So where is the line (limit) on ebikes?
#51
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Oh well then, for the average cyclist or pedestrians we shall judge all motorists by the actions of the very worst. Got it.
#52
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I'm not making this up.
I made a g-bike. I've put on over 1300 miles riding the streets and roads around here. I'm usually traveling between 10 and 14mph. While putt-putting around town I've been passed many times by people pedaling their bicycles. It doesn't bother me because I realize just because I can go 20mph I don't have to go 20mph.
I made a g-bike. I've put on over 1300 miles riding the streets and roads around here. I'm usually traveling between 10 and 14mph. While putt-putting around town I've been passed many times by people pedaling their bicycles. It doesn't bother me because I realize just because I can go 20mph I don't have to go 20mph.
BTW, even though I can theoretically cruise at 28 mph many places on my bike, doing so eats up batteries fast. And I carry about 1200 watt/hrs of battery. What I found was that the sweet spot for speed was around 20 mph. I'd be a bit faster going downhill and a bit slower going uphill. This was the sweet spot for me between range and speed of travel.
If I could legally set my e-bike up to have 1500 or 2000 watts of motor power, I would. But I'd still shoot for 20mph or so most of the time. I'd use the extra power to clear intersections more quickly and to better assist with short steep hills.
#53
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Next thing you know, you will start complaining about being too slow in adopting the metric system!
Just so you know, we did give it a shot of sorts. Around 1982 or so I remember seeing signs posted on highways using both miles and km. But a few years later, km gradually disappeared.
Unless you can bring a dictatorial system of governance to US (disguised as whatever one hopes might sell easily… carbon credit, good for environment, steaks pooping too much etc), irrespective of what you or I may think, it would have almost no effect. You do realize that we have the best government money can buy. If you don’t like some legislations, buy legislators to fix the problem spots… or so they say.
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#54
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I’m happy for them; if they got what they wanted.
When I visited the Netherworld, e-bikes weren’t there. Hopefully, they will coexist peacefully.
US on the other hand, is slightly larger than the Netherlands and there is a great deal of diversity in people, their opinions about what is appropriate or best for them, and lastly and most importantly, our politicians don’t always listen to us, the people who supposedly got them elected.
When I visited the Netherworld, e-bikes weren’t there. Hopefully, they will coexist peacefully.
US on the other hand, is slightly larger than the Netherlands and there is a great deal of diversity in people, their opinions about what is appropriate or best for them, and lastly and most importantly, our politicians don’t always listen to us, the people who supposedly got them elected.
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all. I am saying it doesn't happen to the degree of wretched excess that some imagine. A 30mph motor is in a completely different league of construction to a 20 mph motor, and overvolted 20mph (250W) motors don't live very long. In the U.S. the Class 1 & 2 speed limit is still 20mph, but motor power can legally be far in excess of 250W (250 - 750) So there is more to be gained from overvolting motors in the U.S. The firmware of a EU mainline Bosch or Shimano motor is way more difficult to access than the open source firmware of a Bafang or Tongshen product. There are vanishingly small numbers of EU riders hotrodding Gazelle e-bikes to 30+ mph. There are more U.S. owners of Luna and Eco-Cycle systems boosting the output of those motors but not the majority. Still, these machines are a far cry from the e-motors in dirtbike chassis that are set up from go to reach 30mph and beyond. I've never seen one on the street, and I live in the very bike dense Portland, OR metro area. I see the entire gamut of what is possible with two wheels on a daily basis. I don't ride the MUP's. IMO they aren't the place to play with speed.
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Y'all ought to watch a YouTube review of a Class III e-bike sometime. When you see what it takes from rider and machine to reach an honest 28mph and stay there for even one minute ... mostly it does not happen. The majority of Class III 750W high performance e-bikes are ridden at 'normal' e-bike speeds.
1) 28 mph consumes a lot of battery power and that limits range substantially.
2) 28 mph doesn't really improves trip time that much compared to the 20+ mph that is also fairly easy on battery consumption.
