LMaster

Brief backstory. Fat in HS, started running in college to lose weight and ended up enjoying it, enough to take it somewhat serious. Long hip injury a few years ago started riding as way to get some fitness up coming back from that. Liked that, so said let's try the cycling thing for a bit.

Raced a little 2015 and 2016. I think 4 races in 2015 and 8 this year. Would have been more but the whole "poor college student" thing got in the way a bit. Race in Colorado, numbers wise:

67kg, 173cm (5'8")

5" - 15.6 w/kg
30" - 11.3 w/kg
1' - 8.9 w/kg
5' - 5.8 w/kg
20' - 4.9 w/kg
60' - 4.5 w/kg

My question is twofold. One thing that's obvious from the minimal racing I've done is I'm definitely not a particularly intuitive racer, and my cornering is, being as generous as possible, mediocre. When I'm racing I'm basically sitting there thinking "I don't really know what I should do, guess I'll just hang out in the top 5 and try to make sure no breaks go up the road that don't have me".

Colorado has plenty of hilly races, and I've got okay fitness, so by default I've tended to work my way up into the top 5 or better most races, with one win. Went to Cat4 for my last race of the season and same situation there, just with a bigger field. Raced one crit, the rest circuit/road races, and in that crit a similar finish; but had to work my ass off to do it because I was constantly losing decent ground around 2 important corners.

Cornering wise, I no longer lose 6 bike length going through a 90 degree corner at 15mph, but when things actually get fast I can lose some pretty serious position. Aside from that, I'm no longer super nervy in the pack, but I'm definitely not relaxed and able to flow through space in the pack either.

Questionwise:

1) What can/do I need to be do doing to get better at racing, if anything, outside of just racing more (love to do 30+ races next year if money allowed)?

2)The second part of my question is how to use this time trainingwise. The biggest races tend to come in Apr/May, with the summer having a few more crits as well as pure HC races. Not really sure what I should do between now and December when I'd start to build fitness again. I know I want to take last half of Novemeber and week of December of the bike for a nice break.

I also was at a pretty big plateau for most of this season, especially in terms of sustainable and sprint power. My FRC/ability to handle surge/relax/surge/relax and not be dead at the end of the race got better, as did my ability to handle attacks, but from a sustainable power aspect at best I added maybe 5w to my FTP. Not much to show for a year of fairly structured training on 10-12 hours/wk.

3) Weight - I'm not tall at 5'8", and 67kg is on the heavy side for that weight. I'm definitely not lean either. Not fat, but no way I'm under even 12% BF, absolutely no stomach definition and hints of love handles. I could easily stand to lose 3-4kg, and possible as many as 7-8kg, but am not sure to what extend I should focus on this, and how to structure my training if I do so.

Thanks in advance!

hack

Race more. Are you still in college? If so, join the college club and you'd prob race for free. If racing more is out, find the local race rides and smash away. You'll learn a lot with the only investment being your time.

The numbers are irrelevant to some extent. What's your 5s power after a HARD 60s effort while fighting for position at the end of a race? Can you repeat the 5 minute efforts to bridge to a break and then contribute or attack through it? For what it's worth, you've got me beat from 5 minutes through 60 minutes, but I've been able to sneak results here and there using what few strengths I have.

Regarding training and weight ... I'll defer to others.

Wylde06

"heavy"


I can only dream about losing another 50 pounds and being that light.




And to answer your question about getting better at racing...race more.

PepeM

So you've been getting plenty of top 5s and even won a race? I'd say you're doing really well. What do you want, to be able to win each and every race?

carpediemracing 

Your power is very good, at least for flatter stuff. Climbing someone else can chime in.

Weight loss is huge, esp if you have room to lose. And you can lose weight while being poor, not training, etc. Big thing is diet, it's really hard to train yourself light unless your body naturally stays light. I used to be like that, could eat anything, now it's a conscious effort to stay lighter. FOr me about 13-15% BF is realistic for a low number, it's about 70kg on my slightly shorter frame.

