jdawginsc 

VX-GT and ARx were, in my opinion, the best duo of cheap friction RDs (AR/x front is a workhorse).

The VX/VX GT look and operate better than RDs five times their cost. And they are pretty darn tough.
The ARxs might be the most versatile of the RDs. Equally at home on sport, touring, and even MTBs. They are heavier, but they rarely fail.

Just my two cents. Cannot remember the model humber, but the generic looking Shimano long cage (reminds one of 600 GT), is also a good alternative.

Steel1

Vx gets the job done! These have lived the hard life and don’t complain… Almost all other parts on this steed have been swapped out, but the Suntour derailleurs remain.

noglider 

I didn't collect data systematically, but I was a bike shop mechanic during the heyday of these derailleurs. The V (V, V-T, and VG-T) and then subsequently the VX (VX, VX-T, and VX-GT) sold more because it came on more common, lower end bikes than the Cyclone. I did notice which bike components survived through various kinds of crashes, abuse, and neglect. I can't decide between the V and the VX, but they are way up there in durability and reliability. I've seen two or three Cyclones fail, and I don't remember I've seen working properly. Of course, the failures are much smaller in number than the successes, but the failures are significant, and they form my opinions.

Now I'm tempted to dust off a V-GT and try it. I"m pretty sure I have one in a bin somewhere. I wonder if I'll like it since nowadays I like indexed shifting. I know I have a Compe-V front derailleur, and I've been thinking of trying it again. I would mate it with a down-tube shifter even if I keep an indexed shifting brifter controlling the rear.

dddd

The comparisons with traditional parallelogram derailers patterned off of the Campagnolo Gran Sport and Record show Suntour's advantage in terms of shifting performance, but what about Shimano and Simplex with their dual sprung pivots giving the trademarked (by Shimano) "Servo-Panta" design function?

Sometimes these comparisons can come down to whether or not the Shimano derailer offers any B-tension adjustment so as to mate the derailer optimally with any given freewheel size.
I've seen many examples of Suntour rear derailers lacking the needed B-pivot adjustment range to track less-than-huge freewheels to the degree needed with today's super-flexible chains, and I've seen Shimano, Campagnolo and Huret rear friction derailers where a lack of any B-tension adjustability led to the same sluggish shifting response when using modern chain.
Using stiffer, traditional bushed chain, shifting performance differences (mainly due to chain gap variation) were "less of a thing" than they are with today's chain.

Usually there are B-pivot modifications that can be made to various models of derailers that can allow certain common smaller sizes of freewheels to be used with modern chain and provide more-responsive shifting action.
But I would be hesitant to claim that Suntour had any advantage at all versus Shimano derailers from the same period.
If anything, the Shimano derailers of the short-cage variety usually can perform well over a much larger gearing range than similar short-cage models from Suntour, simply because of the sprung B-pivot used on Shimano (but also on Simplex and even on some Huret and Campagnolo friction-era derailers).

It seems that each company was limited by the other's patents, since nobody including Shimano could use the slanted parallelogram without license until the mid-1980's, and with Suntour curiously not using a sprung top "B" pivot until later than that (Though Simplex, Campagnolo and Huret did use a sprung top pivot on various models).

So oddly, the first use of a "sprung" top pivot on Suntour derailers circa mid-1980's had their newly-sprung B-pivot active only when the wheel was removed (to retract the derailer against the sagging chain, thus simplifying wheel replacement). Once the wheel was back in place, the B-tension screw came to a hard stop against the hanger stop, making the pivot rigid against any movement due to varying chain tension.
Wanting my (indexed) Superbe Pro rear derailer to handle wider gearing, I only had to re-tension one of the pivot springs with an added hole for the end of the spring, and then remove the B-tension screw to allow fully-sprung motion with the wheel in place, while riding.
It seemed at that time like a patent must have been preventing Suntour from doing the same thing(?), yet Simplex used dual sprung pivots back in the very early sixties, meaning that any patent would have long been expired.