Thanks to the (usually) superior R&D necessary for Class III compliance, the bikes that make that cut will be more enjoyable at Class I & II speeds, and will get back down to zero mph much more quickly. I'm putting it out there that a lot of people that have a lot to say about how much power e-bikes should have and/or how fast they should be allowed to go, do not have any intention of actually owning an e-bike themselves. They want e-bikes neutered to even below 'push bike' levels for the good of us all.
(BTW, it doesn't take much R&D at all to make a Class III e-bike..Just about any modern e-bike controller can be set up to limit power, require pedal movement, and set power cutoff limits. When they passed a version of the three class e-bike system in Arizona, It was a simple matter to update my settings so that my bike was/is Class III compliant. MTB disc brakes are plenty good to bring even a heavy e-bike like mine to a rapid stop.)
Last edited by Jay Turberville; 12-13-23 at 07:05 PM.
#58
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I'm not saying it doesn't happen at all. I am saying it doesn't happen to the degree of wretched excess that some imagine. A 30mph motor is in a completely different league of construction to a 20 mph motor, and overvolted 20mph (250W) motors don't live very long. In the U.S. the Class 1 & 2 speed limit is still 20mph, but motor power can legally be far in excess of 250W (250 - 750) So there is more to be gained from overvolting motors in the U.S. The firmware of a EU mainline Bosch or Shimano motor is way more difficult to access than the open source firmware of a Bafang or Tongshen product. There are vanishingly small numbers of EU riders hotrodding Gazelle e-bikes to 30+ mph. There are more U.S. owners of Luna and Eco-Cycle systems boosting the output of those motors but not the majority. Still, these machines are a far cry from the e-motors in dirtbike chassis that are set up from go to reach 30mph and beyond. I've never seen one on the street, and I live in the very bike dense Portland, OR metro area. I see the entire gamut of what is possible with two wheels on a daily basis. I don't ride the MUP's. IMO they aren't the place to play with speed.
It's also worth keeping in mind that a 250 watt consumption does not equal a 250 watt output. Most electric e-bike motors don't get much better than 80% efficiency. And that's under an ideal load, not the typical load. Even with mid-drive bikes that can benefit from bike gearing that lets them operate more optimally, I wouldn't be at all surprised if mid-drives were frequently operated at 50% efficiency and below. And if the controlling regulation was on power output and not consumption, clever makers could probably tune their controllers so that they output 250 watt in most conditions. If I were making e-bikes, I'd be seriously looking at that so that my e-bike would have superior performance while being compliant. That would mean that they could easily be consuming double and triple that wattage - by design.- and still be compliant. If that is the case, those would be good bikes to chose for stealth hot-rodding because the system would be designed to use and waste 250-500 watts of power (heat)..
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Both hub and mid-drive motors are poorly (air) cooled, because really effective air cooling would also let in water! So, while the stationary magnets can be cooled by direct thermal conduction to the motor housing, the spinning magnets cannot. This creates an upper limit for heat dissipation for both types of motor. The mid-drive can at least be geared to need less torque (power) for the same road speed. That's why mid-drives are more efficient than hub motors. .
And keep in mind that there are two types of hub drive motors, direct drive and planetary gear drive.
Direct drives can use ferro fluids to greatly increase conduction from the stators to the rotating magnets attached to the housing (the stators receive the electric current and are stationary relative to the hub motor axle.) This is one of the reasons that hot-rodders generally prefer direct drive hub motors. They can effectively use a lot of power and don't have to rely on relatively weak bicycle components to deliver the power.
Planetary gear drive motors don't generally have their rotating magnets so directly exposed to ambient air. So they inherently have a harder time shedding heat. Statorade doesn't really help them out for that reason. Also, at least some of their planetary gears are generally made of nylon plastic which softens when the motor gets hot making these motors further susceptible to failure from heat. So geared hub motors enerally less robust and not good choices for hot-rodding.
I used a direct drive (with Statorade - I live in a hot desert climate and ride up hills) to build my e-bike. It is heavier, but the big benefit is that is is durable. I've put 15,000 miles or so on it so far with no motor failures.
Last edited by Jay Turberville; 12-14-23 at 02:19 AM.
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I’m happy for them; if they got what they wanted.
When I visited the Netherworld, e-bikes weren’t there. Hopefully, they will coexist peacefully.
