Hypno Toad

I've done several FTP tests - both the step test and the 20-minute max effort. But I found that a Zwift race will get me to push myself much harder.

Over the winter, my Zwift FTP was dropping, I wasn't totally shocked since my schedule kept me off my bikes (indoor and outdoor). I completed the Zwift workout I'd been working on over the winter so I thought I'd try some races before moving outside full-time. Last week I signed up for a race (only two days after donating blood), and found myself pushing very hard - I'm competitive idiot. At the end of the race, I recorded my highest FTP of the winter and 7% higher than the last test.

No more FTP test for this Toad.

Hypno Toad

As if to prove my own point, I just completed a short race (12-mile) and got my best recorded FTP - 5% better the my previous best; and 16% better than the FTP test I did at the start of the month.

redlude97

A zwift race isn't always exactly representative of an FTP test. Remember an FTP test is an approximation of a 60 min effort so its not just 95% of a 20 min effort, there is the VO2max effort prior to the start to drain anaerobic energy stores. Also unless you are just using "FTP" as a measuring stick, this new higher FTP if used to base your training on will suffer from the same motivation issue for intervals, unless you plan on doing all your intervals during races on zwift only.

sdmc530

I find the Zwift FTP test a little unrealistic actually. The first time I did one on Zwift was last spring, checked the trainer and it was dialed in, did the long ftp test and it gave me a FTP of 299...…. disclaimer here, I don't actually have an FTP of 299. I waited a few weeks and did it again and it was 283. I don't have an FTP of 280 anything!
I decided to do this test out doors. I have a 1 mile or so crit track to use and found a not so windy day. I did this twice over the time of the summer in similar conditions. The first test I had a 224 FTP, that is probably more realistic. The second I hit 231. On these tests I used my power meter on my bike using the Garmin FTP test program, on the Zwift I used their built in program version and I do have a smart trainer.

I think my actual FTP is someplace in the 225 range on a good day in good conditions. Zwift is a GREAT training tool and off season riding motivator but I don't actually put a lot of faith in the test numbers. But that is jut my opinion based on my experiences.

What I really think is if you always compare same tests you will know that your improving or not. so the actually number isn't critical its having a true comparison to measure against.

redlude97

why not use your powermeter with powermatch on zwift? The more likely issue is that the smart trainer and power meter readings do not match, which is not a zwift issue, its a trainer issue. I use my PM on zwift so my numbers stay consistent indoors/outdoors. My smart trainer reads about 10% low, yours seems to read high. The zwift FTP test simply uses a incline/slope mode during the 20 min testing portion of the test so its not that different in practice compared to the road.

jpescatore

I don't have a power meter on my bike, as most of my outdoor rides aren't training rides, they are just long enjoyable rides. On the few shorter rides that really are just training rides, I can use Strava segment times and just plain old average speed to try to push levels. So, FTP for me is pretty much a Zwift-only concept.

That said, the 20 minute Zwift FTP test (I'm going to try the ramp one next) seemed to work pretty well for me. Doing Zwift races has only once upped my FTP from a recent test. I'm not a real racer, and my push it pace seems to put me in between "blobs" in most Zwift races - a race is almost like an FTP test with hills! Or, if I do latch on to a group, the drafting means I don't push my FTP anyway.

Doing the Alpe de Huez route on Zwift the second or third time on a good day also bumped it up once. With the switchback timing shown on that route, it lets me race against myself - much longer than an FTP test but a much higher pain/fun ratio for me so I've been using that recently as my FTP test of choice.

Hypno Toad

I want to train with my FTP at my maximum function threshold. By taking a Zwift FTP test and getting a lower FTP for training, my workouts will always be 5% to 15% below my actual threshold. I guess I'm saying, I don't understand your point.