Thing is that a now ex-pro told me about 25 years ago that I had to lose weight first, then get fit. I refused to believe him and kept saying that I'll train to get light. Never really happened, I had to be so broke I couldn't afford regular meals before I lost a lot of weight. Then, in 2009, for the first time ever, I consciously went on and stuck to a lower calorie diet. I did whatever it took, ate a lot of low calorie foods like veggies, avoided sugar like mad, avoided fat, and suddenly I went from 183 ("racing weight" in Oct, which was more like 195 early season weight) to 150-155 lbs. I gained a few lbs as I started to train but the following year I felt absolutely unstoppable.

Another huge thing is being comfortable drafting. You should work on bumping (side to side) as well as wheel touching (fore-aft). Bumping is easy and easy to get a hang of, maybe 30-45 minutes tops and it won't seem like a big deal. Touching your front wheel is much harder. Start on grass/dirt, lowest gear, slow, and expect to fall a lot. I can describe more but I really, really, really think being able to touch wheels without falling over is one of the reasons why I can race at such low watts.

Cornering. If you're losing distance in corners you're either slowing too much or you are giving up too much space because you're not drafting. For starting gap see above, "drafting". For gaps that grow as you corner, you want to work on both understanding cornering as well as actually practicing it. When people get nervous they turn in early and brake too hard. Both mortally wound your chances of holding a wheel through a turn. Learn to control the "early turn in" reaction, turn in later, and don't brake as much. I find that being more over the front wheel really helps also, really plants the front wheel.

You can practice cornering lines when walking, pushing a shopping car, pushing a Matchbox car around your desk, driving, riding, even playing Playstation/XBox/whatever. Obviously it's great to practice good cornering on the bike. I'd try to find a very short loop where there's a hard right turn at the bottom of a short hill. This way you can turn every time and you have good speed going into it without killing yourself. The other thing is just racing more and being aware of what you're doing.

Finally, although this goes against poor bike racer stuff, get an action camera and put it on your bike or your helmet. Being able to methodically dissect races after the fact is huge. Small gaps end up huge, huge gaps end up "wtf was I thinking", and close calls are "what was I worried about?".

For me I basically have a (high) number of regular scenarios in my head and when I'm presented with a particular situation I have one or two standard responses to it. Gap out of a corner into the wind, I always do x or y. Tailwind finish, I always to z or a. Narrow set of corners, I always do b or c. Etc. As you accumulate experience in these scenarios they become second nature to you.

furiousferret

I'm the same size as you and 67kg is pretty much my floor; so my guess is weight isn't a limiter. Granted, I carry a lot of upper body mass from the Corps, but still I doubt you can lose more than 2kg.


Best advice I even got for cornering is to accelerate into them.

Your fitness is good and once you get down racecraft, etc you'll get some wins.

gsteinb

I will say this. I raced for years and years and years around 150-152. I said 'I can't really lose much more.' This year I'm 140-142 with no drop off in power. I'm not saying you, or he, can lose more weight. We're not posting photos or doing BF analysis, I just think that based on my experience of myself and other guys there's usually weight that could be lost if one so desired.

topflightpro

I'm at the point weight wise where I know to lose much more, and cut my body fat much more, is going to require a significant diet change, and I am not sure I am disciplined (willing) to commit to that.

mattm

Besides the obvious - racing more, gaining in-pack experience - I think one thing you should do is read up.

When I was injured for a few months years ago, I decided that since I couldn't get physically stronger at the time, I could at least get smarter, so I read a ton of books about race strategy and training.

There are some good books on race tactics, and everyone can learn from them.

Probably the best one:
https://www.amazon.com/Reading-Race-...MDH1FRZTJT5XPJ

Another good one:
https://www.amazon.com/Racing-Tactic.../dp/1931382301

As for training, read the "Training Bible" - it should be required reading, whether you have a coach and/or power meter.

https://www.amazon.com/Cyclists-Trai...DQS5JA011WDXEH

Your numbers are good - don't worry too much about them - work on getting smarter.

furiousferret

Regardless, I'm at 175 after a weird year of not doing much on the bike. I'll be happy just to get in the 150's by race season (January). Maybe I'll hit you up for some advice when I get down to 150.

grolby

What? That's not good advice, that makes no sense at all. If you're accelerating into turns, it's because you're going way too slow between them.

mattm

Maybe better wording is "don't slow down going in to corners, unless you really really need to"

Corner is a tricky thing to describe; I can corner pretty well, but I'm not sure I could teach someone how to corner. Apexes and all that sure, but beyond the basics you just have to figure it out.

