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Origami Swift - Thoughts, Ideas For a New Version of a Classic

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Origami Swift - Thoughts, Ideas For a New Version of a Classic

Old 03-07-22, 09:50 AM
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joey buzzard
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Origami Swift - Thoughts, Ideas For a New Version of a Classic

Pinigis from Origami has said that he's working with the original designer of the Swift folder, Peter Reich on a new iteration of this awesome bike. He says he doesn't want to be accused of "advertising" his own product on Bike Forums by starting this thread, so I'm going to do it instead. There's already been a couple of great discusons about this design over the years which I'll post links to for those who want to revisit or read up on these.. In the meantime, any and all feedback and discussion welcome. Let's give them some great feedback!

​​​​​​-------------+-----------------------------------+--------------------------+
(Edited in as promised, but many hours later - links to other Swift threads to keep these handy for anyone interested to revisit, reference or read these)


Swift thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/83711-swift-folders.html

Titanium Swift thread:
https://www.bikeforums.net/folding-bikes/930714-titanium-swift-frame-anyone-interested.html

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Old 03-07-22, 10:26 AM
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We already know chromoly frame for now. It would be nice if hydraulic disc brakes, 9 or 10 speed, spacing for 2.0" tires (50-406 etrto).
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Old 03-07-22, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by BikeLite View Post
We already know chromoly frame for now. It would be nice if hydraulic disc brakes, 9 or 10 speed, spacing for 2.0" tires (50-406 etrto).
Peter is not sold on disc brakes, but I am, so it is likely that we will use hydraulic disc brakes to allow for either 406 or 451 wheels. I am looking at 10 speeds initially, but we could revise that up or down as needed.

I am looking at options for straight, bullhorn, and drop bars, but would be interested to hear what folks prefer.
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Old 03-07-22, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Peter is not sold on disc brakes, but I am, so it is likely that we will use hydraulic disc brakes to allow for either 406 or 451 wheels. I am looking at 10 speeds initially, but we could revise that up or down as needed.

I am looking at options for straight, bullhorn, and drop bars, but would be interested to hear what folks prefer.

​​​​Personally I'm a fan of the flat bars that came stock on my Xootr. When I first got the bike I thought that I'd quickly replace these with drops or bullhorns, but came to appreciate flat bar simplicity. These I realised took up less space in my small apartment. Also, it was a revelation coming from a road bike that shifters and brake levers could be so affordable when compared with brifters. I like your thinking though,.Pingus. Drops and bullhorns are usually found on bikes designed and marketed for their performance and it's my personal opinion that the Swift's excellent performance should be emphasized when plugging the bike. It has utility, but ultimately to me it's an elegantly simple machine that rides beautifully like its name implies, Swift. I guess giving the customer the option to choose their bar configuration might add expense to the bike?

I think Peter likes horizontal dropouts. It might be because he's fond of internal geared hubs? I always use a derailleur system myself. I did a lot of climbing last Friday afternoon and ended up at a spot more than 1300 meters (4000 feet+) ;higher than where I started the ride. It was cold high up on the mountain and the way I came down involved an initial steep descent of nearly a thousand meters over 8 kilometers of mostly unpaved track. My poor frozen fingers hurt and the tendons and muscles in my forearms got very sore from braking. So I'm looking forward to trying out a version of the Swift with hydraulic disc brakes. I also tend to wear out my rims fairly quickly from braking which has proven to be a pain in this new world of disrupted supply chains, etc. It took me a lot of searching to find a decent BMX rim with 28h that I could pair with a road bike hub. So thumbs up from me for discs.

