Kekec1965

Bought the frameset some time ago and moved to my house abroad so no access to it at present to check for a serial number stamped on non-drive rear dropout (5238- see second image). Originated in Switzerland so it could be Swiss....on another hand it could be French or Italian or even British, considering it had double fluted BSA crankset. Nice enough lugs, not that shabby fork crown either. Not on pair with some of the better British builders like Ephgrave etc., but quality craftmanship never-the-less in my opinion.

Would love to know who and when made it. Perhaps appropriate to first ask our resident master of knowledge juvela considering if Swiss, could perhaps even be a Juvela?

John E

If the fixed BB cup is RH (regular clockwise) threaded, you can rule out French and Italian. They didn't start to get BB threading right (or should I say, left?) until the very late 1970s. Swiss or British would of course most likely be left-threaded.

juvela

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thank you for the ill-merited vote of confidence

serial placement would tend to rule out Allegro, Cilo, Juvela & Mondia as possible parents

you have likely already visited the CH cycle site here

Swiss Bicycles | A website about Swiss Bicycles

headset appears to be EDCO which certainly tends to be confirmatory of CH origin

have you ever had occasion to measure headset threading, bottom bracket threading, tube diameters?

ever make an exploration for tubing markings? are there any showing on steerer?

suspect bottom bracket assembly may be from EDCO as well
its adjustable cup wears an "F" marking, presumably for France/Francaise

since you and frame be residents of differing nation states we are limited for visual information to the images already posted, at least for the present

conceivable crown might be a Georg Fischer pattern, but do not recognize it
crowns from this maker are sometimes marked "GF+" on the underside

possible that the long point on the lateral side may be an addition from the frame maker

from what can be seen in images provided blades appear to be oval rather than the round one might expect on a pure track machine

this combined with the drilling of the seat stay bridge tends to support the idea that frame designed for multi-use rather than track only

drilling of crown appears "factory" rather than something done post-manufacture which makes one think the builder or customer wanted something suitable for a training application rather than a pure track machine

here are two Georg Fischer road pattern crown images -





if rear spacing unaltered you may discover it to be one ten

preliminary date estimate 1957

other readers far more knowledgeable shall be along shortly with some solid observations for you


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unworthy1

I see some details reminiscent of Sieber, but not a certain match, especially the serial number location (Siebers are generally on the seat lug, top LH side). But from what I can see this sure does look Swiss, BB threading would probably confirm as would OD of the main tubes (metric).

juvela

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had a Sieber distaffer come through which was able to date with the help of "Il Grillo" to 1947-1948

the machine went to R. Brian Baylis who said he wanted it for his missus

was fitted with the earliest Giostra bits have had come by way of the workshop

Sieber related to Cino Cinelli by marriage - it is either the case that Sieber married Cino's sister or Cino married Sieber's sister - me auld "braine" can never recall which way that one goes...


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Kekec1965

Fabolous juvela, I knew you'd come trumps with more details than even previous owner. Much obliged.

I will of course do all the necessary inspection once I re-unite with the frameset, but in the meantime and according to seller, rear spacing is 117mm, so I suspect it was re-spaced, again will check for signs when I get my hands on it.

Swiss made and dating makes it spot on to me too.

Thanks to all again.

juvela

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as regards specific marques -

here on the western side o' the wee puddle we have only had organized import of the marques Allegro, Cilo & Juvela/Mondia afaik

the other marques mentioned at the Swiss Bicycles web site are largely unknown here

suspect the subject machine will turn out to be one of them...

as an example we had a discussion thread on a Mairag product not too long ago
it generated comments such as "wow, another new-to-me badge!" from readers

sorry to not have any more solid information for you

btw -

on a bit of a side note here is a page from an EDCO brochure of 1954 -




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obrentharris 

Nice bike! I'm impressed with the long track ends which would allow a flip flop hub with more than a one or two tooth difference between the two sides.
The red lug lining with the gold halo around it certainly seems in keeping with the Swiss penchant for paint fades.
Brent

jdawginsc 

What is the small braze-on at the bottom bracket shell? Grease port?

zukahn1 

Interesting that it has old type oil fitting on the drive side of the BB.

juvela

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in the only drive side image which has been posted the cycle's chainset does a fine job of blocking the view of the drive side of the shell

the one closeup image given of the shell shows its non-drive side -



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Lamont Cobb

I'll bet that you could still use that bike on the track. I don't know how much of a disadvantage (= aero) it would have against modern bikes.

Kekec1965

I'm sure you can and I'm sure I will pop round to my local (foreign) velodrome. it ain't aero issue, more the weight of it vs modern carbon

Kekec1965

Re-united with the frame. Quick update:
1. serial number on dropout is actually 1205 on the fork steerer 205 and on the fork crown looks like 1205, but it is possible that it was drilled later as number 2 is not visible
2. it has BSA bottom bracket LH threaded
3. seat post says 25.8mm
4. repaint possible as some red appears under blue and base coat missing too

some more pics

juvela

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thank you for the additional information and imagery

national origin as yet unclear

we are now at fifteen messages and still no word as to the rudimentary specification of tubing diameters

presence of "BSA bottom bracket" doth mean not necessarily that shell be so threaded

should you reach a point where you are satisfied frame could not be of CH origin you might wish to explore neighbouring products

the soft-edged trim exhibited on the finish is "usually" a sign indicating origin in a germanic nation

so if not CH then one would immediately think of AT & of DE, with DK a third possibility

red layer of paint visible may be a primer layer rather than a finish layer; it was a common primer colour at one epoch - sometimes referred to as "red lead"

OTOH the lubrication fitting on the bottom bracket shell has been painted over
usually such fittings are not mounted until after painting at the OEM level and they typically come with a finish of their own whether black oxide or bare brass

so the paint here could be seen as confirmatory of a respray

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had been hoping we might have received a visit from one of our framebuilder members to assist with lug pattern identification

such id might possibly advance the enquiry...

it could be such an avenue as one looks at the products of neighbouring lands...


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unworthy1

these two points are more mystifying (to me)
2. it has BSA bottom bracket LH threaded (Certainly appears that the BB unit is British given the "chain side" on the DS cup, but even in the '40s would a Swiss maker use British threading?)
3. seat post says 25.8mm (that's either a VERY thick-walled seat tube, OR there's a shim in the top of that tube, OR it's metric, in which case....Swiss is more likely but with that BB?)

Also just looked at the lugs and BB shell and got me wondering: are those EKLA products? Or Oscar Egg?