Ask your small, random, track-related questions here
#3201
Senior Member
one of the best things i ever had for winter training was a basement with a bike set up on a trainer, rollers right next to it, and a squat lamp next to that.
being able to cut down on the 'overhead' time of setting up, or figuring out how to train - hell, just having a space to do it and feel comfortable doing it - was a huge reduction of the cognitive load of training. i had a space. i could go down there and train; and then come up and make dinner.
being able to cut down on the 'overhead' time of setting up, or figuring out how to train - hell, just having a space to do it and feel comfortable doing it - was a huge reduction of the cognitive load of training. i had a space. i could go down there and train; and then come up and make dinner.
On the cost side, the weights were a big outlay, but not ridiculously huge. It's only a cheap Chinese gym setup. Everything is fine except I have bent my bar slightly. Buying a good quality bar is on the list, but the one I have is still ok and has been going strong for 4 years now. The weights check out to be correct, no dodginess there. The total outlay for everything including the Kurt Kinetic trainer was less than 2 years worth of gym membership. The fact that I don't have to wait for any equipment is an enormous bonus and the convenience factor that cuts down the total workout time is great.
#3202
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I'm really enjoying this discussion. I'm probably one of the only regular competitive track cyclists who commutes ~4 hours to get to his home track. 'Cognitive load of training' becomes a very real thing when needing to be awake and aware for an additional 8 hours one day per week. That's before I take into account that I need to race that day, too (I use this fact to justify buying trick aero gear, helmets, wheels, shoecovers etc. ). I try to convince myself that the commute is just sitting down for four hours, but it really adds up week after week. T-Town is actually easier because I head out the night before and stay at someone's place overnight, so the drive is more relaxing as all I have to think about is getting there.
That being said, I've done a few things to make my workouts easier to execute. I always set up in my back entry, as that is where my bikes live with my trainer near the door, and the front of the bike pointing into the house. So, I've wedged my trainer close to the door meaning I only have to move it a foot or two, and I have a fan set up pretty close to where the front of the bike is. Again, it only has to move a foot or two. For the gym, they pretty consistently take ~1 - 1.5 hours. I leave about 1.75 to 1.5 hours before my gym closes, so that by the time I get there, I have an hour or so basically to myself. There's pretty few curlbros at the gym at 9:27 PM on a Monday night.
Additionally, when the weather starts getting nicer and more of the workouts can be done outdoors, I'll simply ride my track bike to work which is less than five minutes away with all the stuff I need in a bag. I work at a bike shop primarily as a mechanic. Our storage is upstairs which means hauling bikes up and down constantly, and we always test ride repaired bikes. Thus, it's a very physical job. I've found that if I go home to do my workout, I'll just have dinner, pass out for a few hours, wake up groggy and not give 100% on the workout or just skip it entirely. When my only way home is to ride my bike, I may as well do the workout.
That being said, I've done a few things to make my workouts easier to execute. I always set up in my back entry, as that is where my bikes live with my trainer near the door, and the front of the bike pointing into the house. So, I've wedged my trainer close to the door meaning I only have to move it a foot or two, and I have a fan set up pretty close to where the front of the bike is. Again, it only has to move a foot or two. For the gym, they pretty consistently take ~1 - 1.5 hours. I leave about 1.75 to 1.5 hours before my gym closes, so that by the time I get there, I have an hour or so basically to myself. There's pretty few curlbros at the gym at 9:27 PM on a Monday night.
Additionally, when the weather starts getting nicer and more of the workouts can be done outdoors, I'll simply ride my track bike to work which is less than five minutes away with all the stuff I need in a bag. I work at a bike shop primarily as a mechanic. Our storage is upstairs which means hauling bikes up and down constantly, and we always test ride repaired bikes. Thus, it's a very physical job. I've found that if I go home to do my workout, I'll just have dinner, pass out for a few hours, wake up groggy and not give 100% on the workout or just skip it entirely. When my only way home is to ride my bike, I may as well do the workout.
#3203
Full Member
And how did you find this affected your event performance? ((Mind out of the gutter here, please!))
IOW, did you see that the training setup seemed to pay off? Did you come into spring with a higher level of fitness than before?
I'm currently working on this setup. My trainer/rollers are good, and I'm waffling on the lifting setup; it's a big commitment in money and especially in space.