LMaster

Awesome, some really good thoughts so far!

Well...that would be nice

But, the idea is I'm not winning every race, which means their are certainly things that can be improved and thus the thread. In my case, it's mostly that I do stuff, but have no idea really if what I am doing is smart, stupid, useless, etc. Basically in most races a bunch of stuff happens, ride hard, end up somewhere, but don't really know why I won or lost. It's seems much different to running where when you lose 99% of the time you just go "ah well, I get it, that guy was a 15:30 guy and I'm a 16:45 guy. Not much I can do".

LMaster

It's probably not a limiter in the sense that I'm losing because I'm getting dropped from being too heavy on hills. But it's definitely a limiter in the sense of trying to get as good as I can get.

I know for certain I can lose more than 2kg, because earlier this winter I got down to 65kg, and was still definitely not to 10% BF (i.e. no signs of visible abs, plenty of pinch-able fat, etc.) let alone the 6-8% that most would consider 'race lean'. I have no doubt I could go to 62-63 kg sustainably. Getting to and being able to maintain +/- 60kg...that I don't know.

My question with the weight loss is more how to do it safely and intelligently. Because of my mindset and the way I eat, the whole eat a little healthier and cut out some junk food method doesn't work well for me. I prefer to weight food and count calories while keeping everything healthy.

The bigger question with weight is how to incorporate the weight loss in with training. Many sources recommend not trying to combine weight loss with decent intensity in training. You'll jeopardize recovery, increase illness chances, and generally feel like crap in workouts. So let's say I want to try to lose 4kg by the time we get to racing season in early April. Should I try and do that fairly quickly right now and maintain? Just ride some easy miles over the next few months and gradually lose the weight then?

Basically just looking for thoughts from people that have been there, done that about how to structure my training so that I don't dig myself into a nasty hole from overdoing it on either side.

furiousferret

Correct, which half the field does in a C4 crit (slow down into corners) and then sprints coming out. A tad more speed helps mitigate power spikes coming out (so long as you have room). Its probably a non issue in p12 races where racers are smooth.

mattm

Smooth but still sketchy AF!

In any field, the trick to cornering is being in the first 10-20 riders (depending on field size), then you don't have to accordion as much if at all.

LMaster

Agree 100% about the diet. Especially with how much I like food and the way I eat, If I upp the training I'll just start dropping more food in. Sometimes I gain weight on my hardest training blocks.

When you talk about lose weight first, and then get fit; do you mean more or less forgetting hard workouts, and just ride your bike some base style while being focused on nailing the calories in/out and diet side?

Awesome thoughts! I'm fairly comfortable with bumping, I'm not going to freak out too much if someone moves into my space a little bit. Not sure I'm ready for it during a sprint, but I guess that's not something you really practice anyway.

Cornering wise, I think it's mostly a practice and confidence thing. I'm a naturally cautious type, and by that I mean the first time descending on a road bike on a local climb here, I was dead last on a 5:00 descent by over 20s on strava...literally averaged 12.6mph down. More often than not it's not that I don't see the line I should take..it's just I'll see the speed we are coming up to a corner and say "nawp, I ain't going in that fast" and touch those brakes enough to start losing the wheel. It's gotten tremendously better, but I still balk a bit when we get near those 45 degree, 1g lean divedomb corners.

The wheel touching I don't know my comfort level on as much. Never tried to practice it, but I could see the value in it, if for no other reason than being more prepared in case some **** hits the fan in a race.

You talk about it from a wattage advantage as well. Do you mean that because you're more comfortable with the potential of touching wheels, you're more comfortable sitting say 1cm off someones back wheel as opposed to sitting back a half wheel length or full wheel length and thus save more energy?

That's brings me to another question. Which is whether or not there is anyway to tell how "efficiently" I'm racing in terms of saving energy. Every single one of my races I've felt there were times I was seriously on the rivet, even if I ended up being one of the strongest in the race.

If I can find the way to do so, I really like the camera idea. I'll definitely keep it in mind!