Anyway, long story longer, I have found that it is well worth the effort to make any non-adjustable B-pivot adjustable, whether it it is sprung or not (or to modify the range of B-pivot adjustment beyond what can be achieved even by removing the B screw on Suntour derailers using less than their largest-permissible freewheels). Almost any derailer can thus shift like the best of them, as evidenced by the fact that friction-era rear derailers can often actually handle the demands of index-shifting!
Oh and I should mention that on certain Simplex derailers (just as on post-2000 Campagnolo derailers), the dual-sprung action is actually adjusted via the cage pivot spring tension instead of at the B-pivot.

Cyclone GT rear derailer after backing the B-screw fully out and having removed just enough metal from the top knuckle to allow a tight gap up to the 28t freewheel cog for responsive shifting using flexible modern chain.


Un-modified, humble Shimano Lark-II short-cage rear derailer installed with very wide-ratio gearing, wrapping enough chain, while maintaining consistently-small chain gap for responsive shifting.


Internal modification (added spring hole) to the Gran Turismo's cage pivot.

rekmeyata

I used to have a bike with the V GT, personally I thought it was clunky, but it seemed to work well, I remember from way back then that Consumer Reports liked them too. But once I got use to derailleurs like the Superbe Tech, Mountech, (which I have on a former touring bike) or Campy Nuovo Record, I don't want to go backwards.

I also have a 85 Fuji Club I bought at a garage sale about 10 years ago that came with the ARX, I didn't like that derailleur at all after several years of dinking with it never could get it right, so I replaced that ARX with a NOS Superbe Tech I had bought in 1986 or 7 and it works great, but I have experience with the Tech on another bike that has over 150,000 miles on it and never had a single issue with the Tech, and I'm not having any issues with the second Tech on the Fuji.

I had a bike with Cyclone on it and it never had an issue, and I knew a lot of people who had that derailleur, and they never had any issues. A lot of reviews on the Superbe Tech and the Mountech, said they were problematic, even Disraeli Gears said they were bad, I never had any issues with them. The reason I bought the Superbe Tech that I never used was because I heard way back then they were problematic, so I wanted a backup derailleur but never used it till years later and that wasn't to replace the high mileage one. I used the Mountech quite a bit for bike camping and regardless of it getting soaked in rain, dirt, etc, it worked flawlessly.

I think the bike I had with the V GT was the Luxe model, but I can't recall anymore, it is highly adaptable, it can handle 5, 6, or 7 Ultra spaced, and I've read that someone made theirs index shift with a 6 speed? That sounded a bit strange to me, but maybe, I never heard of anyone doing that before.

Of all the friction shifting derailleurs I've had, the Tech series shifted the best, and it would shift when climbing a grade while under power. The Campy Nuova Record is pretty good too, but not quite as good as the Tech. I also have Campy GS Sport, but I don't really like the way it shifted either.

tkamd73 

I would prefer the Cyclone GT too, but only for the looks, the others work well too. It is quite a bit lighter, weight wise, if that matters to you.
Tim

dddd

Comparing results with the different Suntour derailers, or any derailers, often comes down to the choice of chain and freewheel, the chain length, chain gap and the cog sizes.

Clunky shifting for instance might be due to use of old-fashioned chain and/or freewheel. How smoothly that the cable and shift lever operates is also a huge variable, as is the friction level at the bottom bracket cable guide, etc.

The VGT handles a 13-30 7s freewheel to good effect on my Nishiki Kokusai, note that I completely backed out the B-tension screw for use with the current 13-30t freewheel (earlier 13-32t freewheel shown) to maintain responsive shifting feel using flexible modern chain. Adding some B-tension adjustment, I'm sure that it could handle some very large cogs. Something like a 13-34t is a piece of cake for the VGT, but the chain gap does become large on the smaller cogs.

Manny66 

Besides being a very good derailleur, Ill give Suntour huge credit for designing a Derailleur that can be removed without having to disconnect the chain.

rekmeyata

What?? Clunky shifting may be due to old fashion chain and freewheel? What year were you born?