My gut says the emotional payoff (your "cognitive load of training" is a phrase I'd like to adopt, please!) would be worth it alone. I'm the type to get really down when the gym gets super crowded for a few weeks or the weather is really crummy for a while. Did you see a big quantitative as well as the qualitative effect there?
TC
IOW, did you see that the training setup seemed to pay off? Did you come into spring with a higher level of fitness than before?
I'm currently working on this setup. My trainer/rollers are good, and I'm waffling on the lifting setup; it's a big commitment in money and especially in space.
My gut says the emotional payoff (your "cognitive load of training" is a phrase I'd like to adopt, please!) would be worth it alone. I'm the type to get really down when the gym gets super crowded for a few weeks or the weather is really crummy for a while. Did you see a big quantitative as well as the qualitative effect there?
TC
This year's my goals are again posted in my sig. To that end, I am focusing on the entire season. I have bought a new trainer and a power meter to shift to power based training along with a periodization-based training plan. This is all new to me, but so far it is working pretty well. I'm down 20lbs thus far, so I am progressing on goal number 1. The other goals will require focus through October and beyond, which I what I lacked last year. I am using the TrainerRoad software, which is compatible with my trainer and more importantly with my iPhone, which means I can record data while on the rollers, the road, and the track(once I get new cranks). Since my goals are focused on the entire season, my training plan us mapped out through October. I know October is a long way away, but I am comfortable enough with varying individual workouts based upon how I am feeling. This also means I will continue some high intensity training days in the basement even during the Summer, which I've never done before.
Anyway, here's a snapshot of my training plan that I put into an Excel spreadsheet. The blue and adjacent cells are completed training days. The white and adjacent cells are planned trainings. Bright yellow cells are FTP test days. Pale yellow cells are optional outdoor training days. I already have all of my vacation days and race days planned for the season. Now all I need to do is execute.
I'm pretty psyched right now, but I'll let you know if it all works out towards the end of October.
P.S. I have everything setup in the basement and after dinner I give Mrs. D a kiss good night and head downstairs for the next two hours.
#3204
Lapped 3x
Woo! This was always one of my favorite topics over on FGF. It would get heated! It's tough for text to come off with the friendly discussion tone I'm trying to use. Keep that in mind here:
What is your rationale for your statement?
It's my understanding that the whole point of high intensity, short time efforts is to train the alactic and glycolytic energy systems. Or alternatively, to train like you fight. Recovery from each effort relies on the recovery of those energy systems, not on the ability to run aerobically. Power lifters don't run- they lift. Power riders don't ride- they sprint.
What's your take, taras0000?
TC
What is your rationale for your statement?
It's my understanding that the whole point of high intensity, short time efforts is to train the alactic and glycolytic energy systems. Or alternatively, to train like you fight. Recovery from each effort relies on the recovery of those energy systems, not on the ability to run aerobically. Power lifters don't run- they lift. Power riders don't ride- they sprint.
What's your take, taras0000?
TC
It is my opinion that the extending one's ability to operate at their limit will allow them to raise that ceiling. To go faster requires more energy each time an improvement is achieved. Being a more efficient machine makes better use of the limited energy and recovery reserves available to an athlete. The athlete that is fresher at the beginning of each workout is more likely to make improvements that day. If he can do this more often than his competitors, he is able to build on that improvement much faster. Having a good aerobic base will allow you to improve on your glycolitic/lactic systems. This allows you to recover faster between efforts. Faster recovery means shorter workouts for the same amount of work = more time for recovery. Sprint work in itself will improve these things to a certain degree, but there are more effective/efficient/quicker ways to make these improvements, which in theory should speed up your sprint progression. Does this hold true for sprinters at the highest level of the sport. Probably less so than the guys who are chasing podiums on the weekends. At the Elite level a whole different level of training manipulation occurs to elicit infinitesimal improvements.
This is based on my own experience and what I've seen work. There are other training methodologies that work as well, and each one has it's merits and deficits. Looking back now, I would definitely make tweaks to my programs from years ago, but I would certainly not neglect the aerobic side of things. I would maybe do fewer "long" rides, and shorten them too, but I wouldn't go on a pure "sprint only" program as I found that although I got faster, it only helped to improve on my weaknesses, but I stagnated everywhere else. Keeping aerobic work in my program allowed me to "build a taller pyramid".