LMaster

This really seems to help, though I've found in the 4's/5's here that even if I'm 5th or 8th wheel we are frequently sprinting pretty good out of corners. Probably because their are people who are also like me and don't take the corner as quick as others and then have to sprint to close the gap.

globecanvas

When jumping out of corners starts to get desperate I try to remind myself to look through the corner. Physically starting to run out of gas tends to make mental focus deteriorate which makes for tunnel vision which makes you stare at wheels which makes you corner like crap which makes you have to burn more gas out of the corners. Feedback loop.

carpediemracing 

On losing weight - I seem to lose weight best when doing just enough work to burn off the extra calories. If it means just plodding along at 12 mph for an hour on the trainer, so be it. Or 2 hours. I'm definitely more fatigued, less energetic, so it's not like I'm doing 2x20 all day long. However if I feel amped I'll just go and ride hard, whatever I feel like.

Bumping - although you may not practice bumping while you're sprinting, really the basics are the same. Protect hands, forearms, and bars. Allow shoulder and upperbody to absorb bumps, and be ready to bounce off of harder impacts.

Cornering - it's a matter of doing it. In my first race I was apparently pitifully slow in the corners. A frustrated teammate, off the back with me, screamed at me to try and fall over in the turns. I was mad enough to try it. By the end of the race I was cornering hard enough to drop him.

Wheel touching is huge, keeps you upright in many crash situations. I've never seen it described well in any book I've read. "Bounce off the wheel" etc is all BS. You're basically falling through the wheel in front and you need to keep your wheel pointed "forward-ish" in order to stay upright. As soon as your wheel starts to sweep up you're through. Therefore massive grip on the bars (drops are best), push through that other rider's rear wheel. I've survived some massive hits, like I hit my teammate's axle hard enough to lift my back wheel, or put cog marks into my tire casing, etc. I've also fallen, but I probably avoided 10-15 crashes, of which most of them I was closer than I would have been had I not been comfortable touching wheels. My "test", which I don't do much, is to put my tire between the rear derailleur cable and the spokes of the rider in front of me. It gives me about a 3"x3" target area for my front tire, as defined by the housing, cassette, and spokes. I don't do that in races, I've only done it a few times to strangers, and a few times after telling my buddy "hey can you hold a straight line for a bit?".

I save a lot of watts by being close to the wheel in front. Others have described me as riding like I have a magnet in my nose or my front wheel or something. I just follow, follow, follow because if I don't I'm screwed. Even 50 riders back I'm still tight to a wheel, I'm still reading the wind and sheltering to the better side if I can. Bumping, touching wheels, that helps me get closer to others without freaking out.

Efficiency... you should ask other riders what sort of wattage they did in a race. For me it's simple - I can't avg over 200w in a race and still sprint. In the Cat 3, Cat 3-4 races where I do well (granted no real hills) I'm typically averaging 170-190w. (3rd and a hard hill for me), and (2nd).

I'm short on the bike so that helps. I know how to tail gun, i.e. sit at the back. For a real extreme example of tailgunning watch the . One of the faster races I've done, 27.5 mph until I got held up behind a crash, and I avg 175w. I went super hard for 3/4 lap after the crash so the Missus wouldn't get worried that I didn't show up for a while, I did something like 250w and avg 24 mph. Watch the Cat 3 race - I did about 190w and couldn't sprint, too cooked.

LMaster

Haha granted just about every race I have ever done has been somewhere between "undulating" and downright hilly, but I think the lowest I've ever done is like 210-220w. And all of those have come out to NP between 260-315.

The one crit I did came out to 262w, 317w NP. Was like 25 minutes though, but with a nasty 40" kicker in it around 8% that everybody was doing 450w+ up it each time.

Would be pretty awesome to learn to sit on enough in flatter races to keep power down below 200w. Hard to imagine that wouldn't make a massive difference in terms of energy left to spend at the end.

Ygduf

I was busy today and don't have time for this thread. I'm sure @mattm said somewhere in here "race more" and that is 1000% the best way to improve. Improve on strategy, on know-how, on power, etc.

When I joined this forum there was a dude, "racing is my training" was his signature. He was and is right.

mattm

Actually a few others beat me to it, but yeah.

Racing more is basically the answer to everything!

LMaster

This is more or less what I have been told, and what I plan to do to the extent that money allows.

I guess this thread might have been better titled "What can I do to get better at racing during the offseason/winter" when there aren't races.

Doge

Don't think this was mentioned, but how much rest do you get between workouts and how much do you sleep? Esp younger male types can get stronger resting a bit more.