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Old 03-07-22, 01:31 PM
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The stock handlebars were fine. I changed mine out. At one point I added a riser extender quill. Somehow it is now stuck in there, making my bars a little too high. But I am changing them to some with a rise that I can invert. The only criticism of the bike I have is that the bottom bracket is high. Running it with Big Apple tires, I found only on kickstand that can adjust to its height. I am not sure why they made the BB so high.
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Old 03-07-22, 02:59 PM
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I love cafe racer style bars, like Soma Sparrows upside down. The benefit of drop bars with no drawbacks imo. I'd say just offer 2 options, drop and straight. We can change out the straight setup easily enough to our preferences.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta View Post
The stock handlebars were fine. I changed mine out. At one point I added a riser extender quill. Somehow it is now stuck in there, making my bars a little too high. But I am changing them to some with a rise that I can invert. The only criticism of the bike I have is that the bottom bracket is high. Running it with Big Apple tires, I found only on kickstand that can adjust to its height. I am not sure why they made the BB so high.
Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't really thought about the height of the bottom bracket on the original, but I was going to put it at 11" with 20 x 1.75 tires. I will have to see how high the originals were.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by joey buzzard View Post
​​​​Personally I'm a fan of the flat bars that came stock on my Xootr. When I first got the bike I thought that I'd quickly replace these with drops or bullhorns, but came to appreciate flat bar simplicity. These I realised took up less space in my small apartment. Also, it was a revelation coming from a road bike that shifters and brake levers could be so affordable when compared with brifters. I like your thinking though,.Pingus. Drops and bullhorns are usually found on bikes designed and marketed for their performance and it's my personal opinion that the Swift's excellent performance should be emphasized when plugging the bike. It has utility, but ultimately to me it's an elegantly simple machine that rides beautifully like its name implies, Swift. I guess giving the customer the option to choose their bar configuration might add expense to the bike?

I think Peter likes horizontal dropouts. It might be because he's fond of internal geared hubs? I always use a derailleur system myself. I did a lot of climbing last Friday afternoon and ended up at a spot more than 1300 meters (4000 feet+) ;higher than where I started the ride. It was cold high up on the mountain and the way I came down involved an initial steep descent of nearly a thousand meters over 8 kilometers of mostly unpaved track. My poor frozen fingers hurt and the tendons and muscles in my forearms got very sore from braking. So I'm looking forward to trying out a version of the Swift with hydraulic disc brakes. I also tend to wear out my rims fairly quickly from braking which has proven to be a pain in this new world of disrupted supply chains, etc. It took me a lot of searching to find a decent BMX rim with 28h that I could pair with a road bike hub. So thumbs up from me for discs.
I am glad that people like the flat bar because I will make that the standard. Bull, and drop, bars will be available.
I am not a big fan of the IGH, I just can't seem to justify the cost and the weight, but I will consider them as well.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:25 PM
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+1 for IGH hub availability.

The ability to have all the gears minus the risk of bending a hanger or something while the bike fell over 'cause the bus driver stopped hard or whatever is a huge bonus.

A simple Nexus 7 or Alfine 8 with a roller brake & long reach brake levers would be the bees-knees...if a bit heavy. But for a 1-2 mile ride to a bus stop it doesn't actually matter except at point of sale.

Sturmey is offering CS-RK3 disc brake 8,9,10 speed cassette freehub, 3speed hubs. Ideal for folders in the same manner as SRAM Dual Drives used to be.

The option of an IGH is a powerful one.

Please no freewheels.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:48 PM
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I hope you keep the original Swift's concept of using off the shelf bike parts where possible (100/135 hubs for example). Hopefully a normal 1-1/8" external headset, the Swift's 1-1/4" is hard to find now.

More tire clearance would always be nice.

I know I'm in the minority, but I really prefer rim brakes on a folding bike. It's just less to go wrong when folding, simpler, lighter, etc. But I expect it's hard for companies not named "Rivendell" to sell rim brakes in 2022.

And I said in another thread, I would love to see a larger size. I have to use a 130mm stem and a bar with some forward sweep to get comfortable on my Swift. But, I'm 6'3".

I like steel bikes, but the aluminum Swift rides decently and is presumably lighter and cheaper.

And +1 to Schwinnsta's comment about the oddly high bottom bracket of the current Swift. It should come down some.
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Old 03-07-22, 03:52 PM
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One additional criticism of my Swift is the horizontal rear drop out. Running 2" tires meant using Surly Monkey nuts. I know you don't have to have them, but they make life easier. Also, if you'e running fenders, you have to go to extra lengths to assure you are able to pull out your wheel without removing the fenders. You can find workarounds, but are the horizontal dropouts worth it?
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Old 03-07-22, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta View Post
One additional criticism of my Swift is the horizontal rear drop out. Running 2" tires meant using Surly Monkey nuts. I know you don't have to have them, but they make life easier. Also, if you'e running fenders, you have to go to extra lengths to assure you are able to pull out your wheel without removing the fenders. You can find workarounds, but are the horizontal dropouts worth it?

