Developing Fearlessness/Bike Handling Skills
03-12-17, 08:39 AM
#1
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Developing Fearlessness/Bike Handling Skills
Does anyone know of anything I can practice to stop being such a wimp in races? Lately I've been cornering like a snail and not filling gaps like I used to, but it's not for lack of knowing what to do, rather just being too nervous mid race to execute, worrying about what the other guys will do, worrying about tire going flat mid corner or sliding out, etc.
Riding off road has been suggested, and I'm going to try to do more of that, but ideally I'd like a good way to give less of a **** essentially. Like if I could race a crit with a shot or two of tequila in my system I think I would do much better at it! Unfortunately that's not practical (or is it?)
Riding off road has been suggested, and I'm going to try to do more of that, but ideally I'd like a good way to give less of a **** essentially. Like if I could race a crit with a shot or two of tequila in my system I think I would do much better at it! Unfortunately that's not practical (or is it?)
03-12-17, 09:32 AM
#2
**** that
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I don't think there's anything you can (physically) practice per se, it's a state of mind.
Forget everything that can go wrong - which is a lot - and commit 100% to the moment/turn/surge/sprint/bump/whatever. I learned that from skateboarding, where you have to commit to going down stairs or over whatever or you'll never land a trick.
Taking risks is the name of the game in crit racing. I just tell myself that if I crash, it will probably just be road rash.. which is usually true. Usually..
Forget everything that can go wrong - which is a lot - and commit 100% to the moment/turn/surge/sprint/bump/whatever. I learned that from skateboarding, where you have to commit to going down stairs or over whatever or you'll never land a trick.
Taking risks is the name of the game in crit racing. I just tell myself that if I crash, it will probably just be road rash.. which is usually true. Usually..
03-12-17, 09:43 AM
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Nonsense
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For me it is usually more about worrying about breaking my bike than it is about getting hurt. Do you have a spare bike? If not N+1 might actually apply for real!
03-12-17, 03:44 PM
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Does anyone know of anything I can practice to stop being such a wimp in races? Lately I've been cornering like a snail and not filling gaps like I used to, but it's not for lack of knowing what to do, rather just being too nervous mid race to execute, worrying about what the other guys will do, worrying about tire going flat mid corner or sliding out, etc.
Quit worrying about what the other guys will do. Make them worry about what you are going to do, even when, or particularly when you have to dive deeply in the pain bucket to do so. Just remember you aren't the only one in the pack gassed to the max.
I've even heard from the P/1/2 riders that everyone in the race will get to the point where they question why they ever got into the sport. Find that point in the riders around you and you can break them and they'll usually not challenge you for the rest of the race. Pain is the sword you wield to vanquish your enemies.
I used to develop the attitude that I'd blame that strong rider who is just killing me for my pain, then just up the pain and give it back. It's how we find out who we really are.
As for cornering, that may take a bit of road rash to get there. You really don't know the limits of your cornering abilities until you go past them. I know that's how I learned. Practice in a deserted parking lot to get better, or find a tight course out in the boonies. If you are afraid of ruining your race bike, get a practice bike or maybe a trashmo for it.
--Rick
03-12-17, 04:10 PM
#5
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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I can name like 5 guys with life-changing brain injuries from my 8 years riding. Not sure this sport actually is worth it. You should invest your time into FTP and just get off the front. It's how I race, at least.
03-12-17, 04:19 PM
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This is a bit crude, but there's an old joke about why rock stars are always grabbing their crotches. To remember what they are singing about, in the presence of too many other stimulus. Something is obviously distracting you. If it's the little voice in your head warning you of what that is, you'd do well to heed it. If indoor training has made you a bit stale on actually riding the answer could be a couple shots of tequila and more fun than you should rightfully be having.
Otherwise, see if the ski jumper syndrome applies here. Basically they stop letting guys jump in their late 20's because their minds get too aware of the risk and rob them of a competitive edge. Having a bout of creativity or too much insight can be trouble when you need a blank mind and dull repetition of deeply ingrained actions. Again the answer might be thinning your blood with some high pow and grabbing life by the something or other.