#3205
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I wish there were some way to qualify/quantify the training load of traffic on the way to racing.
Racing in the Springs (7-11/OTC Track) this winter has been a pretty hefty investment in "cognitive training load," with a minimum of 3 hours in the car per session/race day. I think I spent 5 hours in the car yesterday for an hour of racing. SO in the context of time spent preparing, AND training, I guess I'm getting pretty close to 40 hrs/wk if I make two trips to the Springs. That counts two 90-minute weight sessions, and 7-18 hrs/wk of riding. Lots of prep time goes in to that too. Maybe I should be less of a nancy about kitting up, and I could drop it to 38 hours a week. Heh
Racing in the Springs (7-11/OTC Track) this winter has been a pretty hefty investment in "cognitive training load," with a minimum of 3 hours in the car per session/race day. I think I spent 5 hours in the car yesterday for an hour of racing. SO in the context of time spent preparing, AND training, I guess I'm getting pretty close to 40 hrs/wk if I make two trips to the Springs. That counts two 90-minute weight sessions, and 7-18 hrs/wk of riding. Lots of prep time goes in to that too. Maybe I should be less of a nancy about kitting up, and I could drop it to 38 hours a week. Heh
#3206
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one of the best things i ever had for winter training was a basement with a bike set up on a trainer, rollers right next to it, and a squat lamp next to that.
being able to cut down on the 'overhead' time of setting up, or figuring out how to train - hell, just having a space to do it and feel comfortable doing it - was a huge reduction of the cognitive load of training. i had a space. i could go down there and train; and then come up and make dinner.
being able to cut down on the 'overhead' time of setting up, or figuring out how to train - hell, just having a space to do it and feel comfortable doing it - was a huge reduction of the cognitive load of training. i had a space. i could go down there and train; and then come up and make dinner.
(seriously)
#3207
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I wish there were some way to qualify/quantify the training load of traffic on the way to racing.
Racing in the Springs (7-11/OTC Track) this winter has been a pretty hefty investment in "cognitive training load," with a minimum of 3 hours in the car per session/race day. I think I spent 5 hours in the car yesterday for an hour of racing. SO in the context of time spent preparing, AND training, I guess I'm getting pretty close to 40 hrs/wk if I make two trips to the Springs. That counts two 90-minute weight sessions, and 7-18 hrs/wk of riding. Lots of prep time goes in to that too. Maybe I should be less of a nancy about kitting up, and I could drop it to 38 hours a week. Heh
Racing in the Springs (7-11/OTC Track) this winter has been a pretty hefty investment in "cognitive training load," with a minimum of 3 hours in the car per session/race day. I think I spent 5 hours in the car yesterday for an hour of racing. SO in the context of time spent preparing, AND training, I guess I'm getting pretty close to 40 hrs/wk if I make two trips to the Springs. That counts two 90-minute weight sessions, and 7-18 hrs/wk of riding. Lots of prep time goes in to that too. Maybe I should be less of a nancy about kitting up, and I could drop it to 38 hours a week. Heh
A couple of years ago, I backed off from the "full time masters racer" training schedule because I looked back and saw that I was neglecting my career (not learning new tech, exhausted, sleeping lots, and not getting to work early, etc...), I was also neglecting personal relationships. When I went to "weekend warrior" status, it was like my days got longer. I had time to do stuff, run errands across town, meet friends for drinks after work, etc...
...but I got fatter...so there's that, too.
I don't know if there is a happy medium between "weekend warrior" and "full time masters racer". I know there is, not sure if I'd be happy with it.
#3208
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I have never been a "full-time" master's racer, but I am certainly a "part-time" guy who puts in about 20 hrs per week (before July's crash). Like Carleton, I was tired, slept a lot etc. I finally fixed it by training the same but changing jobs to cut out about 4 hrs of commute to my job every day. Amazing what 4 extra days lets you do! Now back to about 12 hrs per week without gym work (doctors still don't want me stressing shoulder...but soon now). Seems to be working.