BobbyG

FTP = Functional Threshhold Power

(Had to look it up, as I have only known it as File Transfer Protocol for the last 20 years).

redlude97

Youre going to find you fail alot of interval sessions during your training if your FTP is set too high, since the intervals are based on your FTP being calculated correctly. You can use your zwift race results if you take the avg power for a full hour but 95% of your best 20 mins from the middle of a race isn't the same as the 20 mins from the ftp test itself. This isn't a zwift issue, it's a testing protocol issue, and a self motivation issue.

Hypno Toad

LOL

If your FTP is set too low, you'll never fail an interval and not push your fitness to the next level.

My understanding (confirmed with VeloViewer's data analysis), Zwift calculated my new FTP based on 95% of my best 20-minute average during the race.

Like I said in the OP - "{during the race** found myself pushing very hard - I'm a competitive idiot". Translation: I found out I'm not very motivated by an FTP test, but I'm very motivated by a race.

redlude97

So what is going to motivate you during interval sessions if there is no competitive aspect there? Week after week especially as the fatigue builds during a build block?

Hypno Toad

A proper training program has low intensity rides and rest days built in to avoid fatigue. Do you use Zwift's training plans? Reference - https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2018/05/...-platform.html I completed the Gravel Grinder workout over the winter. I found it easy to hit all intervals with this program, a sign that my FTP test gave me a too low FTP for the workouts.

I kinda doubt I'll do a Zwift workout plan next winter; I'm planning a weekly Zwift race, combined with my typical winter fatbiking and Zwift freerides. This is a better fit for me and my joy of riding outdoors as much as my work schedule will allow.

redlude97

I'm familiar with their workouts but don't use any of their plans, because they are pretty poor quality in general for fitness gains. For example look at the zone distribution for the gravel grinder plan https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/gravel-grinder/
45 mins(1% total) of Z5 over 13wks? The problem wasn't that your FTP was too low, its that the plan is too easy. Take your zwift FTP and try a trainerroad build plan and see if you can sustain it.

Hypno Toad

That could be the issue, but I've never felt too challenged with Zwift workouts. I won't be changing virtual training platforms (all virtual coaches have their shortcomings). I'm not a huge fan of indoor riding, only using it because of work schedule crush. Getting into the Zwift races has brought a new challenge to indoor training and is motivating me. <-- that's the basic point of the tread, I'm sure I'm not the only one that is motivated by a competitive event.

redlude97

Sure, I've even posted about it before https://www.bikeforums.net/training-...ou-faster.html I'm just providing the caveat that for formal training FTP tests and zones should be carefully scrutinized. I use zwift races all the time instead of a structured threshold/sweetspot workout because its easier to motivate yourself, and it ends up being mostly that anyways.

Hypno Toad

I wish I knew this awhile ago

canklecat

Ditto, the competitive idiot thing.

I like to believe that I push myself hard riding solo or on the indoor trainer. But I still struggle with B-group rides (averaging 15-17 mph).

I was curious to figure out what was happening, so I studied my data for the past couple of years.

I only use apps -- Wahoo Fitness, Cyclemeter a year ago, Strava -- and some online calculators to guesstimate power. No power meters, etc., no smart trainer. But I know some local cyclists who do use power meters, are about my size and weight, and approximately similar fitness and average speed on the same routes. The software guesstimates are usually very close to their power meter data. I realized the best way to get useful power guesstimates from Strava is to ride loops or out and back segments, several miles long, preferably in all compass directions. This evens out the effects of wind and elevation. Again, comparing my Strava data with folks who have power meters confirms these are pretty close. Close enough for my purposes.

I'm as fast as many folks my age, even some younger than I, on some tough popular local segments. I've gotten faster on my nemesis, climbing -- although most of our "climbs" are actually rollers, lots of short, steep sprint-climbs. But I still struggle to keep up with the B-group, even though our average speeds over distance are the same.

I ruthlessly analyzed my data and compared with the folks I ride with. It was pretty revealing. I've gotten stronger only for relatively short bursts. I can sprint faster and maintain speed for a few minutes at a time. On a good day I can hold 300-400 watts... but only for a few minutes. Then I fizzle. After a minute's rest while soft-pedaling, I can go again. But I can't hold better than 150 watts over 20-30 miles.