Otherwise, see if the ski jumper syndrome applies here. Basically they stop letting guys jump in their late 20's because their minds get too aware of the risk and rob them of a competitive edge. Having a bout of creativity or too much insight can be trouble when you need a blank mind and dull repetition of deeply ingrained actions. Again the answer might be thinning your blood with some high pow and grabbing life by the something or other.
03-12-17, 04:53 PM
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Is there a track near you? I understand that track riding is good for handling and getting comfortable in the mix. I've only done it once but it was very much like a crit: all elbow to elbow and tight to the wheel. Best part was having no brakes.
03-12-17, 06:49 PM
#8
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I believe in isolating the issue and then training to deal with it. This meaning the whole "pack riding" thing.
For me there is basically one issue - I'm afraid of crashing.
Drilling down a bit, I'm afraid of crashing in certain situations.
Bumping side-to-side. I've dealt with that many years ago by practicing bumping side-to-side in training rides, fooling around in parking lots, and finally, focused sessions where we specifically met to do side-to-side drills.
Falling over in a turn (because went in too hot or whatever). I learned my limits by falling 3? times in the same turn in different situations (sand, wet, dry). Not really ideal. Nowadays I slow down a bit. I haven't figured out a way to go faster in, say, the rain.
Touching/crossing wheels. I dealt with this by doing wheel touching drills. The aforementioned "sessions" were at school, Tue and Thu, 1.5-2 hours each day, from Sept until it was just too cold to do it (Dec-ish). By the 3rd or 4th session we basically practiced some technique only if there was someone new there and then we did the "full contact waterbottle crit". This is where everyone throws a bottle in a roughly 40-50 foot circle. Then you slalom in and out of the bottles while either in the middle or on the edges. If on the edges you're pushing in pretty much as hard as you can. If you're in the middle you're trying to stay up. If you're in front you slow, then speed up, then slow, then speed up, so that the person behind you gets significant and regular contact on their front wheel.
I learned how to touch wheels pretty hard in those drills. I've hit things hard enough to lift my rear wheel off the ground, and definitely enough for me to almost get ejected off my saddle. "Things" = rear axle (between spokes and drop out on left side), rear drop out, tires/rim (when wheel is cutting across my path like in a hairpin corner), and cassette (luckily didn't cut my tire).
I think the latter is the most important "skill" I have. It allows me to corner/ride tight on other people's wheels. I feel super comfortable riding with my front tire inches away from other bikes/people.
My ultimate challenge, which I've done to strangers only twice or three times, is to ride with my front tire between the rear derailleur cable (not a Di2 loop but definitely before the massive SRAM loops) and the spokes of the rider in front of me. If you go and look at that spot on your bike it's basically a 3"x3" square, enclosed on three sides. One of those times the rider in front of me was a former/pro and so I was doing it just for kicks. He had no idea I was doing it. Group ride (Gimbels in NY). Unfortunately someone up front almost crashed, everyone slammed on their brakes, and I hit his cassette so hard I almost launched over the bike. But no issues and in fact I was comfortably overlapped immediately after. Someone commented that "that's why you don't overlap wheels" to which I retorted "that's why you do front wheel contact drills".
If I couldn't deal with front wheel contact I'm pretty sure I'd be a significantly less able bike racer because my main weakness, needed to stay well under 200w to stay in the race, would be insurmountable. I'd get shelled immediately.
For me there is basically one issue - I'm afraid of crashing.
Drilling down a bit, I'm afraid of crashing in certain situations.
Bumping side-to-side. I've dealt with that many years ago by practicing bumping side-to-side in training rides, fooling around in parking lots, and finally, focused sessions where we specifically met to do side-to-side drills.
Falling over in a turn (because went in too hot or whatever). I learned my limits by falling 3? times in the same turn in different situations (sand, wet, dry). Not really ideal. Nowadays I slow down a bit. I haven't figured out a way to go faster in, say, the rain.
