SJX426 

See this thread over on the Frame builders forum. I would like as much input as possible before making a decision of the next step.

randyjawa 

Start by ensuring that the wheel is properly dished and true. The quickest check is to reverse the wheel in the frame drops and then take a look at how it sits. If the situation flips, then chances are good that the wheel is improperly dished. If not, then true up the wheel, ensuring that it is dished properly and repeat the above. If things are still off, then it is time to adjust the stays and align the drops.

Dylansbob 

Sorry, I'll ask the obvious question.

Are you sure the wheel is dished correctly?

Other than that, you could tweak either side a touch with a 2x4 while the frame is clamped in a vise.

headwind15

If it is not a mis-dished wheel, what you have going on is the the left drop-out is brazed in higher than the right one, hence the wheel is cocked over to the right. The easiest fix would be to use a 3/8, 10 mm file, and file the right drop out upward. I am a frame builder, I have had to do this, it does work. Do not file too much. It may only take a millimeter or a little more to get the wheel over to the middle. Do not use a 2 x 4 and vice as suggested, that will accomplish nothing, besides wreaking the frame.

headwind15

I don't know what type of drop-outs your bike has. If it has vertical drop-outs, you might be able to build up some epoxy in the left drop-out and after it hardens file it until it makes the wheel sit properly. If the frame has horizontal drop outs the epoxy is only going to make impossible to get the wheel back in. (don't do it).

Doug Fattic 

There can be a number of problems causing your wheel to sit to one side. This is a more common than many realize. While it is probable one seat stay is longer than the other, it could be caused by other issues. Many classic steel frames have something off. If this frame is important to you, I would take it to an experienced framebuilder that has the proper tools to check all aspects of its alignment. Using a 2 X 4 is like using a pipe wrench to adjust your derailleurs.

The process begins by facing the bottom bracket shell to insure it is 90º to the threads. Then it can be placed on a flat alignment table to see that the main tubes (excluding the top tube) are in the same plane. Unless they are heat treated tubes, they can be bent into alignment. Then the rear triangle can be checked and adjusted to insure the dropouts are equidistant from the frame's centerline and their faces are parallel to each other. Now it is possible to check with true wheel to see if one of the stay lengths is longer than the other.

If the wheel doesn't center - and you have horizontal dropouts - the bottom of one dropout can be bent down a bit until it does (of course every time the wheel is placed in the frame you have to make sure the axle is resting on the bottom of the slot). If you have vertical dropouts the top of the slot can be filed until the wheel centers.

Charles Wahl

Your bottle cage looks crooked too.
While awaiting the cavalry, keep riding it!
I think Doug Fattic's advice over on C&V is the best -- take it to a pro who knows how to do this properly. If it were a Raleigh, then a 2 x 4 might be the appropriate tool.

Spaghetti Legs 

Mostly an echo of the others. Check everything else but if the bike handles fine I would not start torquing on the frame and would remedy by possibly some rear dropout realignment (either via tool or the adjusters) or more simply by just adjusting and recentering the brakes.

Edit: Also I have Park dropout tool and wheel building tools if you need and you're willing to make the trip to Charlottesville.

SJX426 

The offset is the same at the brake bridge and the chain stays.
I pulled the wheel that was on it and found that it too had the same offset to compensate for the triangle.

DO are Pinarello
Brake with dished wheel on Flickr
Chain Stay with dished wheel on Flickr
P1020183 on Flickr
P1020171 on Flickr
@Doug Fattic - Greatly appreciate your comments, Mentioning a 2x4 is like implying using a club to to kill a fly. From your perspective I can understand how cringe worthy a reaction might be! In my defense, I used one to successfully straighten a fork that was important to me, finishing up the adjustment on an alignment tool. it was important for two reasons, it was the right fork for the bike and required a 38mm offset for that geometry. The fork was only produced for a couple of years and I wanted to match the frame, even if it was off by one year, 84 vs 85.
I understand cold working and the potential impact to the crystalline structure of the material. The only reason I embarked on such an effort was the comments by Dave Molten on his web site. Force was applied gently, with periodic checks.
WP_20150430_008 on Flickr
P1030007 on Flickr
Fork Jig 2 wfork on Flickr
P1040476 on Flickr

easyupbug 

You posted in the right place w/ framebuilders, but my experience may be interesting to you. How does it ride? I acquired an unridable custom Reynolds 753 (said by Reynolds can't be cold set) with a tweaked fork and frame. String test was way off and hung upside down by string from my hanger door (a la old MyTenSpeed site) around wheels at the hubs it twisted sharply. I tied straightening the fork on a cast iron table only to have it pop back out of alignment as soon as I mounted the bike. Local frame builder used Marchetti tables to align frame and fork and it now has 1,000s of lovely rides on it, but the string test is still off by a full 2mm.

repechage

First and easiest evaluation is to flip the wheel, it will fit, protect the hub from the chain with a rag or tape.

often this procedure discounts the frame

Charles Wahl

I dunno: fork still looks bent to me.

headwind15

Because you do have horizontal drop outs,the rim centering between the chain stays is controlled by those small screws in the back ends of the drop outs. I did not see where you mentioned what happened when you reversed the wheel. IE ... is the problem the frame or is it a improperly dished wheel??? I am sorry, I know Doug Fattic has been doing frame building since the mid seventies, but I disagree with his idea of bending the drop out down, because then you would be depending on the pinching force of the quick release to hold the axle down (I do not know how much you weigh) but every time that you get on the bike the axle is going to be pushed up and your wheel will be cocked over again.

gearbasher

My two cents: Center the wheel between the chain stays using the adjusters. Ride the bike. If it rides fine, leave it alone.

