Did I just eff up my 11-speed chain?
06-01-12, 04:45 PM
#76
Senior Member
Take a close look at the outerplates at the end of a new 10 or 11 speed chain. They look untouched to me. This concept has been used by Campy since the year 2000, when they introduced 10 speed. Their chains have had a pair of plates with "virgin" holes since that time and they are the only ones that should EVER be used to join a 10 speed chain.
It's also one of the reasons that 10 speed chains CAN NOT be rejoined with just a new joining pin. Those pins rely on the virgin holes on the outer plates. Campy sells a short length of chain with those virgin outer plates on both ends and TWO joining pins. That's the only approved method of rejoining a Campy 10 chain.
The only reason that they allow an 11 speed chain to rejoined after a pin is pushed through the chain is due to the new joining pin design that gets the end flared-out for more holding power.
06-01-12, 06:05 PM
#77
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Not at all.
Take a close look at the outerplates at the end of a new 10 or 11 speed chain. They look untouched to me. This concept has been used by Campy since the year 2000, when they introduced 10 speed. Their chains have had a pair of plates with "virgin" holes since that time and they are the only ones that should EVER be used to join a 10 speed chain.
It's also one of the reasons that 10 speed chains CAN NOT be rejoined with just a new joining pin. Those pins rely on the virgin holes on the outer plates. Campy sells a short length of chain with those virgin outer plates on both ends and TWO joining pins. That's the only approved method of rejoining a Campy 10 chain.
The only reason that they allow an 11 speed chain to rejoined after a pin is pushed through the chain is due to the new joining pin design that gets the end flared-out for more holding power.
Take a close look at the outerplates at the end of a new 10 or 11 speed chain. They look untouched to me. This concept has been used by Campy since the year 2000, when they introduced 10 speed. Their chains have had a pair of plates with "virgin" holes since that time and they are the only ones that should EVER be used to join a 10 speed chain.
It's also one of the reasons that 10 speed chains CAN NOT be rejoined with just a new joining pin. Those pins rely on the virgin holes on the outer plates. Campy sells a short length of chain with those virgin outer plates on both ends and TWO joining pins. That's the only approved method of rejoining a Campy 10 chain.
The only reason that they allow an 11 speed chain to rejoined after a pin is pushed through the chain is due to the new joining pin design that gets the end flared-out for more holding power.
If the latter is the case, wouldn't this agree with Rob's assertion, i.e. that the virgin hole sizing for 11s chain is indeed identical to the hole size left when pushing a peened rivet out?
06-02-12, 04:31 PM
#78
Senior Member
So Dave are you saying that Campy revised their chain joining procedure from 10s to 11s? Short sections of 11s chain with two virgin end plates and two replacement pins are no longer available for 11s chains? Instead...likely in an effort to conserve cost, Campy revised their procedure to no longer offer the short chain section for 11s chains such that their revised pin design can now be used in 'non virgin' holes where a previous peened rivet was pushed through?
If the latter is the case, wouldn't this agree with Rob's assertion, i.e. that the virgin hole sizing for 11s chain is indeed identical to the hole size left when pushing a peened rivet out?
If the latter is the case, wouldn't this agree with Rob's assertion, i.e. that the virgin hole sizing for 11s chain is indeed identical to the hole size left when pushing a peened rivet out?
All it means is the flared end of the new joining pin provides enough strength to allow it's use in a hole that's had a pin pushed through it, whereas the old style that relies ONLY on a interference fit with hole will not. It would be stupid for Campy to put a zip tie through a pair of plates and insist that it be used for the initial chain joining, if that pair of plates had a peened pin pushed through it.
06-02-12, 05:35 PM
#79
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Yes, the procedure is not the same, if the chain is broken and rejoined.
All it means is the flared end of the new joining pin provides enough strength to allow it's use in a hole that's had a pin pushed through it, whereas the old style that relies ONLY on a interference fit with hole will not. It would be stupid for Campy to put a zip tie through a pair of plates and insist that it be used for the initial chain joining, if that pair of plates had a peened pin pushed through it.
All it means is the flared end of the new joining pin provides enough strength to allow it's use in a hole that's had a pin pushed through it, whereas the old style that relies ONLY on a interference fit with hole will not. It would be stupid for Campy to put a zip tie through a pair of plates and insist that it be used for the initial chain joining, if that pair of plates had a peened pin pushed through it.
If the loose pair of plates have pristine holes as you say, this means in manufacturing, Campy employs a separate station to add pristine plates to the end of the chain. If the chain is made continuously, there is no way for Campy to create loose plates with pristine holes otherwise. Reeming the holes if having a pin pushed through plates to break the chain would create holes larger than a peened pin pushed though the hole. This would of course mandate a different pin size which isn't feasible. Further...this added operation of course elevates Campy manufacturing cost for the chain...by having an added operation to add two loose plates on the end of the chain with pristine holes. Honestly this added operation seems suspect to me...but if you say the holes don't appear as though a peened rivet has been pushed through them, I believe you.