Touching/crossing wheels. I dealt with this by doing wheel touching drills. The aforementioned "sessions" were at school, Tue and Thu, 1.5-2 hours each day, from Sept until it was just too cold to do it (Dec-ish). By the 3rd or 4th session we basically practiced some technique only if there was someone new there and then we did the "full contact waterbottle crit". This is where everyone throws a bottle in a roughly 40-50 foot circle. Then you slalom in and out of the bottles while either in the middle or on the edges. If on the edges you're pushing in pretty much as hard as you can. If you're in the middle you're trying to stay up. If you're in front you slow, then speed up, then slow, then speed up, so that the person behind you gets significant and regular contact on their front wheel.
I learned how to touch wheels pretty hard in those drills. I've hit things hard enough to lift my rear wheel off the ground, and definitely enough for me to almost get ejected off my saddle. "Things" = rear axle (between spokes and drop out on left side), rear drop out, tires/rim (when wheel is cutting across my path like in a hairpin corner), and cassette (luckily didn't cut my tire).
I think the latter is the most important "skill" I have. It allows me to corner/ride tight on other people's wheels. I feel super comfortable riding with my front tire inches away from other bikes/people.
My ultimate challenge, which I've done to strangers only twice or three times, is to ride with my front tire between the rear derailleur cable (not a Di2 loop but definitely before the massive SRAM loops) and the spokes of the rider in front of me. If you go and look at that spot on your bike it's basically a 3"x3" square, enclosed on three sides. One of those times the rider in front of me was a former/pro and so I was doing it just for kicks. He had no idea I was doing it. Group ride (Gimbels in NY). Unfortunately someone up front almost crashed, everyone slammed on their brakes, and I hit his cassette so hard I almost launched over the bike. But no issues and in fact I was comfortably overlapped immediately after. Someone commented that "that's why you don't overlap wheels" to which I retorted "that's why you do front wheel contact drills".
If I couldn't deal with front wheel contact I'm pretty sure I'd be a significantly less able bike racer because my main weakness, needed to stay well under 200w to stay in the race, would be insurmountable. I'd get shelled immediately.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
03-12-17, 07:14 PM
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Does anyone know of anything I can practice to stop being such a wimp in races? Lately I've been cornering like a snail and not filling gaps like I used to, but it's not for lack of knowing what to do, rather just being too nervous mid race to execute, worrying about what the other guys will do, worrying about tire going flat mid corner or sliding out, etc.
At least, that's what I did. It was the only way to stay competitive in the upper categories when I didn't/don't have the watts the other guys do.
03-12-17, 09:07 PM
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I believe in isolating the issue and then training to deal with it. This meaning the whole "pack riding" thing.
For me there is basically one issue - I'm afraid of crashing.
Drilling down a bit, I'm afraid of crashing in certain situations.
Bumping side-to-side. I've dealt with that many years ago by practicing bumping side-to-side in training rides, fooling around in parking lots, and finally, focused sessions where we specifically met to do side-to-side drills.
Falling over in a turn (because went in too hot or whatever). I learned my limits by falling 3? times in the same turn in different situations (sand, wet, dry). Not really ideal. Nowadays I slow down a bit. I haven't figured out a way to go faster in, say, the rain.
Touching/crossing wheels. I dealt with this by doing wheel touching drills. The aforementioned "sessions" were at school, Tue and Thu, 1.5-2 hours each day, from Sept until it was just too cold to do it (Dec-ish). By the 3rd or 4th session we basically practiced some technique only if there was someone new there and then we did the "full contact waterbottle crit". This is where everyone throws a bottle in a roughly 40-50 foot circle. Then you slalom in and out of the bottles while either in the middle or on the edges. If on the edges you're pushing in pretty much as hard as you can. If you're in the middle you're trying to stay up. If you're in front you slow, then speed up, then slow, then speed up, so that the person behind you gets significant and regular contact on their front wheel.
I learned how to touch wheels pretty hard in those drills. I've hit things hard enough to lift my rear wheel off the ground, and definitely enough for me to almost get ejected off my saddle. "Things" = rear axle (between spokes and drop out on left side), rear drop out, tires/rim (when wheel is cutting across my path like in a hairpin corner), and cassette (luckily didn't cut my tire).