#3209
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Not to rag on the typical roadie model too much, but this is exactly how I felt when going from the chronic cardio paradigm to the track (with about 1/3 the saddle time, much more intervals and intensity). Previously: 6-hour sufferfest on Saturdays, followed up by being utterly useless for what little remained of the day; and then another ride on Sunday. Now: Saturday done before 10am; Sunday off. Weekends reclaimed. To be fair, during the week I probably spend more time than before, if you count lifting M/W/F. But I'm fortunate to have weights in the garage.
#3210
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I think we might be closer to being on the same page than you think. I tend to tag anything that is submaximal as aerobic work. I don't think that a sprint athlete should neglect lower intensity aerobic work. Should they spend a lot of time doing it? NO. It's been my experience that aerobic work has helped my sprint training. Anything that improves your work capacity will allow you to improve maximal output. Take two weightlifters. Both squat 300#. One is only able to manage 4 reps. The other is able to manage 6 reps. Who do you think has the higher max? I know it's an oversimplification and only one way to see it.
It is my opinion that the extending one's ability to operate at their limit will allow them to raise that ceiling. To go faster requires more energy each time an improvement is achieved. Being a more efficient machine makes better use of the limited energy and recovery reserves available to an athlete. The athlete that is fresher at the beginning of each workout is more likely to make improvements that day. If he can do this more often than his competitors, he is able to build on that improvement much faster. Having a good aerobic base will allow you to improve on your glycolitic/lactic systems. This allows you to recover faster between efforts. Faster recovery means shorter workouts for the same amount of work = more time for recovery. Sprint work in itself will improve these things to a certain degree, but there are more effective/efficient/quicker ways to make these improvements, which in theory should speed up your sprint progression. Does this hold true for sprinters at the highest level of the sport. Probably less so than the guys who are chasing podiums on the weekends. At the Elite level a whole different level of training manipulation occurs to elicit infinitesimal improvements.
This is based on my own experience and what I've seen work. There are other training methodologies that work as well, and each one has it's merits and deficits. Looking back now, I would definitely make tweaks to my programs from years ago, but I would certainly not neglect the aerobic side of things. I would maybe do fewer "long" rides, and shorten them too, but I wouldn't go on a pure "sprint only" program as I found that although I got faster, it only helped to improve on my weaknesses, but I stagnated everywhere else. Keeping aerobic work in my program allowed me to "build a taller pyramid".
It is my opinion that the extending one's ability to operate at their limit will allow them to raise that ceiling. To go faster requires more energy each time an improvement is achieved. Being a more efficient machine makes better use of the limited energy and recovery reserves available to an athlete. The athlete that is fresher at the beginning of each workout is more likely to make improvements that day. If he can do this more often than his competitors, he is able to build on that improvement much faster. Having a good aerobic base will allow you to improve on your glycolitic/lactic systems. This allows you to recover faster between efforts. Faster recovery means shorter workouts for the same amount of work = more time for recovery. Sprint work in itself will improve these things to a certain degree, but there are more effective/efficient/quicker ways to make these improvements, which in theory should speed up your sprint progression. Does this hold true for sprinters at the highest level of the sport. Probably less so than the guys who are chasing podiums on the weekends. At the Elite level a whole different level of training manipulation occurs to elicit infinitesimal improvements.
This is based on my own experience and what I've seen work. There are other training methodologies that work as well, and each one has it's merits and deficits. Looking back now, I would definitely make tweaks to my programs from years ago, but I would certainly not neglect the aerobic side of things. I would maybe do fewer "long" rides, and shorten them too, but I wouldn't go on a pure "sprint only" program as I found that although I got faster, it only helped to improve on my weaknesses, but I stagnated everywhere else. Keeping aerobic work in my program allowed me to "build a taller pyramid".
I think where we differ is in assuming the aerobic work in any way affects the recovery from alactic and glycolytic energy system training protocol. Aerobic work isn't the bottom of the pyramid on which a sprint is built. It's not even necessarily the biggest part of the pyramid on which a quick kilo is built. The difference between the lifter doing 4 300# reps and the lifter doing 6 300# reps isn't aerobic energy. If it is, then those lifters should be doing 1) way more weight to work a relevant strength-based energy system or 2) doing way way way more reps and winning whatever competitions it is that measure how long someone can lift before they can't anymore. Maybe Crossfit or something?