I have a lot of bikes with old fashion derailleurs, chains, and freewheels, none of them shift clunky, in fact the road bikes I have that use Suntour Superbe Tech friction will shift better most of the time than modern briftor systems! I no longer have the bike that had the VGT derailleur, that bike got creamed out many years ago. Of course with friction there is room for error when shifting, if not done correctly could land you between gears, but like learning how to shift a manual transmission in a car you'll grind gears, but with practice you can get quite good with it.

79pmooney

Cyclones broke when you crashed on them. Drawback of being the lightest derailleur, perhaps ever. (And that was the only penalty you paid for the light weight.) But ... SunTour made so many and made so few changes that I went to shops after those crashes (or just because the parallelograms were getting sloppy) and ask to poke through their box of dead Cyclones. Find one with the half I needed in good shape, re-build mine with that and it was like new again. Pay the shop $5. I did that with my Mooney for about 40k miles.

rekmeyata

All derailleurs will break if you crash on them and hit them just right. Maybe those old heavy ones made of stamped steel that were extremely cheap, maybe those might not break, but even then I would question it.

dddd

I'm speaking in relative terms, as in using old, wide bushed chain with pins protruding to 8mm width.
Relative to using say Uniglide freewheel with UG-Narrow (or any newer chain), the old chains can shift rather clunkily, especially if you don't let off completely on your pedaling effort.

And, yeah, friction shifting is really good when the setup is good, I've been friction-shifting a Shimano Lark with downtube shifters every day this year since January 2, on road and off.

As I said though in my earlier post, the choice of components matters. Not every old chain gets along with every old freewheel, especially when you've become accustomed to shifting under some degree of load (Uniglide and Suntour freewheels seem to allow more of this than do older European designs).

sd5782 

Another factor I have been dealing with recently is the axle/hanger relationship. A 1982 Trek 412 that I am playing with has no dropout adjusters, and also the derailleur bolt hole is quite low. In stock configuration, it amounts to around 35mm.



1982 Trek 412 with VX GT

This creates quite the chain gap. The derailleur stop tab on this bike also doesn’t allow rotating the derailleur any more than pictured. Taking out the rd screw, and filing on the rd and even filing a bit on the dropout tab can get the rd parallel to the chainstay. Sliding the wheel forward in the dropout gets things a bit closer.
I did fabricate some delrin inserts to position the axle more forward, but ultimately used a Deore LX mid length rd and still needed some careful adjustment to make it satisfactory to shift a Suntour 14-27 that I cobbled together. I have no doubt the Suntour would’ve shifted a Uniglide freewheel fine, but I had other plans. Mostly though, my Suntours play nice for me, but not this one. Perhaps I am getting more picky too.

rekmeyata

I use to race back in the old chain days, once I got the Suntour Superbe Tech derailleur all clunkyness was gone, this was back in the late 70s to the late 80s. The only really bad clunker I had was a Simplex derailleur, that thing was not good, the rest were not bad, even the (1976) Campy Nuovo Record shifts very well with old style chain and freewheel on my 77 Raleigh Competition GS...but, the original Campy GS derailleurs that came on that bike were clunky, not as bad as the Simplex, but not that great either. Once I put the Nuovo Record on I had to put on a corncob Suntour Winner Pro freewheel from the same era as the bike, the tighter gear range might have something to do with it shifting better? But I don't use a corncob on my bike with the Tech derailleur.

The other really nice thing about the Superbe Tech, this is why I bought that derailleur, is that I used to live in S California, and we raced all over the mountains there, and that derailleur would shift under load without having to back off on the load while climbing a grade! It would literally bang into gear, all my other derailleurs I had to back off to shift when under severe load. The bike shop guy where I got the Superbe components from told me it would do that, so I bought it on his word, and he was right, he had better been right, I was racing with his store's team! He pushed that Tech stuff because he knew how brutal climbing mountains was and trying to shift, and being our team captain, so being able to shift under load gave us a bit of an advantage over other riders.

noglider 

I've been keeping track in my mind -- OK that's not actually keeping track -- of which components are more crashworthy than others. As I mentioned, I worked as a shop mechanic on and off for many years. My memories are not a controlled scientific study. Part of my time as a shop mechanic had me working on bikes that were used for road racing in 1981 through 1983 when Campagnolo Super Record was regarded as the preferred component group, for good and bad reasons. The Nuovo Record rear derailleur was resistant to bending and tolerated a lot of abrasion before breaking. Brake levers, same comment. In my view, this durability justifies the less-than-top shifting performance.