Personally, I'm a huge fan of the Swift. I'm glad to see someone get it back into production.
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Old 03-07-22, 07:09 PM
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pinigis

question is for pinigis. are there shipping charges on the bikes you sell? thanks, jdogg
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Old 03-07-22, 08:30 PM
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looking forward to seeing a picture......
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Old 03-08-22, 04:12 AM
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On top of an IGH, would it be possible to design in a splittable frame for belt drive? There was an iteration of the Swift design that incorporated such a feature. Can't link to the page since I just joined the forum, but a quick search on Google for "Jurien's titanium folding small wheeler" should return it as the top hit. Alternatively, it's also discussed under the Titanium Swift thread in this forum.

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Old 03-08-22, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Schwinnsta View Post
One additional criticism of my Swift is the horizontal rear drop out. Running 2" tires meant using Surly Monkey nuts. I know you don't have to have them, but they make life easier. Also, if you'e running fenders, you have to go to extra lengths to assure you are able to pull out your wheel without removing the fenders. You can find workarounds, but are the horizontal dropouts worth it?
I agree that vertical dropouts make more sense, unless you have an IGH.
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Old 03-08-22, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jdogg111 View Post
question is for pinigis. are there shipping charges on the bikes you sell? thanks, jdogg
We charge a flat rate of $39 per order (regardless of the number of bikes) for any location in the contiguous 48 states. We calculate specific rates for Alaska, Hawaii, Canada, PR, and APO addresses.
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Old 03-08-22, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by speedyg0nz View Post
On top of an IGH, would it be possible to design in a splittable frame for belt drive? There was an iteration of the Swift design that incorporated such a feature. Can't link to the page since I just joined the forum, but a quick search on Google for "Jurien's titanium folding small wheeler" should return it as the top hit. Alternatively, it's also discussed under the Titanium Swift thread in this forum.
It is possible, but no longer necessary with the advent of splittable belts instead.
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Old 03-08-22, 08:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinigis View Post
Thanks for the feedback. I hadn't really thought about the height of the bottom bracket on the original, but I was going to put it at 11" with 20 x 1.75 tires. I will have to see how high the originals were.

Just to give you a diffent take on the Xootr Swift's high BB height - I don't feel strongly about it, but I kinda like it.

A few months prior to acquiring my Swift I had a nasty crash on my road bike while taking a corner at high speed. As I was leaning into the curve while pedaling one of the pedals struck the asphalt. It was abrupt and scary and I suffered a mild concussion from the whiplash force as a result (I didn't hit my head). This trauma was still fresh enough in my mind when I got the Swift that I immediately noticed that a similar crash would be nearly impossible riding the new bike given its generous pedal clearance. In fact (knock on wood) I haven't had a single serious crash in the five years since a Swift became my main ride. I'm very confident in the bike's safety.

That said, I imagine a lower BB height would possibly lower the centre of gravity on the bike giving it better handling characteristics? That would actually be nice. Seems it might also improve aerodynamics, no? Anybody please feel free to jump in and expand on the pros and cons of lowering the BB height. I don't care that much about it, but I thought I'd give a counterpoint and it's an interesting aspect to discuss.

On another topic, a rear derailleur seems to me the way forward for this bike. While an IGH does have some advantages, these are heavier, less efficient and more expensive. A derailleur is simpler and easier to replace. The Swift to my thinking should be much more an everyman's answer to a Bike Friday Pocket Rocket or a Tyrrell than a direct competitor to the Dahon Boardwalk. There seems to me plenty of variety when it comes to utility focused folding bikes already on the market. Much less so for folders aimed at delivering high performance. I think that the default Swift should focus on being nimble and fast, yet relatively affordable. I just can't think of a single road racing bike that uses an IGH over a derailleur and to me that's what a Swift is.

Do you have a copy of the Alu-Swift of your own, Pingus? Have you had any experience with riding this bike? If you haven't maybe good to get your hands on one and see what your own thoughts are?

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Old 03-08-22, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by joey buzzard View Post
Just to give you a diffent take on the Xootr Swift's high BB height - I don't feel strongly about it, but I kinda like it.

A few months prior to acquiring my Swift I had a nasty crash on my road bike while taking a corner at high speed. As I was leaning into the curve while pedaling one of the pedals struck the asphalt. It was abrupt and scary and I suffered a mild concussion from the whiplash force as a result (I didn't hit my head). This trauma was still fresh enough in my mind when I got the Swift that I immediately noticed that a similar crash would be nearly impossible riding the new bike given its generous pedal clearance. In fact (knock on wood) I haven't had a single serious crash in the five years since a Swift became my main ride. I'm very confident in the bike's safety.