Last edited by Campag4life; 06-02-12 at 05:39 PM.
06-03-12, 07:11 AM
#80
Senior Member
So you are are saying that the 11s chain comes with a ziptie denoting pristine holes through a pair of plates on the end of the chain.
If the loose pair of plates have pristine holes as you say, this means in manufacturing, Campy employs a separate station to add pristine plates to the end of the chain. If the chain is made continuously, there is no way for Campy to create loose plates with pristine holes otherwise. Reeming the holes if having a pin pushed through plates to break the chain would create holes larger than a peened pin pushed though the hole. This would of course mandate a different pin size which isn't feasible. Further...this added operation of course elevates Campy manufacturing cost for the chain...by having an added operation to add two loose plates on the end of the chain with pristine holes. Honestly this added operation seems suspect to me...but if you say the holes don't appear as though a peened rivet has been pushed through them, I believe you.
If the loose pair of plates have pristine holes as you say, this means in manufacturing, Campy employs a separate station to add pristine plates to the end of the chain. If the chain is made continuously, there is no way for Campy to create loose plates with pristine holes otherwise. Reeming the holes if having a pin pushed through plates to break the chain would create holes larger than a peened pin pushed though the hole. This would of course mandate a different pin size which isn't feasible. Further...this added operation of course elevates Campy manufacturing cost for the chain...by having an added operation to add two loose plates on the end of the chain with pristine holes. Honestly this added operation seems suspect to me...but if you say the holes don't appear as though a peened rivet has been pushed through them, I believe you.
Tight fitting holes were absolutely necessary with the 10 speed chains because the joining pin relies on nothing but an interference fit on the right side. The other side of the pin has a shoulder on it. The 11 speed pin has the same shoulder on the left side, but the right end of pin is hollow and can be flared-out with the Campy tool.
06-03-12, 09:35 AM
#81
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Not at all.
Take a close look at the outerplates at the end of a new 10 or 11 speed chain. They look untouched to me. This concept has been used by Campy since the year 2000, when they introduced 10 speed. Their chains have had a pair of plates with "virgin" holes since that time and they are the only ones that should EVER be used to join a 10 speed chain.
It's also one of the reasons that 10 speed chains CAN NOT be rejoined with just a new joining pin. Those pins rely on the virgin holes on the outer plates. Campy sells a short length of chain with those virgin outer plates on both ends and TWO joining pins. That's the only approved method of rejoining a Campy 10 chain.
The only reason that they allow an 11 speed chain to rejoined after a pin is pushed through the chain is due to the new joining pin design that gets the end flared-out for more holding power.
Take a close look at the outerplates at the end of a new 10 or 11 speed chain. They look untouched to me. This concept has been used by Campy since the year 2000, when they introduced 10 speed. Their chains have had a pair of plates with "virgin" holes since that time and they are the only ones that should EVER be used to join a 10 speed chain.
It's also one of the reasons that 10 speed chains CAN NOT be rejoined with just a new joining pin. Those pins rely on the virgin holes on the outer plates. Campy sells a short length of chain with those virgin outer plates on both ends and TWO joining pins. That's the only approved method of rejoining a Campy 10 chain.
The only reason that they allow an 11 speed chain to rejoined after a pin is pushed through the chain is due to the new joining pin design that gets the end flared-out for more holding power.
You keep repeating the obvious facts, but you still can't explain why Campagnolo won't let you reuse the calibrated link when they will let you reuse another link that has had a peened pin pushed through it. If the calibrated link is indeed a virgin hole (which I'm not doubting), what makes it so special and different that it cannot be broken after it's joined like the other links can? You don't agree with Rob's size theory, you are claiming all the pins and holes are exactly the same size, yet you cannot offer a reasonable theory of your own on why you can break and reuse another peened link, but not the "virgin hole" link. How about this? Instead of spewing know-it-all facts at us, try using some reading comprehension skills and use your vast mechanical engineering experience to really understand what it is that we are trying to figure out here.
07-03-12, 10:30 AM
#82
Senior Member
This thread started great, then gave me a headache at the end!
I think of it as:
1) Campy provides the virgin plates to couple the chain
2) After you couple the chain at those plates, it is now "not a virgin"
3) The other links on the chain have been professionally coupled during manufacture - so they're "virgin" as well
4) Campy says only break and join the chain at virgin links
5) Once you use the replacement pin and peening tool, that connection is NOT A VIRGIN anymore
I think it comes down to Campy feeling that if they manufacture a chain and peen it up, it's still more solid than when the consumer uses the pin and peener system.
I think of it as:
1) Campy provides the virgin plates to couple the chain
2) After you couple the chain at those plates, it is now "not a virgin"
3) The other links on the chain have been professionally coupled during manufacture - so they're "virgin" as well
4) Campy says only break and join the chain at virgin links
5) Once you use the replacement pin and peening tool, that connection is NOT A VIRGIN anymore
I think it comes down to Campy feeling that if they manufacture a chain and peen it up, it's still more solid than when the consumer uses the pin and peener system.
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