(Acer-Mex) Windsor Carrera Semi Professional?
06-25-21, 05:34 AM
#1
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Thread Starter
(Acer-Mex) Windsor Carrera Semi Professional?
Hey there fellas!
I'm sure the veteran members of this forum come across new users like me everyday, trying to figure out how much a vintage bike is worth with no prior vintage bike experience. My situation is not any different at all. However, as its the finals period of my university, 95% of my time is taken up by studying and making cups of coffee which leaves me with very little time to do my own research about this bike and i don't want to miss out on a sweet deal just because i couldn't make my mind about it.
I'm thinking of trading my ≈300$ mountain bike (carraro 920 force) with a local policeman's vintage Windsor Carrera. The policeman himself actually approached me with this trade because he had a bypass surgery recently and as a result he cannot lean forward as much anymore which disables him from using an aggressive stance racing bike. He also said he didn't really care about money as he said his bike is worth a lot more than mine and he is just looking for a bike he can ride on. I am also wondering what years model is this specific Windsor Carrera as the policeman put it up on the trading website as " Vintage Retro Carrera Semi-Professional". Here is also a link to a thread of this bike started by him: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...wich-bike.html
TL;DR, Do you guys think this bike is worth trading my ≈300$ mountain bike ?
The ad for this bike specifies:
CARRERA 23'
Acer - Mex Cinelli Remo Vecchi Design 60 frame
Argati Brianza Fork
Empty weeight 4.260 Kg
Windsore component Araya Aliminium 27' rim
Kenda new tyres
Sunshine 5345
36 hub Aliminium
Sugino main hub
Maxy2 arm
3pin Krank Aliminium
Suntour Handlebar Down Shifter
Suntour SP Syclone front derailleur
Shimano Sis rear derailleur
Gran Compe Handlebar Aliminium
Dia compe centre pull v brake Aliminium
Nervex Pro 2 Tube
Serial number right side
Serial number left side
Wheel angle adjuster on the frame
Rim
Rear Derailleur
Front Derailleur
Brakes
Pedal Closeup
Butt
...and finally the whole bike!
I'm sure the veteran members of this forum come across new users like me everyday, trying to figure out how much a vintage bike is worth with no prior vintage bike experience. My situation is not any different at all. However, as its the finals period of my university, 95% of my time is taken up by studying and making cups of coffee which leaves me with very little time to do my own research about this bike and i don't want to miss out on a sweet deal just because i couldn't make my mind about it.
I'm thinking of trading my ≈300$ mountain bike (carraro 920 force) with a local policeman's vintage Windsor Carrera. The policeman himself actually approached me with this trade because he had a bypass surgery recently and as a result he cannot lean forward as much anymore which disables him from using an aggressive stance racing bike. He also said he didn't really care about money as he said his bike is worth a lot more than mine and he is just looking for a bike he can ride on. I am also wondering what years model is this specific Windsor Carrera as the policeman put it up on the trading website as " Vintage Retro Carrera Semi-Professional". Here is also a link to a thread of this bike started by him: https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...wich-bike.html
TL;DR, Do you guys think this bike is worth trading my ≈300$ mountain bike ?
The ad for this bike specifies:
CARRERA 23'
Acer - Mex Cinelli Remo Vecchi Design 60 frame
Argati Brianza Fork
Empty weeight 4.260 Kg
Windsore component Araya Aliminium 27' rim
Kenda new tyres
Sunshine 5345
36 hub Aliminium
Sugino main hub
Maxy2 arm
3pin Krank Aliminium
Suntour Handlebar Down Shifter
Suntour SP Syclone front derailleur
Shimano Sis rear derailleur
Gran Compe Handlebar Aliminium
Dia compe centre pull v brake Aliminium
Nervex Pro 2 Tube
Serial number right side
Serial number left side
Wheel angle adjuster on the frame
Rim
Rear Derailleur
Front Derailleur
Brakes
Pedal Closeup
Butt
...and finally the whole bike!
Last edited by ususum; 06-25-21 at 03:40 PM. Reason: resized the images to make it less claustrophobic... and failed
06-25-21, 09:45 AM
#3
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...there is some confusion here. The Professional Windsor was equipped with full a Campagnolo New Record component group. Indeed, it was not unheard of for someone to buy one, just to strip off the components and put them on a more expensive frame, like one made in Italy. For a bike with a full Columbus SL frame, and all Campy, the Windsor Pro was a bargain in its heyday. So no, the Semi-pro is not the same bike as the Pro.
