iab

Hell of a bike. Great example of an early SC. It could be as early as 1951, but it could be later too. Dating something based on components isn't ideal. The dropouts are your best clue. But I believe the 1010 with the 4mm screw was used until 1953. At least i know of a claimed 1953 Marastoni with the 4mm screws.

If the wheels are original, FB stamped a date on their cones, not the lock nut.

rando_couche

Oh. wow.

Internal brake cabling in 1951?!?!? I had no idea...

SP
OC, OR

bibliobob

Bike of the year, no doubt! Grail bike, for sure. Congrats!

Shaneferd

Love the bell, a real humdinger.
May the fitting parts come available at all the right moments.

iab

I'd go with bike of the decade. Especially it it is a '51.

kylarr

While dropouts with 4 mm screws did exist later I believe that these dropouts were made specifically for this derailleur and were gone by 1952. The reason I think that is because the stop on the dropout is farther around the pivot than with later examples and this derailleur is the only one to have a stop set screw. So a derailleur that was made for a very limited time in early 1951 and the dropout to match are what I am basing my claim on.

If you go to a previous post where I linked to a Jan Heine article you can see the change in dropouts between the 51-1 and 52-1 timeframe, the bulge goes away.

I am having trouble finding information on the dates associated with the front dropouts. I know that the longer neck on the fender eyelets is a clue and that these are early I just cant find specifics.

Thanks for the tip on the FB hubs. The front is an FB and I will dig into it in the next few days to look for a date.

kylarr

I have seen bike from a few makers with it in the early fifties. As I understand it, there came a belief that brazing in the middle of the tubes would significantly weaken the frame and thats why clamp ons were the norm for so long.

dbakl

Holy WOW! Is that the first Gran Sport rear?

iab

The thing that is gray to me is the Marastoni claim of 1953. Maybe it is from 1951 also. According to Chuck Schmidt's Campagnolo timeline,

KonAaron Snake 

+1 - a lot of members here have some nice bikes, but this is just incredible. I haven't seen too many bikes here truly worthy of being called a grail, but this one is. I can't believe someone half assed shipping this.

iab

Interesting how beliefs change. Internal cable routing was used in the 30s, 40s and 50s, possibly into the 20s. Decades of use and all of a sudden they are "bad".

martl

This Automoto is from the 1930ies - lugless, internal routing, the works.

kylarr

Yes, at least it is the first iteration of the production ones. There is still that mythical two cable prototype supposedly out there somewhere.

Thank you for that. My understanding is clearer now. I thought for some reason that all of the early campy dropouts with the slot in the screw end instead of the cap had 4 mm screws.

Thank you for the kind words. The sting of the shipping and the broken screws has pretty much worn off and I am just happy that it came. so much could have gone wrong and considering that I paid by international wire transfer, there was not much I could do.

Here is the tracking (It was a bad 26 days):

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD]Wed, 27.11.2013 17:03 clock[/TD]
[TD]-[/TD]
[TD]The order data for this shipment have been electronically transmitted from the sender to DHL.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wed, 27.11.2013 17:44 clock[/TD]
[TD]Germany[/TD]
[TD]The consignment was sent by the sender in the store.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Thu, 28.11.2013 19:40 clock[/TD]
[TD]Bornicke, Germany[/TD]
[TD]The overseas shipment has been processed in the parcel center start.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sat, 30.11.2013 05:59 clock[/TD]
[TD]Saulheim, Germany[/TD]
[TD]The international shipment has been processed in the export parcel center.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Wed, 04.12.2013 07:36 clock[/TD]
[TD]IPZ-Ffm, Germany[/TD]
[TD]The show will be transported to the destination country and there handed over to the delivery organization. (Website / Online Tracking[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Mon, 30.12.2013 09:56 clock[/TD]
[TD]USA[/TD]
[TD]The program was successfully delivered.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

martl

heh painful - but works both ways - A box from Rivendell once took 7 weeks to reach me in Germany...

bloom87

aero routing + criterium geo in 1951 ?! haha

Gary Fountain

I must admit, when I first read this thread I couldn't add my '2 cents worth'. Your seller/postal experience left me cold. I'm so glad it's safely in your hands now. Such a special bicycle. Thanks for your tale and photos. Great thread.

kylarr

Here are some slightly better pictures. The light was better today and the color came through a bit more correctly. I really need to get a proper camera.

IMG_0380 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0389 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0382 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0393 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0356 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0396 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0397 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0399 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0373 by lelandgibson, on Flickr


IMG_0400 by lelandgibson, on Flickr

I also realize that I forgot to do a full rundown on the parts it came with.