US on the other hand, is slightly larger than the Netherlands and there is a great deal of diversity in people, their opinions about what is appropriate or best for them, and lastly and most importantly, our politicians don’t always listen to us, the people who supposedly got them elected.
#61
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This wouldn't surprise me based on my own personal experience riding a Class III, and on two other factors.
1) 28 mph consumes a lot of battery power and that limits range substantially.
2) 28 mph doesn't really improves trip time that much compared to the 20+ mph that is also fairly easy on battery consumption.
1) 28 mph consumes a lot of battery power and that limits range substantially.
2) 28 mph doesn't really improves trip time that much compared to the 20+ mph that is also fairly easy on battery consumption.
Also, i just ran the numbers. I rode 11 miles last night; 5.5 miles each way. At 28 mph, that takes 23.5 minutes. At 20 mph, that takes 33 minutes. Going 28 mph saves 42% travel time. It's significant. Worth the Watt-Hours? That's up to you, but I guess it depends on how far you're traveling.
For my commute, 2 miles each way, it only saves 2 minutes per commute leg. Same percentage but more palatable to only lose 2 minutes.
The problem with bike advocacy groups is that they are not big enough, relative to the population of folks who want the opposite of what they want. (motorists) Example, if my city's residents were polled as an election topic whether to put $5M into bike infrastructure or repave some roads in poor shape, they will pick the roads every time. Let's say the roads are taken care of and the choice is between a new overpass or roundabout and protected bike lanes? Overpass will will every time, because EVERYBODY here drives, but only maybe 5% ride a bike for transportation.
#62
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[Sometimes digging slowly ourselves into a hole also becomes part of the process with the appearance of progress, and that is a different matter.]
#63
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You are right on point 1). Re. point 2) I was riding across town last night. 20 mph on my eMoped felt like I was just crawling along. Going to 25 felt a lot faster and safer. At 20 mph, every car is going to pass me, even on back streets. At 25-30, which my eMoped can reach, it's not so. (at least on back streets) That's some justification to use double the power at 28 mph compared to 20 mph.
Also, i just ran the numbers. I rode 11 miles last night; 5.5 miles each way. At 28 mph, that takes 23.5 minutes. At 20 mph, that takes 33 minutes. Going 28 mph saves 42% travel time. It's significant. Worth the Watt-Hours? That's up to you, but I guess it depends on how far you're traveling.
For my commute, 2 miles each way, it only saves 2 minutes per commute leg. Same percentage but more palatable to only lose 2 minutes.
The problem with bike advocacy groups is that they are not big enough, relative to the population of folks who want the opposite of what they want. (motorists) Example, if my city's residents were polled as an election topic whether to put $5M into bike infrastructure or repave some roads in poor shape, they will pick the roads every time. Let's say the roads are taken care of and the choice is between a new overpass or roundabout and protected bike lanes? Overpass will will every time, because EVERYBODY here drives, but only maybe 5% ride a bike for transportation.
Also, i just ran the numbers. I rode 11 miles last night; 5.5 miles each way. At 28 mph, that takes 23.5 minutes. At 20 mph, that takes 33 minutes. Going 28 mph saves 42% travel time. It's significant. Worth the Watt-Hours? That's up to you, but I guess it depends on how far you're traveling.
For my commute, 2 miles each way, it only saves 2 minutes per commute leg. Same percentage but more palatable to only lose 2 minutes.
The problem with bike advocacy groups is that they are not big enough, relative to the population of folks who want the opposite of what they want. (motorists) Example, if my city's residents were polled as an election topic whether to put $5M into bike infrastructure or repave some roads in poor shape, they will pick the roads every time. Let's say the roads are taken care of and the choice is between a new overpass or roundabout and protected bike lanes? Overpass will will every time, because EVERYBODY here drives, but only maybe 5% ride a bike for transportation.
I know that some people think that we are living in a time where our system of governance looks more like fascism but if we were, 5% well-connected people would have had much easier time pushing their wishes down the throats of the 95% majority.
In my town, a lot of people ride bicycles. A few years ago the city floated an idea to build another overpass on a highway, less than a mile away from an existing one for a cost of over a million $. Some people objected, not to discourage bicycling in town, but to them this addition seemed unnecessary. It was supported by the majority and we have a new overpass - a pretty one, art deco and all that. 👌
#64
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Rider power should be at least 1/3 of the total power in my books. More than that and I feel like I'm not really making any difference. And if the system fails, I would have to pedal a heavy bike. Rider assisted motorcycle? Nope.
