Tubeless Air Loss
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I've been using the P-Zero tlr tires for a couple of years with Zipp 303s wheels that are factory taped and BTLOS wheels that don't need any tape. I get no more pressure loss than a tubed setup. I use orange seal endurance sealant.
If tires leak sealant through the side wall, they're crappy tires, like Michelin tubeless. Michelin tires also suffer from excessive bead stretch.
If tires leak sealant through the side wall, they're crappy tires, like Michelin tubeless. Michelin tires also suffer from excessive bead stretch.
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I struggled for a long (!) time to get Schwalbe Pro Ones to hold air. I added Stans, retaped, added Stans (again)... still lost 20 psi on an hour ride. To ensure the sealant was distributed throughout the tires, I did the following:
1. Shake, bounce, spin - a lot
2. Lay wheel in a bucket on a level surface - lets wheel rest totally level - rest for 10 min.
3. Repeat #1 and #2 on other side
4. Repeat #1
5. Go for short ride.
No progress.
I put a wheel in a clear bin full of water. It's pretty clear what was happening...
There are a lot of things working against us to get tires to hold air without tubes - spoke holes, rim-bead interface, valve.... You'd think the sidewalls of the tires wouldn't be on the list. Also, you'd think Stans would be able to handle that - sealing the sidewall. I switched to Orange Seal and they're holding air - like, losing 2 psi overnight. I don't have a lab. I only did this with four wheels/tires, so I can't say for sure it's because of the Orange Seal... but it's because of the Orange Seal.
1. Shake, bounce, spin - a lot
2. Lay wheel in a bucket on a level surface - lets wheel rest totally level - rest for 10 min.
3. Repeat #1 and #2 on other side
4. Repeat #1
5. Go for short ride.
No progress.
I put a wheel in a clear bin full of water. It's pretty clear what was happening...
There are a lot of things working against us to get tires to hold air without tubes - spoke holes, rim-bead interface, valve.... You'd think the sidewalls of the tires wouldn't be on the list. Also, you'd think Stans would be able to handle that - sealing the sidewall. I switched to Orange Seal and they're holding air - like, losing 2 psi overnight. I don't have a lab. I only did this with four wheels/tires, so I can't say for sure it's because of the Orange Seal... but it's because of the Orange Seal.
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If you want to know about sidewall leaking, try running a Rene Herse Bon Jon Pass with the Extralight casing. Those weep through the sidewalls like crazy at the pressures I needed to run, and while they made for lousy tubeless tires for me, they are excellent performers, and probably my favorite tires…I just run them with light TPU tubes.
With regards to Michelins, I’ve run both the older Power Road and the newer Power Cup in 25mm size, and had neither problems with sidewall weeping nor bead stretch. I did not care for the ride quality of the Power Road, but the Power Cup are excellent for my needs as a fast road tire, with plenty of grip, good ride quality, great efficiency/speed, and surprising durability. I’ll probably re-up on Power Cups come late spring when it’s time to put some freshies on.
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I struggled for a long (!) time to get Schwalbe Pro Ones to hold air. I added Stans, retaped, added Stans (again)... still lost 20 psi on an hour ride. To ensure the sealant was distributed throughout the tires, I did the following:
1. Shake, bounce, spin - a lot
2. Lay wheel in a bucket on a level surface - lets wheel rest totally level - rest for 10 min.
3. Repeat #1 and #2 on other side
4. Repeat #1
5. Go for short ride.
No progress.
I put a wheel in a clear bin full of water. It's pretty clear what was happening...
There are a lot of things working against us to get tires to hold air without tubes - spoke holes, rim-bead interface, valve.... You'd think the sidewalls of the tires wouldn't be on the list. Also, you'd think Stans would be able to handle that - sealing the sidewall. I switched to Orange Seal and they're holding air - like, losing 2 psi overnight. I don't have a lab. I only did this with four wheels/tires, so I can't say for sure it's because of the Orange Seal... but it's because of the Orange Seal.
1. Shake, bounce, spin - a lot
2. Lay wheel in a bucket on a level surface - lets wheel rest totally level - rest for 10 min.
3. Repeat #1 and #2 on other side
4. Repeat #1
5. Go for short ride.
No progress.
I put a wheel in a clear bin full of water. It's pretty clear what was happening...
There are a lot of things working against us to get tires to hold air without tubes - spoke holes, rim-bead interface, valve.... You'd think the sidewalls of the tires wouldn't be on the list. Also, you'd think Stans would be able to handle that - sealing the sidewall. I switched to Orange Seal and they're holding air - like, losing 2 psi overnight. I don't have a lab. I only did this with four wheels/tires, so I can't say for sure it's because of the Orange Seal... but it's because of the Orange Seal.
I suppose that’s also the reason that Schwalbe say to run them immediately after adding sealant to ensure sealing, to embed the sealant in those micro cracks and perhaps prevent them from propagating. Obviously if there’s a lot of delamination it’s going to be a lot harder to get sealant into those spaces and require a lot more of it to get effective sealing.
It sounds like you did everything right, though…except use the required Doc Blue sealant! I’m teasing, as I would take that only as a recommendation despite Schwalbe saying “must” use Doc Blue, and in fact I never did use Doc Blue with any of the many Pro Ones I’ve used over the years, going back to the original One, which, as an aside, was fully lined and airtight. I even ran One without any sealant for awhile, just because I could.