The bike in your photo looks a little rough to be asking $300, but it has functional components. Nothing particularly outstanding, but all of it works. Here is what Windsor Pro looks like, for comparison.
...there is some confusion here. The Professional Windsor was equipped with full a Campagnolo New Record component group. Indeed, it was not unheard of for someone to buy one, just to strip off the components and put them on a more expensive frame, like one made in Italy. For a bike with a full Columbus SL frame, and all Campy, the Windsor Pro was a bargain in its heyday. So no, the Semi-pro is not the same bike as the Pro.
The bike in your photo looks a little rough to be asking $300, but it has functional components. Nothing particularly outstanding, but all of it works. Here is what Windsor Pro looks like, for comparison.
06-25-21, 10:14 AM
#4
Junior Member
Thread Starter
.
...there is some confusion here. The Professional Windsor was equipped with full a Campagnolo New Record component group. Indeed, it was not unheard of for someone to buy one, just to strip off the components and put them on a more expensive frame, like one made in Italy. For a bike with a full Columbus SL frame, and all Campy, the Windsor Pro was a bargain in its heyday. So no, the Semi-pro is not the same bike as the Pro.
The bike in your photo looks a little rough to be asking $300, but it has functional components. Nothing particularly outstanding, but all of it works. Here is what Windsor Pro looks like, for comparison.
...there is some confusion here. The Professional Windsor was equipped with full a Campagnolo New Record component group. Indeed, it was not unheard of for someone to buy one, just to strip off the components and put them on a more expensive frame, like one made in Italy. For a bike with a full Columbus SL frame, and all Campy, the Windsor Pro was a bargain in its heyday. So no, the Semi-pro is not the same bike as the Pro.
The bike in your photo looks a little rough to be asking $300, but it has functional components. Nothing particularly outstanding, but all of it works. Here is what Windsor Pro looks like, for comparison.
I see, thank you so much for your reply! I was also confused with the discrepancies as how the frame doesn't look like the old magazine pictures nor do the components match with the info i snooped around on this forum however the seller also mentioned that this was a 1 of 4 in the world design bike with a specially designed frame, then sent me this link as proof as to why its so valuable which is also disputed about in another thread: https://www.ebay.com/itm/162644447131 . I am going to add more info later today as i'm currently trying to finish a final essay due in 4 hours.
06-25-21, 03:17 PM
#5
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Finally, i had a few hours free to analyze some details about this bike:
General:
The serial number right side image that i posted on the main post is just the frame size in inches, don't know how i expected a 2 number serial code to function
I suspect that the pedals are not original or not from post-1976 period which is a pretty long stretch
1-Year = 1974-1979 probably 1977 or im totally wrong and everything about this bike is a mix and match
According to https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm
All Sunshine brand hubs have "5345" written on them from 1972 to 1983 which means nothing for production year but having the Z prefix at the end maybe indicative of something so i will leave it here.
There are no brazed-on top tube cable tunnels on this model either and i hope it is because this is a pre 1979 model and not because they were broken off or anything. Another clue is the Compe-V front derailleur that was only made between 1974 and 1979.
There is also the information on the rim, acer-mex apparently used to make their own rims but they stopped after 197x (help needed here), which i suspect is after 1976 because a 1976 bike has windsor branded rims on them:
so 1977?
2-Frame model = Carrera Sport (AM-5 International 10 Speed originally, changed parts)
I thought maybe frames changed over the years and that is why the seller was sure that his bike is a semi pro or pro... now i don't think the bike frame is pro anything at all, he did say that the bike was painted dark reddish like the original paint of Windsor Carrera sport model in the catalogues however the dark reddish paint is not exclusive to the carrera sport model in the catalogues, here is a light colored carrera: So we know this is not a Carrera pro or semi pro or a super carrera etc., what is left?
AM-3 Carrera Special 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because the front hub is sunshine on the listed bike as opposed to sansin in the catalogue
AM-5 International 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because there is no down shifter on this model
and... nothing else, so there are important unoriginal parts on the bike.
However here is another clue:
so i believe the crankset is original as it would be hard to find around here? i guess?? the frame is definitely a carraro sport and the specific sale name could be AM-5 International 10-Speed that later got upgraded with a downshifter. Since parts have changed the model doesnt really matter other than the frame. Also it makes sense that since neither i nor the seller is in the US, this bike would have the International prefix.