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< 45 pounds (with battery); 30++ mph, easily keeps up with town traffic; pedals OK, but has never been necessary (sometimes I pedal without the motor for extra exercise).
#66
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I had a colleague who built one. He said it didn't have much torque but was terrifyingly fast, on the order of 45 mph.
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Thanks; It isn't finished yet because I haven't figured out whether to hide the wires under some kind of frame bag or shorten them. It's a project for a rainy day which we don't get in CA. This bike accelerates pretty fast @ 52V. Electric motors, usually rated as 3T - 12T (maybe higher but that's the highest I've seen) have a torque curve that can be "adjusted" to low end power (12T or ?) or high speed (3T or ?). As usual, Mother Nature isn't very forgiving. You get one or the other or a little of both.
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The problem with bike advocacy groups is that they are not big enough, relative to the population of folks who want the opposite of what they want. (motorists) Example, if my city's residents were polled as an election topic whether to put $5M into bike infrastructure or repave some roads in poor shape, they will pick the roads every time. Let's say the roads are taken care of and the choice is between a new overpass or roundabout and protected bike lanes? Overpass will will every time, because EVERYBODY here drives, but only maybe 5% ride a bike for transportation.
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Even among cyclists there are differing opinions. Some don't want bicycle infrastructure as they don't believe in it. Others don't feel it is necessarily a top priority. I think my city needs better bike infrastructure but I also think there are a lot of places where adding sidewalks would be a better use of limited funds. If you asked me to make the choice, I'd go with sidewalks.
In the city center, there needs to be separate bike lanes and sidewalks, for everyone to be safe.
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Once outside the city center, where a not a lot of pedestrians actually use sidewalks, I think they could just maintain the sidewalks to be smooth and clean and call them "multi-use paths" instead of "sidewalks". Maybe divide it into 3 lanes, as they do in Europe?
In the city center, there needs to be separate bike lanes and sidewalks, for everyone to be safe.
In the city center, there needs to be separate bike lanes and sidewalks, for everyone to be safe.
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#71
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You are right on point 1). Re. point 2) I was riding across town last night. 20 mph on my eMoped felt like I was just crawling along. Going to 25 felt a lot faster and safer. At 20 mph, every car is going to pass me, even on back streets. At 25-30, which my eMoped can reach, it's not so. (at least on back streets) That's some justification to use double the power at 28 mph compared to 20 mph.
Also, i just ran the numbers. I rode 11 miles last night; 5.5 miles each way. At 28 mph, that takes 23.5 minutes. At 20 mph, that takes 33 minutes. Going 28 mph saves 42% travel time. It's significant. Worth the Watt-Hours? That's up to you, but I guess it depends on how far you're traveling.
Also, i just ran the numbers. I rode 11 miles last night; 5.5 miles each way. At 28 mph, that takes 23.5 minutes. At 20 mph, that takes 33 minutes. Going 28 mph saves 42% travel time. It's significant. Worth the Watt-Hours? That's up to you, but I guess it depends on how far you're traveling.
The numbers you ran would only be realistic if there were no stops, yields or turns on your trip. When you add in the time to stop, the time at a stop, the time to slow down, and the time to get back up to speed - the difference in your top speed matters less and less. As an example, a few nights ago I did a 4 mile trip up and back to pick up some take-out burgers on my ebike. The route to the restaurant was mostly downhill. Net descent about 210 feet. My max speed was 29.8 mph (downhill - heavy bike). But looking at my speed graph, I had four full stops and five more points where I slowed down to 10 mph or so - probably turns. My average speed was 17.4 mph. Average moving speed 19.2 mph. Average heart rate 98 bmp.
My route back was slightly different. and was 0.1 miles longer. My max speed was 25.9 mph (uphill - heavy bike). I had fewer stops at only two and had to slow to 10 mph only twice. My average speed was 17.6 mph. Average moving speed was 18.2 mph. Average heart rate was 109 bmp.
