HillRider

I understand your point and to some extent I'm sympathetic but in the real world people aren't going to spend the time needed to learn the "basics" if they know there is an easier, faster way. Do you insist people learn to write programming code before letting them use a computer?

Mr IGH

I have a set of veniers my Dad gave me back in 1978. A few years ago I bought a cheap digital caliper, I haven't used my veniers since. It's kinda like using a slide run, what's the point? Why not just say "bring calipers" and let the students choose? It's a evening class with students that are paying to get better at their hobby, not a freaking degree at a University.....

peripatetic

Yes. BASIC, Pascal or FORTRAN before you can touch the iPad, kiddoes!

Since this is a basic wheelbuilding class, learning to use the verniers doesn't seem like a stretch. I'd be more skeptical of, say, telling them to draw/forge their own spokes and rims...

I don't get the idea that everything has to be dumbed down so much.

It's really not all that tough, and you're actually learning something that helps you understand the basic thinking of things--that's the skill that's helpful. If you make it broad enough and quality enough to begin with, people can then begin to learn to do other things in the future. If you make it so easy it's just fun, a lot of people will go home, say, "Hey, I can build a wheel," and then be lost when it comes to figuring out how to just determine spoke lengths, and then quickly lose interest with, "too complicated." Sometimes, when you have to put a bit more effort into learning, the additional bits of foundational complexity make it so much more interesting to continue exploring and learning. I've been to many different types of classes on various "vocational" subjects, and I have a friend who makes it a quarterly activity of hers to go to adult schools in SF--we've both agreed it's a bit more fun when you actually learn some things of substance, rather than just survey the superficial stuff.

(The ultimate example of this tension, btw, is photography--I have tons of friends who've "taken it up," and they never figure out how aperture, shutter speed and ISO interact, mainly because a digital SLR in "auto" mode makes it all so easy. Put them in a difficult lighting situation, and they're kind of stuck and wondering why "their camera doesn't take very good pictures." Sure, the convenient and easy stuff will get you a long ways with technology, but it also helps in new situations to have the logical tools to be able to problem-solve.)

Anyway, to my mind, if you're quick enough to find verniers easy to learn but not as quick to use, good for you--you're eager enough and pick things up enough to find it "a waste of time." But if you're somebody for whom something like that takes a bit of work to wrap your head around, I'd say that probably means you're in more need of that bit of knowledge in the first place, and it will therefore serve you quite well.

3alarmer

Good evening all:

Thank you for all your contributions to this thread. It
seems to be slowing down a little, so this might be a
good opportunity for me to summarize and respond
here and there to various posts that have particularly
caught my attention.

First, I really never dreamed that this would generate
such response. Possibly some of you have issues with
prior teacher abuse, but all in all, I have been quite
fascinated by the range of response to what was initially
a pretty simple question: " Where can I get some cheap
vernier scale calipers that are accurate enough for
bicycle work?"

While I anticipated a certain percentage of "you are a
dinosaur, do you still hunt with a bow and arrow?"
responses, I did not anticipate the vehemence with which
some of you are willing to defend your right to digital
information. Some of you guys could use some lessons
in the gentle arts of persuasion. Anything that looks
like it could have " ...and the horse you rode in on"
tacked onto the end of it is unlikely, in my experience,
to change anybody's mind about anything.

Here is an example of a reasonably persuasive argument:

"I think it would make sense to require calipers, and then give them options of which ones to buy based on their own budget, understanding of the varying qualities and types, and future usage."

Here is an example of one less so:

"I understand your point and to some extent I'm sympathetic but in the real world people aren't going to spend the time needed to learn the "basics" if they know there is an easier, faster way. Do you insist people learn to write programming code before letting them use a computer?"

I am not swayed much by this for several reasons.
If the people I'm trying to teach this skill to are unwilling
to devote the five to fifteen minutes required to use a
vernier scale, why should I be willing to spend the
four evenings planned to teach them to lace, tension,
and true a set of wheels? What they do afterward
is between them and their own personal mechanical
gods. I don't care, (honestly i don't). And we have
already established that a workable plastic (Nylon?)
model can be got for about two bucks. So what, i ask
you, is the BFD?

