at the level of claiming that several wrongs make a right, and admitting this IS fairly dangerous. Screw that, I hope the group gets busted, they've earned it.

Basically, you want the guy thrown into jail because he's being annoying and vaguely dangerous in response to your admittedly annoying and dangerous behavior. There's no way a group that size is legal, and eventually, there will be an incident and a crackdown.

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Old 07-19-21, 10:49 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by AstroTurf View Post
had someone a heart attack... then would it be deemed assault, or perhaps manslaughter?
No, a heart attack is not a "violent injury" as required by California assault law, and good luck proving causation beyond a reasonable doubt for the manslaughter charge.

I lost all sympathy for the op when he revealed the size of the group. A bit of honking is a pretty mild reaction to that.
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Old 07-19-21, 11:46 PM
  #66  
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I want him talked to so he realizes how dangers his actions are. No offense lions but it sounds like you don't ride with these kind of rides or live in an area with them, you don't know the dynamics. Just because crashes happen in this ride and its dangerous doesn't mean we should be subjected to additional harassment from cars, especially when its slower road hog club rides that draw ire towards us.
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Old 07-20-21, 07:47 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
I want him talked to so he realizes how dangers his actions are. No offense lions but it sounds like you don't ride with these kind of rides or live in an area with them, you don't know the dynamics. Just because crashes happen in this ride and its dangerous doesn't mean we should be subjected to additional harassment from cars, especially when its slower road hog club rides that draw ire towards us.
Your continued negative references towards other club rides is quite telling. You sound like a serious Park Tool on wheels
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Old 07-20-21, 08:44 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
50 riders isn't traffic, it's a parade. Anyone else would need a permit to take over that much of the road.
One of the group rides here in Fargo has been running over 50 riders for the past several weeks. We ride double pace lines and get out of town as quickly as possible. Most of our riding in town is on 25 MPH speed limit roads and we are mostly running 16-20 in town.

Once we are out on the open highways we are double lines on the shoulder when practicable, and in the lane when it is not. When we are in the lane we take up about half the lane. There have not been any incidents that I have been aware of.

We did have one "road rage" incident on a smaller faster ride of about 10 people where a guy in a heavy duty pickup towing an equipment trailer had to wait maybe 20 seconds before he could pass the group and screamed insults as he passed. Ironic if you ask me.
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Old 07-20-21, 09:48 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by downhillmaster View Post
Your continued negative references towards other club rides is quite telling. You sound like a serious Park Tool on wheels
Not trying to disparage my fellow riders, shouldn't have been negative, was just reacting to people saying my group is being jerks by saying many of the organized club rides are worse offenders in slowing cars down. Not that any of this excuses the motorist in question
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Old 07-20-21, 10:07 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
I want him talked to so he realizes how dangers his actions are.
Ironic

If you shared the full description of the situation you posted here, the lecture likely wouldn't be the one you were hoping for, just as the thread hasn't been the one you were hoping for.
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Old 07-20-21, 02:17 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
I want him talked to so he realizes how dangers his actions are. No offense lions but it sounds like you don't ride with these kind of rides or live in an area with them, you don't know the dynamics. Just because crashes happen in this ride and its dangerous doesn't mean we should be subjected to additional harassment from cars, especially when its slower road hog club rides that draw ire towards us.

No offense, but I used to live there, and 50 people rides were not common at all. And yes, I don't think you should deliberately engage in behavior that is illegal, annoying AND dangerous and expect people not to harass you. Frankly, you haven't convinced me at all what the driver did WAS dangerous, just extremely annoying and obnoxious. Also, probably illegal as well, the two wrongs didn't make a right.
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Old 07-20-21, 02:23 PM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by DangerousDanR View Post
One of the group rides here in Fargo has been running over 50 riders for the past several weeks. We ride double pace lines and get out of town as quickly as possible. Most of our riding in town is on 25 MPH speed limit roads and we are mostly running 16-20 in town.

Once we are out on the open highways we are double lines on the shoulder when practicable, and in the lane when it is not. When we are in the lane we take up about half the lane. There have not been any incidents that I have been aware of.

We did have one "road rage" incident on a smaller faster ride of about 10 people where a guy in a heavy duty pickup towing an equipment trailer had to wait maybe 20 seconds before he could pass the group and screamed insults as he passed. Ironic if you ask me.
If I could think of a place where a 50 rider group wouldn't cause much trouble, it would probably be Fargo. That's a totally different world from where OP is riding. No way is just about any Bay Area road a good place to deal with that.
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Old 07-20-21, 02:37 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by LarrySellerz View Post
I want him talked to so he realizes how dangers his actions are. No offense lions but it sounds like you don't ride with these kind of rides or live in an area with them, you don't know the dynamics. Just because crashes happen in this ride and its dangerous doesn't mean we should be subjected to additional harassment from cars, especially when its slower road hog club rides that draw ire towards us.
Like how we are talking to you?

So that your actions do not breed more motorist hostility and get us hurt?

Like that kind of talking to?
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Old 07-20-21, 05:34 PM
  #74  
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From what I am reading, sounds like the OP should call the cops next time he thinks it is road rage and feels threatened. And if the person who was honking at the group should call the cops next time there is a large group riding in a perceived dangerous manner.

Everyone stay safe!
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Old 07-23-21, 09:21 AM
  #75  
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In every state I've done the research in, assault is the 'threat' part, so a continued honking like that could easily be considered assault. There was a case in TX where a driver was charged for exactly this kind of threatening behavior.

One of the best things one can do to actually be a safety advocate, if you can, is get video of this kind of incident. Hell, just pointing your camera at an aggressive driver will often de-escalate the situation as they realize the trouble they can get in (and yes, I've done this many times, so far with 100% effectiveness).
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