That said, I imagine a lower BB height would possibly lower the centre of gravity on the bike giving it better handling characteristics? That would actually be nice. Seems it might also improve aerodynamics, no? Anybody please feel free to jump in and expand on the pros and cons of lowering the BB height. I don't care that much about it, but I thought I'd give a counterpoint and it's an interesting aspect to discuss.

On another topic, a rear derailleur seems to me the way forward for this bike. While an IGH does have some advantages, these are heavier, less efficient and more expensive. A derailleur is simpler and easier to replace. The Swift to my thinking should be much more an everyman's answer to a Bike Friday Pocket Rocket or a Tyrrell than a direct competitor to the Dahon Boardwalk. There seems to me plenty of variety when it comes to utility focused folding bikes already on the market. Much less so for folders aimed at delivering high performance. I think that the default Swift should focus on being nimble and fast, yet relatively affordable. I just can't think of a single road racing bike that uses an IGH over a derailleur and to me that's what a Swift is.

Do you have a copy of the Alu-Swift of your own, Pingus? Have you had any experience with riding this bike? If you haven't maybe good to get your hands on one and see what your own thoughts are?
I have never had the pleasure of riding a Swift. Anyone in Virginia have one?
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Old 03-08-22, 10:10 AM
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I'd like a lower step over. I tested a Swift before I bought a Bike Friday and the higher step over was one reason I went with BF but I'm under 5'5". I'm also a fan on standardized parts, I have a bucketload of them, and like the ability to tweak my bikes based on what I want, not just what is available from a proprietary manufacturer. I like 1x derailleur systems because they're easy to maintain and easy to get fixed anywhere in the world. While IGH and belt drives etc.,are all. wonderful advancements, they make it harder to deal with and get parts when traveling. There's a reason BF is so popular in Asian countries, it's super easy to mod them. The beauty of the Swift imo is the frame design. Being able to mod as you wish on that seems key to me. There's a massive thread on here that bears this out, too.
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Old 03-08-22, 02:20 PM
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OTOH, one thing I really like about my Swift is that when I stop, the bike will rest against my inner leg and not fall over. My BF falls over every time.

This sounds kind of trivial, but it really does make a big difference for me in day to day riding.

Originally Posted by linberl View Post
I'd like a lower step over. I tested a Swift before I bought a Bike Friday and the higher step over was one reason I went with BF but I'm under 5'5". I'm also a fan on standardized parts, I have a bucketload of them, and like the ability to tweak my bikes based on what I want, not just what is available from a proprietary manufacturer. I like 1x derailleur systems because they're easy to maintain and easy to get fixed anywhere in the world. While IGH and belt drives etc.,are all. wonderful advancements, they make it harder to deal with and get parts when traveling. There's a reason BF is so popular in Asian countries, it's super easy to mod them. The beauty of the Swift imo is the frame design. Being able to mod as you wish on that seems key to me. There's a massive thread on here that bears this out, too.
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Old 03-08-22, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
OTOH, one thing I really like about my Swift is that when I stop, the bike will rest against my inner leg and not fall over. My BF falls over every time.

This sounds kind of trivial, but it really does make a big difference for me in day to day riding.
It's those sorts of things that one never considers in the design process. Thank you!
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Old 03-08-22, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by seat_boy View Post
OTOH, one thing I really like about my Swift is that when I stop, the bike will rest against my inner leg and not fall over. My BF falls over every time.

This sounds kind of trivial, but it really does make a big difference for me in day to day riding.
Never happened with mine, it's all about learning where to put your leg and hip, lol.
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Old 03-08-22, 06:48 PM
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I know this thread is about reviving the Swift, but I happened to come across the Fubi Fixie page where they are looking to sell/partner with someone. Not sure if it's something that Pinigis might be interested in. Text below copied from their website.

The company that has developed the bike has gotten into problems due to Covid and other reasons. We are looking for a partner who can manufacture and distribute the bike. In the meantime we will change direction and develop the frame into a high end carbon fiber or Titanium folding frame, focusing on low volume production. The team behind the bike are willing to sell the patents and work together with the new owner to finalize the project.
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