For those of you concerned about the students paying
for these lessons and being pushed around and abused
by being forced to spend money on a tool they will never
use again, I have to introduce a little perspective here.
I'm not certain at this point that there will be any tuition charge -
certainly I'm not charging anything and because they
will also be browbeaten into buying a $55 folding
truing stand and another 10 bucks for a set of Avenir
spoke wrenches (BTW are these as good as the Park?);
the feeling at this point is that there will probably be no
charge or minimal charge for the class by the SBK.

Thanks especially to Danno and tcs for the links to
products and the previous thread. Thanks to FBinNY
for the philosophical support.

Which brings me to the Slight Philosophical Digression
(those of you who are uninterested in such things, feel
free to take a break -- smoke 'em if you got 'em)

I am particularly fascinated by the fact that this whole
thing is happening in Bicycleworld, where old steel
road bikes and fixies seem to fascinate so many people
(really to the point of obsession in some cases).
These are, of course, old technology. Am I to presume
that those of you who object teaching these kids to read
a vernier caliper by using one - and no one has argued these
are not up to the job at hand and more durable, only that
dials and digitals are easier to read (when they work)-
all ride on carbon fiber whatsits with only the best and
latest index shifting gruppos hung on them?

To interest people in using vernier calipers do I have
to call them "Vernies" and offer them in a wide array
of color customizable formats with hideously expensive
vernier scale aftermarket replacements in neon pink
and orange?

One of my favorite books of all time is "The Logic of Failure"
by Deitrich Doerner. On page 58 he says:

"As Brecht observed late in life, advocates of progress often
have too low an opinion of what already exists."

I can particularly recommend his detailed analysis of the
human comedy of errors that led to the disaster at Chernobyl.
(pp28 and following). Many people still do not realize that
the Chernobyl meltdown was 100% due to human errror
and a bunch of guys who thought they knew what was
going on having no real idea how the damn thing really
worked. The proximate cause was a series of safety tests,
apparently carried out by Laurel and Hardy.


On a more positive note, you all got me to thinking with
all your posts about how you never use your verniers
any more that there must be a huge pile of pretty good
verniers gathering dust in various drawers and workshop
cabinets all over the country. I looked on Craigslist and
just came home with a beautiful Matui and a Russian model
that may very well have come from Chernobyl -- I probably
ought to run them past a radiation monitor.

Again, thanks for all the contributions and intellectual
stimulation -- we old guys need that to fight off senility.
Anyone who wants to send me their unused high quality
verniers let me know by PM and I'll be happy to pay
postage. You have nothing to lose but your old technology.

Respectfully,
Mike Larmer

Mr IGH

Nice, the students owe you for gracing them. You're not really very enthusastic about this task...

Don't worry, with your attitude, you can be certain the students will not be giving you good review. You've really lost perspective, wheel building isn't rocket science or even nuke engineering....

peripatetic

Did you read the entire post?

You're nitpicking and taking his comments out of context. The overall tone of the post was fairly even-tempered and reasonable. It wasn't nearly as condescending or hostile as your own (unhelpful) comments in response.

3alarmer

Mr IGH:

Impressive use of the short quote out of context technique
of argument. By God, man, you have me. I am hoisted upon
my own petard!

At the risk of further annoying you, I will restate what I thought
was one of my more salient points:

Anything that looks like it could have " ...and the horse you rode in on"
tacked onto the end of it is unlikely, in my experience,to change anybody's
mind about anything.


I spent one unbelievably cold winter at the Great Lakes Naval Training
Base near Waukegan, and lived for several years in Minnesota (ain't
no place I'd rather gota), so I understand how difficult this time of
the year can be up there. Take care of yourself.