We had a saying on my job. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

headwind15

One more thing... You could bend the left drop out down and the put some epoxy underneath the top of the drop out, let it harden/ dry and then file it down with a fine flat file, until the wheel fits back in. That way the axle is resting on the epoxy. This is all assuming that the wheel is properly dished. I am would be surprised to hear that this is a frame issue. I would expect quality control at Pinerello would not have missed this. Yes someone else can chime in.

repechage

but then one rides the bike in the UK or Japan and it pulls to the wrong side.

this is the type of potential problem that will just gnaw until resolved.

Doug Fattic 

I like this idea better than filing the dropout itself. There is much less chance a novice will make an unrepairable mistake. I noticed the dropouts were chromed and cutting through the chrome with a file can be very challenging (especially to someone not used to using one) because the chrome may be tougher than the file teeth. And filing the chrome (unless super good chrome) may start it separating from the face of the dropout too. And the filer may not realize how far the wheel will move with each stroke and go a little too far. That is why I wasn't suggesting that approach. Filing epoxy is easy and more can be applied if something went wrong.

Regarding the accuracy of this and other classic steel frames. I've aligned hundreds of frames (probably thousands) since the mid 70's and found most have alignment issues. I'm usually only surprised when one is spot on. In my experience, the Japanese frames have the best record. Italian frames improved their record near the end of when they made steel frames because of the availability of Bike Machinery and Marchetti frame building tooling and alignment equipment.

Did Pinerello actually make their frames in house or did they use one of those major manufacturers that produced frames for various marques?

headwind15

If it is the drop out... you use masking tape on the side of the drop out, have the tape create a ledge so the epoxy stays on the flat (inner) part of the drop out/ does not ooze out all over that nice chrome. After the epoxy is dry, just remove the tape and then file it down as necessary.

P!N20

For this era of frame, definitely in house.

SJX426 

I tried the RJ approach but after a couple of attempts, I am giving up. I will dish the rim to fit the bike. It shifts fine so even though the chain line might be off, it isn't enough to make a huge difference.
LIkely will visit this another time. I did not use the ST as a the fulcrum. Instead, a 2X4 was placed in front of the seat lug and bb lug to distribute the force. What bothered be was the possibility of the TT and DT bending instead of rear triangle!

Doug Fattic 

Redishing a rear wheel to specifically center on your Pinarello is the most sensible DIY approach to partly solving the problem that the frame was most likely built with one seat stay longer than the other. The chances of making things worse by trying to bend something is 100 times greater than making it better. And if you actually did bend something, how do you know you bent it to the right place? What are your reference points? This is why your instincts were correct to stop bending before you really messed things up.

The most important aspect of a frame's alignment is that the seat tube points 90" from the threads in the BB shell. If the ST is not 90º to the BB shell, it will be 90º to the ground when it is ridden. This results in the cranks being a bit crooked so that the pedals are crooked which may effect your knees. When NECA came out with their cleat aligning system in the era when almost everybody rode steel frames, they also had to come out with a frame aligning system or cleats could not be properly adjusted.

Every frame is a bit different in how easily it bends but for the most part everything bends easy enough to do it all by hand without the need for extra mechanical leverage. And bending one part often effects another. Framebuilers have various approaches to alignment and we all don't universally agree. Except that if you want it done the best way, let those with proper tools and experience do the work - especially when there is indexing and more gears.

repechage

Rereading the thread, Doug Fattic’s advice on seeking out a frame builder with an alignment table at hand is sound advice.

there are plenty of ways for a frame to be “off”.

I am not excited about just dishing the wheel to match the frame. That implies that wheel will only be with that frame and other wheels not used. “Fixing” the current wheel may screw up the alignment with the front. You don’t know, till you Know.

try a different known properly dished rear wheel and review that in the frame. Placing the wheel in the frame without a tire is a good thing as has been done.

SJX426 

Don't know that I have one! I just know the wheel that was on there for sever k miles was trued to the frame and the bike rode well. Checking its dish showed the same amount of offset as the new rim is offset in the frame.

The skew is toward the DS.

The other option with the properly dished wheel is to move spacers from NDS to DS. It would increase the spacing from the smallest sprocket to the DO/stays and improve chain line.

I do have one! The wheel on the De Rosa is nearly centered. Just a small amount of offset. Will true that one up and see how it fits.

SJX426 

Update: same problem with a centered wheel. It is offset toward the DS of the Pin. As stated in the title, the rear triangle is off.

I don't know of a frame builder near me with a table. I guess that is the long term approach.

BTW: the seat stays are nearly identical in length If off it would be at the seat lug. haven't measured the chain stays. The offset is equal between the brake bridge and the chain stays. The adjustment screws in the DO are not the same with the DS sticking out more than the NDS. This tells me it is the triangle.

Or...... the BB shell is off of the plane of the center of the bike! I can see the value of a table more now.

Mr. 66

It's not the best way to check front triangle, but if you don't have a table, one can clamp angle iron or such to the bb shell and measurements can made along seat tube, and rotated to down tube measured.

Since you are checking alignment it is not a bad idea to lay a strait edge along the front triangle tubes to check for bow.