3-Trade is worth it ?
I do not think so anymore
4-Value
200$? What do you guys think? I am open for discussion as i may be completely wrong about everything.
edit:Forgot to add that the seller clearly stated on the phone that this was one of the four carrera professional frames that exist in the world and the other 3 are currently in european countries and they are museum material. Could this not be easily disputed? Should i mail acer-mex or carrera and would they even care to give a statement? I would also expect some of the "other 3" bikes owners lurking in these forums as it is a popular hub for such collectors.
General:
The serial number right side image that i posted on the main post is just the frame size in inches, don't know how i expected a 2 number serial code to function
I suspect that the pedals are not original or not from post-1976 period which is a pretty long stretch
1-Year = 1974-1979 probably 1977 or im totally wrong and everything about this bike is a mix and match
According to https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm
All Sunshine brand hubs have "5345" written on them from 1972 to 1983 which means nothing for production year but having the Z prefix at the end maybe indicative of something so i will leave it here.
I concur, it's definitely an Acer-Mex product based on the serial number format and location, Cinelli style binder bolt and lug set. The Cinelli style binder arrangement was typically used only on models with double butted frames, so I wouldn't expect anything lower than a Super Carrera. Also, the double butted models started using brazed-on top tube cable tunnels for the 1979 model year, so we know it's pre-1979. It's also pretty safe to eliminate the top of the line Pro, based on the lugs. I'd like to know the droputs, the seat post diameter and whether there are any markings on the fork steerer tube.
There is also the information on the rim, acer-mex apparently used to make their own rims but they stopped after 197x (help needed here), which i suspect is after 1976 because a 1976 bike has windsor branded rims on them:
Thanks. It is a pretty one. The paint seems a bit fragile though. Perhaps not much of a clear coat (if any) on it. The measurements of this one are 57cm center to center and a 33-1/2 inches standover height.
The importing company sticker has a May, 1976 date.
Components:
Brake Levers -- Dia-Compe with additional safety levers
Brake Calipers -- Dia-Compe Centerpull
Front Derailleur -- Suntour Compe-V
Rear Derailleur -- Suntour V-GT Luxe
Shifters -- Suntour Ratcheting Barcons
Crankset -- SR Apex 170mm 52/40T
Rims -- Windsor labeled original
Hubs -- Sunshine
Saddle -- Windsor labeled original
Stem -- Gran Compe angular design
The importing company sticker has a May, 1976 date.
Components:
Brake Levers -- Dia-Compe with additional safety levers
Brake Calipers -- Dia-Compe Centerpull
Front Derailleur -- Suntour Compe-V
Rear Derailleur -- Suntour V-GT Luxe
Shifters -- Suntour Ratcheting Barcons
Crankset -- SR Apex 170mm 52/40T
Rims -- Windsor labeled original
Hubs -- Sunshine
Saddle -- Windsor labeled original
Stem -- Gran Compe angular design
2-Frame model = Carrera Sport (AM-5 International 10 Speed originally, changed parts)
I thought maybe frames changed over the years and that is why the seller was sure that his bike is a semi pro or pro... now i don't think the bike frame is pro anything at all, he did say that the bike was painted dark reddish like the original paint of Windsor Carrera sport model in the catalogues however the dark reddish paint is not exclusive to the carrera sport model in the catalogues, here is a light colored carrera: So we know this is not a Carrera pro or semi pro or a super carrera etc., what is left?
AM-3 Carrera Special 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because the front hub is sunshine on the listed bike as opposed to sansin in the catalogue
AM-5 International 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because there is no down shifter on this model
and... nothing else, so there are important unoriginal parts on the bike.
However here is another clue:
The bicycle actually looks more like a late 1970s Carrera Special. The main external difference was that the earlier Carerra Sport used the 3 pin Sugino Maxy crankset, while the later, Special variant used the 5 pin crankset, as pictured. The Special also had a tange CrMo double butted tubeset, while the Sport had a plain gauge tubeset. While the Windsor Professional and Competition had frames that were Cinelli clones, the Carerra variants were not.
3-Trade is worth it ?