Vintage_Cyclist

Those nuts can usually be removed by inserting a small screwdriver blade on an angle into one of the slots and tapping it to turn the bolt. The tool is also available on FleaBay. Also easily fabricated from the proper diameter sized tube and a hacksaw.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20463307813...8AAOSwY8ViKqKe

rekmeyata

That's fine, but I've crashed a lot of bikes in my time and never had any derailleur break; and since I was racing I knew a lot of people too who crashed and burned and yet no damage whatsoever to the derailleurs involved. Of course I'm not saying that such an event never happens, that is why they make breakaway dropouts, but even those breakaway drop outs are not to save the derailleur, but rather to save the rear stays. But regardless breaking or scuffing up a rear derailleur can happen, it's part of crashing. I am talking about road riding, not MTB riding, in MTB riding I've seen a few broken derailleurs from hitting rocks, which is why some people put those crash cages on.

Because of this conversation I decided to look into a bit further as to why the Campy's survived and the Shimano and Suntours would not, it's not toughness of materials I found out. What I found out was on my Tech derailleurs those stick out away from the dropout 3cm, Shimano 600 sticks out 2.8cm, the Nuovo Record sticks out just 2.4cm. So I took my bike with the 600 and laid it down on the pavement, it just barely touches the pavement, it would probably get scuffed up if it was laid down on the derailleur, at that point I didn't need to test the Tech because I could tell it would hit harder and possibly break it, but then I laid down the bike with the Nuovo Record, it just cleared the pavement by about .2 to maybe .1cm, I couldn't measure to see for sure, but as a guess that's what I would think. So I think, and I'm not real bright so my thoughts could be way off, but the survivability of the Nuovo Record is probably due to being a shallower design that it simply avoids most contacts vs other derailleurs. I wonder if Campy designed it that way in case of accidents or was just design luck that it turned out that way?

But since I use to race, to me faster positive shifting was paramount over if the derailleur is going to survive a crash or not. I know back in the day I never heard, or was involved in any discussions about the crash survivability of any particular derailleur, but back then stuff was cheaper percentage wise, meaning even with inflation factored in, then today, so maybe today someone might have that discussion, but not on the pro ranks they won't. There are a lot of things in racing that takes paramount over things that may be logical to do on the non-racing buyer. Most buyers don't have a clue about this stuff anyway, the last thing on their minds is the survivability of a derailleur, heck, they don't even care about the survivability of the bike itself!

Brake levers are going to take a beating in an accident, most people back in my days of racing raced on Campy (people back then frowned very heavily toward Japanese components), those levers got tore up just as badly as non Campy stuff, I saw no difference whatsoever in the degree of damage from brand to another. If the brake lever was going to hit the pavement it was going to get damaged, no if and or but. Most brake levers when hitting the pavement just got scuffed up, because the impact would twist the lever out of the way due to the band slipping on impact, so to find a snapped off lever or a bent one was unusual, scuffed? yes. I had my share of scuffed levers, but never broken or bent one, then we simply loosened the band up a tad and twist it back into position, usually that meant the handlebar twisted a bit as well, but a scuffed up lever didn't keep it from being used again.

I was pretty lucky when I trained and raced, I never went down in a race which is unheard of, all luck of course, but did go down on training rides, mostly due to hitting loose gravel on the road, or a wet road, once from a front blow out going down a mountain on a curve that was fun. Can't recall how many times I've been down but in my whole 50 some odd years of riding, including my racing days, I've only been down about a dozen times, not including 3 or 4 times falling over due to failed track stand attempts, which for some reason I can no longer do, age? About half of my crashes were due to tires losing adhesion, and the other half with cars. I made contact with other riders but never went down, somehow managed to keep it upright, not sure how, they might go down but I stayed upright. LOL!! Even my team captain/coach said I was the luckiest rider he had ever known!