No matter how much I train solo, I can't get motivated to approach FTP. Oh, I can do interval training and endure pain for a few minutes at a time. I finally realized HIIT and other interval training methods suit me because I was conditioned to it as a kid. My first serious competitive sport was boxing, as a teenager. We trained rigorously by the clock -- 3 minutes on, 1 minute off -- whether sparring, working the bags, skipping rope, etc. The only opportunity for sustained training was jogging, and I hated running. Absolutely hated it. Avoided it whenever possible. At most I might jog a mile a day to prep for an upcoming tournament. And it always showed in my results. I'd be fine early in the tourney, usually knocking out opponents in the first or second round. But by the semi-finals and finals I was tired and the better conditioned guys would outpoint me, usually in the third round because I was floundering around exhausted.

Turns out, subconsciously, I'm repeating that compromised training methodology, decades later. I had to study my data and look for patterns to realize I was still mentally conditioned to maximum efforts for only a few minutes at a time.

But I need that spark of competition that comes from riding with folks who are faster than me, sustained over distance. Pisses me off when I can't keep up with them, because it shows the numbers mean nothing in real world conditions.

Also, I'm sloppy about "training." I ride when I feel like it. Mostly because I'm still recovering from injuries and illness, so I hardly ever actually feel like riding. I just know I'll usually feel better if I go ahead and ride. I won't know until I've warmed up for 30 minutes or so whether I'm ready to tackle any serious "training", or whether I should just make it a casual effort to get in some saddle time. So until I'm fully recovered I'm just riding when I feel like it, not training. I'm still within 90% of my pre-injury/illness fitness, so I'm satisfied with that for now.

But now I realize I'll need to rejoin those B-group club rides to improve my sustained ability over time and distance. That's the only way to override my programmed conditioning.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

unterhausen

I think it's easy to over-perform your ftp in a race situation.

Hypno Toad

I'm trying to understand "over-perform FTP" - "Threshold" is your max performance, right?

redlude97

Again, ask yourself if you could repeat the effort in training while staring at a countdown. If all you want is to see a big number, sure. If you want to use FTP for training then test like you train

Hypno Toad

Not a big number (I know my FTP is not going to impress anybody) but an accurate 'threshold'. In training, I should be able to train to the same max effort as I do during a 'race'... I'm training to 'race' not training to train.

I know we've been going in circles about this question, I understand your point and I'm guessing you understand mine.

redlude97

Next time you hop on zwift try this workout https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/60...ftp-intervals/ if you can complete it then your FTP is probably close to spot on. Its an easy way to check your FTP. Lots of people fail the classic 2x20 threshold interval because their FTP is set too high

Hypno Toad

Deal!

It'll take a couple weeks to come back to this, my schedules going to keep me away from 'serious' biking until mid-April...

burnthesheep

How? That doesn't sound like a road race.

While the "time in zone" might work out that way, that isn't how the physiology of driving adaptations in your body works.

You won't be as effective at training threshold power by simply accumulating minutes shotgunned throughout a 90min race. You get it by executing uninterrupted intervals at the right power level for the minimum amounts of time.

SS intervals should be at least 15min long. Usually 2x20 or 1x60min+.

I've never had a race so steady I could just sit uninterrupted at SS for an hour. Other than time-trial workouts.

Zwift works because the races get you into power zones most people don't challenge on the local paceline ride. Even if the time in the zones is like I said, shotgunned.

If you want it to really work, you need to do both race-sim rides AND structured training.

For me, the race-sim ride is seen as the "dessert" and the structured training as "the balanced diet".

redlude97

All the zwift races I've done start with a <5 min vo2max effort to make the front group and then a sweet spot effort until the last 1-2km. I race at 30% trainer difficulty so terrain variations affect power less. It's not really different than doing SST on the road. For suprathreshold workouts yes structure is needed but subthreshold the physiological adaptions overlap to a large extent in the various zones https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/power-training-levels/
Remember that zones are not steps either, it's more like a volume knob