I feel pretty strongly that the science backs up my approach here, but would be extremely interested to see studies presenting information counter to this. I fully understand the "gut feeling" and the info gleaned from years of training logs. I've been over and back and forth myself quite a bit. I call into question not the data or correlation thereof, but rather the interpretation.
TC
#3211
Lapped 3x
Right on. I'll agree that there's a place for aerobic work in a sprint program. SOMEthing's got to get you to the start of your f200, to where the moto drops you off in a keirin, and help with the last 250m of a kilo. Seems to me that stuff can be taken care of with a few tempo rides per week (I do it Francis-style, 70%Max over race-distance durations) in between hard days.
The difference between the lifter doing 4 300# reps and the lifter doing 6 300# reps isn't aerobic energy. If it is, then those lifters should be doing 1) way more weight to work a relevant strength-based energy system or 2) doing way way way more reps and winning whatever competitions it is that measure how long someone can lift before they can't anymore. Maybe Crossfit or something?
I feel pretty strongly that the science backs up my approach here, but would be extremely interested to see studies presenting information counter to this. I fully understand the "gut feeling" and the info gleaned from years of training logs. I've been over and back and forth myself quite a bit. I call into question not the data or correlation thereof, but rather the interpretation.
TC
TC
#3212
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You know what? I got all inflamed about this, and thought I'd go through some of my papers and drop a research-backed bomb regarding how full of **** you are.
After picking through my hard drive of PDFs and my treasured sheaf of wrinkly, bunny-eared, stapled-and-restapled research papers, I didn't really find a whole lot of ammo to argue with. Basically, the research I could find on the subject says that the effect of aerobic fitness on multiple sprint exercise (this is extremely poorly-defined, BTW) is up in the air. Some research shows a positive correlation between factors of increased aerobic fitness and performance in multiple sprint exercise, while others don't. A big sticking point seems to be the lack of data regarding the mechanism by which this occurs. Obviously, there are all sorts of caveats and "oh, but. . ."s, and "this is only one part of the puzzle"s, but in this specific instance, I didn't find much with which to arm that missile I wanted to North Korea you with.
In other words, it appears that you're not wrong.
Hum.
TC
After picking through my hard drive of PDFs and my treasured sheaf of wrinkly, bunny-eared, stapled-and-restapled research papers, I didn't really find a whole lot of ammo to argue with. Basically, the research I could find on the subject says that the effect of aerobic fitness on multiple sprint exercise (this is extremely poorly-defined, BTW) is up in the air. Some research shows a positive correlation between factors of increased aerobic fitness and performance in multiple sprint exercise, while others don't. A big sticking point seems to be the lack of data regarding the mechanism by which this occurs. Obviously, there are all sorts of caveats and "oh, but. . ."s, and "this is only one part of the puzzle"s, but in this specific instance, I didn't find much with which to arm that missile I wanted to North Korea you with.
In other words, it appears that you're not wrong.
Hum.
TC
#3213
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Oh- I should point out that a lot of the aerobic fitness indicators that were measured for those studies were of our previously-outlined "submaximal" variety. Lots of VO2Max, etc. IOW- hard aerobic, not easy aerobic.
TC
TC
#3214
Senior Member
4 hours each way? You guys need to move closer to a velodrome!
I have two indoor timber velodromes and 6+ outdoor tracks within an hours drive. Two outdoor tracks are around 10 minutes away in the car!
I have two indoor timber velodromes and 6+ outdoor tracks within an hours drive. Two outdoor tracks are around 10 minutes away in the car!
#3215
Full Member
Okay, please tell where you live, so that I can start planning for my retirement. I'll need to let the Mrs. know well in advance.
#3216
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I can ride to my usual track in 30 minutes. Unfortunately, it's snowed been snowed in since November. We're discovering this "neat" phenomenon where water will freeze in the board gaps of turn 1. Even if the track LOOKS clear, you might be in for a treat!
#3217
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You know what? I got all inflamed about this, and thought I'd go through some of my papers and drop a research-backed bomb regarding how full of **** you are.