Regards,
Mike

SCROUDS

Thanks for the heads up. Seems that my coupon expired over the weekend, so I'll probably wait for it to pop up again before getting it. This was the one I was looking at: https://www.harborfreight.com/6-inch-...per-47257.html. Listed as 0.03mm accurate.

TimeTravel_0

I have this model: https://www.biketoolsetc.com/index.cg...&item_id=GN-VC

I can recommend it.

3alarmer

TimeTravel_0:

Thanks for this link, this actually looks pretty high quality
and is pretty competitively priced. At this point, I'm
thinking I'll just buy a half dozen of the 2 buck plastic
ones, give them away, and refer the students to this
thread for their further callipular education.

Mike

DannoXYZ 

I'm actually very fascinated by Mike's class. It's a mix of technology and art with some antique mysticism rolled in. After all, there's so many variables in wheelbuilding and some of it not easily quantifiable where you can attribute the results to a sprinkling of purple fairy-dust. Having a minimum of measuring tools and knowing how and why you're using them really does remove some of the vagueness and magic out of the process.

On the Avenir spoke-wrench set, that's a great deal for 3 wrenches. They are very similar to the Park wrenches of the same colour. On new wheels, they work great. For really difficult corroded nipples on wheels dredged out of a lagoon, I prefer the 4-sided wrenches. But these require more time to insert over the spoke-nipple and the benefits won't be needed by beginning wheel-builders anyway.

BTW, during my 10-years at a shoppe, we destroyed lots of calipers through abuse; dropping and stepping on them, getting smashed by other tools on the countre, etc. Didn't matter if they were stainless-steel or plastic, they had a limited lifespan anyway. We ended up stocking a tonne of the $2 plastic ones. Having 0.1mm precision is good enough for all bike work and we actually sold quite a few of them to customers as well.

3alarmer

As a side note, for those of you who are in need
of a combination vernier caliper/pipe wrench:

https://cgi.ebay.com/18-450mm-Heavy-D...9#ht_500wt_922

And of course, for those of you in colder climates
who need a backup splitting maul:

https://cgi.ebay.com/80-2000MM-INCH-M...#ht_3067wt_901

Andy_K 

I'm pretty sure I have that model. I like it a lot. The less accurate version (which I also have) will display things in fractional inches, which is nice when it's correct. I wish the more accurate model did that. I've also, already gone through a battery on the more accurate model in less than a year (I guess I measure a lot of stuff), but it came with a second battery. Otherwise, I have no complaints.

eddubal

Did I Misquote Mr. IGH and take his words out of context? Oops. My bad. I thought that I was reading between the lines.

clasher

Hey 3alarmer, I've kind of changed my perspective on this a bit since my pre-coffee morning postings yesterday... given the fact that you're giving 'em spoke wrenchs and a plastic vernier that you're teaching them how to use, I think it's fair to teach them how to use all the tools you're giving them. Good on ya. I think the thing that changed my perspective was remember how little time is actually took to learn how to use verniers. Also, I'd forgot about Sayre's law, "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue." There are some good videos on youtube for anyone that doesn't know how to use them.

Andy_K 

I can't resist chiming in on this topic. I read the subsequent posts too, but this snippet gets to the heart of what bugs me.

Can we agree that there is no connection whatsoever between understanding how to read a Vernier caliper and understanding how to build a wheel? This is not like the difference between using a calculator and performing a calculation with pencil and paper. It's like the difference between using a standard calculator and using an RPN calculator. There is nothing about the details of reading a Venier caliper that is directly relevant even to the process of measurement. Sure, it's a clever solution to the problem of getting an accurate measurement, but is there really any fear that people using digital calipers don't understand the underlying significance of the fact that it's telling them the distance between the posts?

eddubal

Okay, now that I've gotten that out of my system:

I just stumbled into this hornet's nest and hope that you'll read me out.