Brakes- Altenburger
Levers- Weinmann
Seatpost- ttt
Saddle- brooks B-17 champion narrow
Bars- Maes
Stem- ???
Front hub- FB Brevete
Rear hub- Prior
Rims- 80's Mavic clinchers
Crankset- FB
Bottom bracket- Magistroni 70mm
Pedals- Lyotard Berthet
Derailleur/shifter- Gran Sport
Chain/ freewheel- ???

repechage

I am going to have to double check the dropouts on my 50's bike. I don't remember the pivot stop being at "4 o'clock"... I have to double check the text too, I remember BrevO but the CAMPAGNOLO text may be different. That frame has the 4mm screws.

kylarr

Yeah, I also like ideas keep getting recycled as new. I remember when I was still big into mountain biking five or six years ago and thinking that the Hammerschmidt two speed crank was on the cutting edge only to recently realize while reading that Dancing Chain that it had been done at least once many decades ago.

That is a great bike. I am glad I haven't gotten into the old french stuff. That is a rabbit hole that I might not be able to get back out of.

I would like to see pictures. I am still a bit hazy on the early dropout development. I wish that the lettering on my dropouts were clearer, I would like to compare it to other dropouts.

Citoyen du Monde

I can state with absolute certainty that the 4 mm adjusting screws were sold by Campagnolo at least until 1953. I base this on numerous 1953 Bianchi bikes being sold with them. I have however never seen a 1954 Bianchi with them, so it is my inference that 1953 was the last year that Campagnolo sold them (some small builders may still have had a few sets left after this date, but apparently all industrial builders,as well as major wholesalers like Cinelli, did not use them beyond 1953). I know of no frame that has been confirmed to predate 1951 to have the 4 mm dropouts. As for the placement of the stop, I wouldn't necessarily place too much weight on this as the framebuilder Valsassina at Cinelli always fashioned the drop-outs to his personal style before they were chromed. He could therefore have fashioned them any way that he saw fit, especially if a client had asked for drop-outs to match a particular derailleur. You can see that he has "squared off" the dropouts and lightened them. The more important feature for me is the lack of the spring mounting hole which I believe to have been added in 1952 (no certainty here, see photo below of my fully original 1953 bike that has date coded parts and has been cross-checked in the builder's log books)

It is guaranteed that the bike was not exported as a complete bike from Italy. It was almost assuredly shipped as a frame/fork/headset. Cinelli would not have shipped one of his bikes without the corresponding bars and stems, which were his primary products and the main source of income for Cinelli in 1951. Likewise, he would not have fitted the prior hub, or even the FB for that matter as he already had "Cinelli" branded hubs made for him by FB/Campagnolo. Cinelli also had Cinelli branded Magistroni cranks that would not have been an additional cost item, so the plain Magistroni cranks too would have been added by somebody other than Cinelli Milan. My guess is that the frame was built in very late 1951 or 1952 and was shipped to one of the many Cinelli dealers in Germany where it was subsequently built up. My own personal guess is that it was first built in 1952. I suggest this as the Milan show was held every two years in odd years, hence fall 1951, so even if the order was placed at the show, it more than likely would not have arrived before year end in Germany. Another thing that one must keep in mind is that it took time for the launch of the Gran Sport derailleur to reach foreign markets and even longer before the man in the street became aware of its existence. Lastly, if you look over the last decade you will see that 1951 Gran Sport derailleurs are substantially more common than 1952 Gran Sport derailleurs (perhaps a ratio of even 10 to 1), this is due to Campagnolo needing to initially fill the delivery pipeline before they could sell them and once the pipeline was filled it took some time before the product actually sold. So many shops that were convinced to stock the derailleurs would have 1951 stock and then would not restock until perhaps 1953-54. They would therefore have asked Cinelli to supply the dropouts to suit the derailleurs that they had in stock.

As for the internal brake cable routing, as already mentioned, this was "normal" for the time.

All told a fantastic find that deserves some additional attention to make it totally exceptional. It is a pity that the shipment didn't meet up to your expectations but in the end the only thing that really counts is the end result and apparently there was no damage (pity about the dent caused by the set screw of the bell)

Citoyen du Monde

another little note. the mudguard eyelets on the front dropouts resemble those on a bike that I have tentatively dated as having been built between that 1948-1950.

bloom87

first "FB" crankset i've seen. campagnolo did make a steel one, but not cottered.

iab

If this is the case, should the timeline change for the fastback stays and full sloping fork crown? Both features currently are at 1953. This would take it back to 52.

iab

FB was around long before Campagnolo.

bloom87

do you know why it has the same logo as gipiemme ?