I do not think so anymore
4-Value
200$? What do you guys think? I am open for discussion as i may be completely wrong about everything.
edit:Forgot to add that the seller clearly stated on the phone that this was one of the four carrera professional frames that exist in the world and the other 3 are currently in european countries and they are museum material. Could this not be easily disputed? Should i mail acer-mex or carrera and would they even care to give a statement? I would also expect some of the "other 3" bikes owners lurking in these forums as it is a popular hub for such collectors.
Last edited by ususum; 06-25-21 at 03:35 PM. Reason: forgot to add
06-25-21, 04:00 PM
#6
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Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: SE Wisconsin
Posts: 1,851
Bikes: Lemond '01 Maillot Jaune, Lemond '02 Victoire, Lemond '03 Poprad, Lemond '03 Wayzata DB conv(Poprad), '79 AcerMex Windsor Carrera Professional(pur new), '88 GT Tequesta(pur new), '01 Bianchi Grizzly, 1993 Trek 970 DB conv, Trek 8900 DB conv
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I bought new and still have a Carrera Pro from '79 or '80. Have the receipt in my files. Paid $600. It's Columbus SL tubing with Campy Nuevo Record throughout.
This catalog would be about '79 or '80.
This catalog would be about '79 or '80.
06-25-21, 04:04 PM
#7
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Finally, i had a few hours free to analyze some details about this bike:
General:
The serial number right side image that i posted on the main post is just the frame size in inches, don't know how i expected a 2 number serial code to function
I suspect that the pedals are not original or not from post-1976 period which is a pretty long stretch
1-Year = 1974-1979 probably 1977 or im totally wrong and everything about this bike is a mix and match
According to https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm
All Sunshine brand hubs have "5345" written on them from 1972 to 1983 which means nothing for production year but having the Z prefix at the end maybe indicative of something so i will leave it here.
There are no brazed-on top tube cable tunnels on this model either and i hope it is because this is a pre 1979 model and not because they were broken off or anything. Another clue is the Compe-V front derailleur that was only made between 1974 and 1979.
There is also the information on the rim, acer-mex apparently used to make their own rims but they stopped after 197x (help needed here), which i suspect is after 1976 because a 1976 bike has windsor branded rims on them:
so 1977?
2-Frame model = Carrera Sport (AM-5 International 10 Speed originally, changed parts)
I thought maybe frames changed over the years and that is why the seller was sure that his bike is a semi pro or pro... now i don't think the bike frame is pro anything at all, he did say that the bike was painted dark reddish like the original paint of Windsor Carrera sport model in the catalogues however the dark reddish paint is not exclusive to the carrera sport model in the catalogues, here is a light colored carrera:
So we know this is not a Carrera pro or semi pro or a super carrera etc., what is left?
AM-3 Carrera Special 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because the front hub is sunshine on the listed bike as opposed to sansin in the catalogue
AM-5 International 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because there is no down shifter on this model
and... nothing else, so there are important unoriginal parts on the bike.
However here is another clue:
so i believe the crankset is original as it would be hard to find around here? i guess?? the frame is definitely a carraro sport and the specific sale name could be AM-5 International 10-Speed that later got upgraded with a downshifter. Since parts have changed the model doesnt really matter other than the frame. Also it makes sense that since neither i nor the seller is in the US, this bike would have the International prefix.
3-Trade is worth it ?
I do not think so anymore
4-Value
200$? What do you guys think? I am open for discussion as i may be completely wrong about everything.
edit:Forgot to add that the seller clearly stated on the phone that this was one of the four carrera professional frames that exist in the world and the other 3 are currently in european countries and they are museum material. Could this not be easily disputed? Should i mail acer-mex or carrera and would they even care to give a statement? I would also expect some of the "other 3" bikes owners lurking in these forums as it is a popular hub for such collectors.
General:
The serial number right side image that i posted on the main post is just the frame size in inches, don't know how i expected a 2 number serial code to function
I suspect that the pedals are not original or not from post-1976 period which is a pretty long stretch
1-Year = 1974-1979 probably 1977 or im totally wrong and everything about this bike is a mix and match
According to https://www.vintage-trek.com/component_dates.htm
All Sunshine brand hubs have "5345" written on them from 1972 to 1983 which means nothing for production year but having the Z prefix at the end maybe indicative of something so i will leave it here.
There are no brazed-on top tube cable tunnels on this model either and i hope it is because this is a pre 1979 model and not because they were broken off or anything. Another clue is the Compe-V front derailleur that was only made between 1974 and 1979.