I whole heartily back your decision for recommending a vernier caliper. For people just learning, the basics are good. It also teaches them that you don't need to be within 1 micron to know the width of a hub. The accuracy of it is well within tolerances without being overkill. Frankly, you can do the same thing with two framing squares, but the caliper is so much easier. Some of the students might opt for a digital or dial caliper, but they should know that a vernier caliper will serve them perfectly well.

A fewsuppliers are:
https://www.mcmaster.com
https://www1.mscdirect.com
https://www.grainger.com

All have vernier calipers and are all over the country, so shipping times are very fast and inexpensive to boot. They have a wide range of calipers from the $4 calipers that you don't want, up to $2000, 24" long models. Decent ones come in right about $30. Digital and dial calipers add at least $10 to that price.

Have a good class!

Metaluna

Besides, it's not like you need to understand much theory to use a vernier. It can be done by following a fairly mindless step by step procedure, like this one:

https://www.tresnainstrument.com/how_...r_caliper.html

You don't have to think much at all about why the vernier scales work the way they do to take a good measurement. And honestly, even when you *do* understand the principle behind it, I'm not sure what benefit that knowledge conveys to a wheel builder.

If I were using it as part of, say, a beginner machinist's course, it might have some pedagogical value, because it gets people to think about and discuss things like precision and accuracy, significant figures, how to read scales, etc. In this context it seems like it might be a distraction from the main point of the course though.

3alarmer

Abso-bygod-lutely. It is possible that the original intent here has
gotten lost. I simply want to make these people - who are bike
dorks almost by definition since everyone knows that at this
point in time it is cheaper to buy prebuilts and retension them
than to buy spokes and components and build your own-
aware that there is a simple tool that is cheap to buy
and adequate to the measurements you need to do a good
job of wrenching on bikes, that will fit in your apron pocket,
and doesn't require batteries, and doesn't have that
friggen' dial sticking out to get caught on stuff and go
straight at the concrete floor at 32' per second per second.

It is just knowledge guys, it shouldn't be that scary.

Mike

Mr IGH

There you go again, getting your biatch on. All those quotes were your words, your students will sense it. Good luck!

Andy_K 

Of course, you're right. I hadn't considered that the target audience was bike dorks. Carry on.

Camilo

I still don't understand what "lesson" would be learned or advantage gained by using a Vernier instead of dial or digital. I have Vernier and dial and have used both. For some reason, I prefer the Vernier probably because I used it for years before I bought the dial. I am very confident that if it was the other way around, I'd prefer the dial. I would have bought a digital but the $VERY CHEAP price point of the Vernier suited me at the time, and the dial was bought as a gift for someone who already had one (therefore I got to keep it!). But I really, really can't imagine why learning to use a Vernier would make me a better "mechanic" in some way when dial and digital calipers are as available or more so nowadays.

As for the class, since I already own one, if I brought the dial caliper to class, would I be required to ditch it for the Vernier? Would using it make me a poor student or will it really decrease my learning experience?

I'd present the students with the one minute guide to the types of calipers, the price range for decent enough ones in each, the types of scale needed for the class, and then tell them to bring one of their own choosing to class. Or a 1/2 page illustrated hand out. Then spend a whole FIVE MINUTES demonstrating how to use all three types at the beginning of class and go on your way.

By the way, I made both my kids learn to drive a stick shift - on a modern Subaru. But I have never forced them to learn how to shift the old 1950 Ford non-synchronized, double clutch tranny because there's no reason to do it if they don't feel like learning to drive that old relic. I really, really don't think that would make them better drivers.

I also don't really think learning to drive the stick shift made them better drivers. Just more versatile and one of very few things they can do that their friends can't.

Grand Bois

I just had to try one of these:

https://cgi.ebay.com/150-mm-6-Digital...item3f04dff7a9

It works for me and I get the same readings as I get from my "good" ones. Why pay more?

tcs

20% off coupon in today's paper brings the cost down to $1.27.

3alarmer

Just bought ten of the goddam things yesterday at
$1.59. This is also my investment strategy in the
equities market.