Real world travel times get clobbered by slowing and stopping. Now, if I had limited my top speed on the way back to 20 mph and maxed out my speed with full power on the way to the restaurant, I'm sure the downhill trip would have shown a bigger gap. But it would be a couple minutes or so. And as a practical matter in day-to-day riding my e-bike, those few minutes just don't seem to be worth much.
Before retiring, on my long commute I'd go 16 miles and it would take me about 52-55 minutes on average by ebike while going about 2 miles further than the trip by car to avoid high speed roads. Typical ebike speeds were 20-25 mph. That's a 17.5 mph average.
By car I'd travel 14 miles and it would take me 30 minutes. Typical speed were 50-55 mph. That's a 28 mph average. Starts, stops and turns eat into travel times in a huge way. One thing that riding a bike and even an ebike tends to teach you is that rushing has far less benefit than many people seem to think. And this is, I believe, at least partly why most ebikers with Class 3 ebikes are not constantly going 28 mph. And know that's one of my reasons.
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#72
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Is that based on personal experience? My experience is quite different. That may be because my ebike is a Class 3 and I have to at least move the pedals to get the motor assist going. That effort seems to trick my brain into perceiving that it's providing all the power if I'm putting any substantial effort into pedaling. And I usually am doing that. I have to actually remind myself that the motor is doing the work by looking at the power meter readout and bike speeds. Psychologically it gets easy to be fooled. But I've ridden bikes all my life and its just natural for me to pedal while riding. It feels very odd if I don't. So your 1/3 power thing doesn't work for me at all. Even when consciously taking it easy on the ebike, I run only at about 10-20% lower effort (based on heartrate) than on my regular unassisted bike.
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But if you have any accumulated wealth, you might want to seriously consider the liability exposure, and additional civil citations possible in the event of an accident that draws attention to you.
In the event that you do want to make it a legal Class 3, You'll probably want a 53 tooth chainring and an 11, 12 ... sprocket on the back.
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So, for SoCal, not a legal ebike. Cops probably won't bother you if you don't act crazy with it though. Ride it like a bicycle and not a motorcycle and you'll probably draw very little attention.
But if you have any accumulated wealth, you might want to seriously consider the liability exposure, and additional civil citations possible in the event of an accident that draws attention to you.
In the event that you do want to make it a legal Class 3, You'll probably want a 53 tooth chainring and an 11, 12 ... sprocket on the back.
But if you have any accumulated wealth, you might want to seriously consider the liability exposure, and additional civil citations possible in the event of an accident that draws attention to you.
In the event that you do want to make it a legal Class 3, You'll probably want a 53 tooth chainring and an 11, 12 ... sprocket on the back.
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Taken in its entirety, that last post just shows how little you actually know about the subject of e-motors and e-bikes. This thread/forum really isn't the place for you to get up to speed. But, look at the quoted. Spinning fan? Spokes are NOT a fan. Both hub and mid-drive motors are poorly (air) cooled, because really effective air cooling would also let in water! So, while the stationary magnets can be cooled by direct thermal conduction to the motor housing, the spinning magnets cannot. This creates an upper limit for heat dissipation for both types of motor. The mid-drive can at least be geared to need less torque (power) for the same road speed. That's why mid-drives are more efficient than hub motors. Given that you know so little about all this, I just don't see how we can believe your claims that EU motors are using voltage x current profiles that result in 900W being put through 250W claimed e-motors. I simply don't believe that it is happening. I do know that there are easy ways to bypass factory settings and get motors to perform beyond their factory ratings. Speed is usually the goal. However, the motor has to have been constructed in such a way that when the increased power is put to it that it can survive the abuse. Will it? Depends of course. I just don't think there is much there there. No one is building 30mph potential into a motor and then selling it to the public with a 20mph limit. It simply is not happening. Were I you I would forget everything I think I know about all this and start from scratch again consulting only vetted sources of information. Good luck.
https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules
What counts as an EAPC
An EAPC must have pedals that can be used to propel it.It must show either:
- the power output
- the manufacturer of the motor
- the battery’s voltage
- the maximum speed of the bike
- must have a maximum power output of 250 watts
- should not be able to propel the bike when it’s travelling more than 15.5mph