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#32
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I struggled for a long (!) time to get Schwalbe Pro Ones to hold air. I added Stans, retaped, added Stans (again)... still lost 20 psi on an hour ride. To ensure the sealant was distributed throughout the tires, I did the following:
1. Shake, bounce, spin - a lot
2. Lay wheel in a bucket on a level surface - lets wheel rest totally level - rest for 10 min.
3. Repeat #1 and #2 on other side
4. Repeat #1
5. Go for short ride.
No progress.
I put a wheel in a clear bin full of water. It's pretty clear what was happening...
There are a lot of things working against us to get tires to hold air without tubes - spoke holes, rim-bead interface, valve.... You'd think the sidewalls of the tires wouldn't be on the list. Also, you'd think Stans would be able to handle that - sealing the sidewall. I switched to Orange Seal and they're holding air - like, losing 2 psi overnight. I don't have a lab. I only did this with four wheels/tires, so I can't say for sure it's because of the Orange Seal... but it's because of the Orange Seal.
1. Shake, bounce, spin - a lot
2. Lay wheel in a bucket on a level surface - lets wheel rest totally level - rest for 10 min.
3. Repeat #1 and #2 on other side
4. Repeat #1
5. Go for short ride.
No progress.
I put a wheel in a clear bin full of water. It's pretty clear what was happening...
There are a lot of things working against us to get tires to hold air without tubes - spoke holes, rim-bead interface, valve.... You'd think the sidewalls of the tires wouldn't be on the list. Also, you'd think Stans would be able to handle that - sealing the sidewall. I switched to Orange Seal and they're holding air - like, losing 2 psi overnight. I don't have a lab. I only did this with four wheels/tires, so I can't say for sure it's because of the Orange Seal... but it's because of the Orange Seal.
I've always used 2oz of Muc-Off sealant in each of my tires; it's thick and filled with particles to help clog holes. I ride Pro One tires too since 5 years. I've had 1 deflation problem at some point and it was caused by the tire not being seated properly. Deflated it, reinflated it, sealant leaked a little, everything sealed up properly and I was OK for the remainder of the season.
For those hookless rim owners, it's OK to go a little above the maximum recommended pressure when seating a tire if it does not seat properly. It won't damage it.
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Thanks for all the great info guys! So, I actually bought some Orange Seal last month when I thought that I'd seat the tires myself. But I also bought a Stan's Tubeless Kit, figuring that Stan's should have the whole "No Tubes" thing nailed down by now. I gave the Stan's sealant to my LBS guys when they mounted the tires. That's what they used. 2 oz. per tire. So, should I remount using the Orange Seal? Or can I just add some Orange Seal to the tire as is?
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Thanks for all the great info guys! So, I actually bought some Orange Seal last month when I thought that I'd seat the tires myself. But I also bought a Stan's Tubeless Kit, figuring that Stan's should have the whole "No Tubes" thing nailed down by now. I gave the Stan's sealant to my LBS guys when they mounted the tires. That's what they used. 2 oz. per tire. So, should I remount using the Orange Seal? Or can I just add some Orange Seal to the tire as is?
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#36
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I take full and abundant exception to those comments!
If you want to know about sidewall leaking, try running a Rene Herse Bon Jon Pass with the Extralight casing. Those weep through the sidewalls like crazy at the pressures I needed to run, and while they made for lousy tubeless tires for me, they are excellent performers, and probably my favorite tires…I just run them with light TPU tubes.
With regards to Michelins, I’ve run both the older Power Road and the newer Power Cup in 25mm size, and had neither problems with sidewall weeping nor bead stretch. I did not care for the ride quality of the Power Road, but the Power Cup are excellent for my needs as a fast road tire, with plenty of grip, good ride quality, great efficiency/speed, and surprising durability. I’ll probably re-up on Power Cups come late spring when it’s time to put some freshies on.
If you want to know about sidewall leaking, try running a Rene Herse Bon Jon Pass with the Extralight casing. Those weep through the sidewalls like crazy at the pressures I needed to run, and while they made for lousy tubeless tires for me, they are excellent performers, and probably my favorite tires…I just run them with light TPU tubes.
With regards to Michelins, I’ve run both the older Power Road and the newer Power Cup in 25mm size, and had neither problems with sidewall weeping nor bead stretch. I did not care for the ride quality of the Power Road, but the Power Cup are excellent for my needs as a fast road tire, with plenty of grip, good ride quality, great efficiency/speed, and surprising durability. I’ll probably re-up on Power Cups come late spring when it’s time to put some freshies on.
The fact that your experience is different doesn't negate mine. I had the earliest models that leaked initially and later in their life. I use hookless rims where bead stretch is more obvious. Eventually, if the air is let out to add sealant, the tire immediately unseats and can't be reseated, except with a high volume shot of air. You can't get a valve core back in without the tire unseating. Take the tire off and you'll find a large amount of dried sealant all around the bead that was added as the tire leaked over time. A Pirelli P-Zero TLR won't do this. The bead stays tight, regardless of age.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 01-05-24 at 08:48 AM.
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#38
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https://www.michelinman.com/bicycle/tires/michelin-power-cup-tlr-competition-line#sizes
A Pirelli requires a lot of persuasion to remove, even after being mounted for two years on my 25mm IW hookless rims. They are approved for hooked or hookless rims.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 01-07-24 at 09:35 AM.