There is also the information on the rim, acer-mex apparently used to make their own rims but they stopped after 197x (help needed here), which i suspect is after 1976 because a 1976 bike has windsor branded rims on them:
so 1977?
2-Frame model = Carrera Sport (AM-5 International 10 Speed originally, changed parts)
I thought maybe frames changed over the years and that is why the seller was sure that his bike is a semi pro or pro... now i don't think the bike frame is pro anything at all, he did say that the bike was painted dark reddish like the original paint of Windsor Carrera sport model in the catalogues however the dark reddish paint is not exclusive to the carrera sport model in the catalogues, here is a light colored carrera:
So we know this is not a Carrera pro or semi pro or a super carrera etc., what is left?
AM-3 Carrera Special 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because the front hub is sunshine on the listed bike as opposed to sansin in the catalogue
AM-5 International 10-Speed - has red paint option however cannot be - Because there is no down shifter on this model
and... nothing else, so there are important unoriginal parts on the bike.
However here is another clue:
so i believe the crankset is original as it would be hard to find around here? i guess?? the frame is definitely a carraro sport and the specific sale name could be AM-5 International 10-Speed that later got upgraded with a downshifter. Since parts have changed the model doesnt really matter other than the frame. Also it makes sense that since neither i nor the seller is in the US, this bike would have the International prefix.
3-Trade is worth it ?
I do not think so anymore
4-Value
200$? What do you guys think? I am open for discussion as i may be completely wrong about everything.
edit:Forgot to add that the seller clearly stated on the phone that this was one of the four carrera professional frames that exist in the world and the other 3 are currently in european countries and they are museum material. Could this not be easily disputed? Should i mail acer-mex or carrera and would they even care to give a statement? I would also expect some of the "other 3" bikes owners lurking in these forums as it is a popular hub for such collectors.
....I would ghost that guy. Just how I roll.
06-25-21, 04:37 PM
#8
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies, the seller is having a serious medical emergency currently... so i cannot talk to him until that is resolved and he is ok... guess ill just wish him well because he is local and nothing else will come of this ordeal. There were a lot of redflags raised during the hours of talking between us but i stopped myself from connecting the dots per say until i was sure about the specifics of the bike for the sake of decency. I didn't mention any of the red flags here and tried to present his case as best as i could out of respect to him but now it seems to me that he couldn't be that oblivious to this many things being wrong about his bike.
Last edited by ususum; 06-26-21 at 03:16 AM. Reason: Removed pics
06-27-21, 05:32 PM
#9
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I paid $300 for a 1973 Windsor Pro a few years ago. It looks just like the photo 3alarmer posted except mine has been used and shows it’s age. I love the way it rides and it is just as nice as some of my other racers that get a lot more respect in the vintage collector market. I have no idea about the model you are looking at but the Pro is pretty special, IMHO
06-30-21, 10:01 PM
#10
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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Bikes: Miyata 610(66cm), GT Vantara Hybrid (64cm), Nishiki International (64cm), Peugeot rat rod (62 cm), Trek 800 Burning Man helicopter bike, Bob Jackson frame (to be restored?) plus a never ending stream of neglected waifs from the Bike exchange.
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Here is what a restored Carrera Sport looks like. I did all the work including painting It looks like yours does not have chrome lugs which probably makes it a base Carrera. I don't think there is anything you can do to bring it up to this level. The amateurish and sloppy paint really detracts from it's appeal. Add the fact that the previous owner spent as little e as possible keeping it up (electrical tape on the bars and for cable guides, frayed ends on too short brake cable, ugh ) and I personally don't think it is worth anything.
As received , a well used but cared for bike.
completed , ready for sale.
As received , a well used but cared for bike.
completed , ready for sale.
Last edited by capnjonny; 06-30-21 at 10:05 PM.
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07-01-21, 05:46 AM
#11
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In my experience, many unknowledgeable people believe that their bikes are worth way more than they really are. The blue bike, pictured is not worth anywhere near $300.00 in my opinion, so if your mountain bike is, don't trade! You will be on the short end.
If I had a nickel for every time someone came here with a Peugeot U08 and asked if it was a PX10, I could buy that bike and have money left over.
Buyer, or trader beware.
If I had a nickel for every time someone came here with a Peugeot U08 and asked if it was a PX10, I could buy that bike and have money left over.
Buyer, or trader beware.
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