After picking through my hard drive of PDFs and my treasured sheaf of wrinkly, bunny-eared, stapled-and-restapled research papers, I didn't really find a whole lot of ammo to argue with. Basically, the research I could find on the subject says that the effect of aerobic fitness on multiple sprint exercise (this is extremely poorly-defined, BTW) is up in the air. Some research shows a positive correlation between factors of increased aerobic fitness and performance in multiple sprint exercise, while others don't. A big sticking point seems to be the lack of data regarding the mechanism by which this occurs. Obviously, there are all sorts of caveats and "oh, but. . ."s, and "this is only one part of the puzzle"s, but in this specific instance, I didn't find much with which to arm that missile I wanted to North Korea you with.
In other words, it appears that you're not wrong.
Hum.
TC
After picking through my hard drive of PDFs and my treasured sheaf of wrinkly, bunny-eared, stapled-and-restapled research papers, I didn't really find a whole lot of ammo to argue with. Basically, the research I could find on the subject says that the effect of aerobic fitness on multiple sprint exercise (this is extremely poorly-defined, BTW) is up in the air. Some research shows a positive correlation between factors of increased aerobic fitness and performance in multiple sprint exercise, while others don't. A big sticking point seems to be the lack of data regarding the mechanism by which this occurs. Obviously, there are all sorts of caveats and "oh, but. . ."s, and "this is only one part of the puzzle"s, but in this specific instance, I didn't find much with which to arm that missile I wanted to North Korea you with.
In other words, it appears that you're not wrong.
Hum.
TC
#3219
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Ill swing by, not racing though (Im in protest for the lack of sprint events lol)
what kit/bike are you on Ill be sure to introduce
what kit/bike are you on Ill be sure to introduce
#3220
Senior Member
I live 10 minutes away by car. I know of two riders who bought houses near the velodrome after it opened
#3221
Lapped 3x
You know what? I got all inflamed about this, and thought I'd go through some of my papers and drop a research-backed bomb regarding how full of **** you are.
After picking through my hard drive of PDFs and my treasured sheaf of wrinkly, bunny-eared, stapled-and-restapled research papers, I didn't really find a whole lot of ammo to argue with. Basically, the research I could find on the subject says that the effect of aerobic fitness on multiple sprint exercise (this is extremely poorly-defined, BTW) is up in the air. Some research shows a positive correlation between factors of increased aerobic fitness and performance in multiple sprint exercise, while others don't. A big sticking point seems to be the lack of data regarding the mechanism by which this occurs. Obviously, there are all sorts of caveats and "oh, but. . ."s, and "this is only one part of the puzzle"s, but in this specific instance, I didn't find much with which to arm that missile I wanted to North Korea you with.
In other words, it appears that you're not wrong.
Hum.
TC
After picking through my hard drive of PDFs and my treasured sheaf of wrinkly, bunny-eared, stapled-and-restapled research papers, I didn't really find a whole lot of ammo to argue with. Basically, the research I could find on the subject says that the effect of aerobic fitness on multiple sprint exercise (this is extremely poorly-defined, BTW) is up in the air. Some research shows a positive correlation between factors of increased aerobic fitness and performance in multiple sprint exercise, while others don't. A big sticking point seems to be the lack of data regarding the mechanism by which this occurs. Obviously, there are all sorts of caveats and "oh, but. . ."s, and "this is only one part of the puzzle"s, but in this specific instance, I didn't find much with which to arm that missile I wanted to North Korea you with.
In other words, it appears that you're not wrong.
Hum.
TC
I really wish you could've found something definitive. I'm too lazy to do this kind of research anymore and would have loved to be wrong and know for sure that I should try new methods. Back to training program ADHD and bouncing back and forth between training philosophies.
#3222
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So I finished second layer of glue on my tubular rims, but I don't get why I have to wait 24 hours.
I think 4~5 hours is dry enough to put an another layer.
Do you guys wait 24hours?
I think 4~5 hours is dry enough to put an another layer.
Do you guys wait 24hours?
#3224
Full Member
Probably because you got glue all over your rim and still haven't attached your tire, so now you need to wait for it to dry. Quit frankly, I've glued dozens of tires and raced in hundreds of races and never did the layering technique. I have never rolled a tire. That said, I think there is a broad range of acceptable techniques that will securely glue a tire to rim.
#3225
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Join Date: Jun 2015
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I'm most assuredly talking about the BVV! You just gave me a good idea for when my lease ends!