I think the latter is the most important "skill" I have. It allows me to corner/ride tight on other people's wheels. I feel super comfortable riding with my front tire inches away from other bikes/people.
My ultimate challenge, which I've done to strangers only twice or three times, is to ride with my front tire between the rear derailleur cable (not a Di2 loop but definitely before the massive SRAM loops) and the spokes of the rider in front of me. If you go and look at that spot on your bike it's basically a 3"x3" square, enclosed on three sides. One of those times the rider in front of me was a former/pro and so I was doing it just for kicks. He had no idea I was doing it. Group ride (Gimbels in NY). Unfortunately someone up front almost crashed, everyone slammed on their brakes, and I hit his cassette so hard I almost launched over the bike. But no issues and in fact I was comfortably overlapped immediately after. Someone commented that "that's why you don't overlap wheels" to which I retorted "that's why you do front wheel contact drills".
If I couldn't deal with front wheel contact I'm pretty sure I'd be a significantly less able bike racer because my main weakness, needed to stay well under 200w to stay in the race, would be insurmountable. I'd get shelled immediately.
For me there is basically one issue - I'm afraid of crashing.
Drilling down a bit, I'm afraid of crashing in certain situations.
Bumping side-to-side. I've dealt with that many years ago by practicing bumping side-to-side in training rides, fooling around in parking lots, and finally, focused sessions where we specifically met to do side-to-side drills.
Falling over in a turn (because went in too hot or whatever). I learned my limits by falling 3? times in the same turn in different situations (sand, wet, dry). Not really ideal. Nowadays I slow down a bit. I haven't figured out a way to go faster in, say, the rain.
Touching/crossing wheels. I dealt with this by doing wheel touching drills. The aforementioned "sessions" were at school, Tue and Thu, 1.5-2 hours each day, from Sept until it was just too cold to do it (Dec-ish). By the 3rd or 4th session we basically practiced some technique only if there was someone new there and then we did the "full contact waterbottle crit". This is where everyone throws a bottle in a roughly 40-50 foot circle. Then you slalom in and out of the bottles while either in the middle or on the edges. If on the edges you're pushing in pretty much as hard as you can. If you're in the middle you're trying to stay up. If you're in front you slow, then speed up, then slow, then speed up, so that the person behind you gets significant and regular contact on their front wheel.
I learned how to touch wheels pretty hard in those drills. I've hit things hard enough to lift my rear wheel off the ground, and definitely enough for me to almost get ejected off my saddle. "Things" = rear axle (between spokes and drop out on left side), rear drop out, tires/rim (when wheel is cutting across my path like in a hairpin corner), and cassette (luckily didn't cut my tire).
I think the latter is the most important "skill" I have. It allows me to corner/ride tight on other people's wheels. I feel super comfortable riding with my front tire inches away from other bikes/people.
My ultimate challenge, which I've done to strangers only twice or three times, is to ride with my front tire between the rear derailleur cable (not a Di2 loop but definitely before the massive SRAM loops) and the spokes of the rider in front of me. If you go and look at that spot on your bike it's basically a 3"x3" square, enclosed on three sides. One of those times the rider in front of me was a former/pro and so I was doing it just for kicks. He had no idea I was doing it. Group ride (Gimbels in NY). Unfortunately someone up front almost crashed, everyone slammed on their brakes, and I hit his cassette so hard I almost launched over the bike. But no issues and in fact I was comfortably overlapped immediately after. Someone commented that "that's why you don't overlap wheels" to which I retorted "that's why you do front wheel contact drills".
If I couldn't deal with front wheel contact I'm pretty sure I'd be a significantly less able bike racer because my main weakness, needed to stay well under 200w to stay in the race, would be insurmountable. I'd get shelled immediately.
03-12-17, 09:17 PM
#11
Senior Member
To some extent I find I need a reminder of what's actually possible. A 1/2/3 crit on a technical course is a good wake-up call about how hard and fast you can actually corner, how small a gap you can fit through, etc. I find the 3/4 races a lot scarier in some ways because I'm more likely to be up near the front and I just don't trust those riders nearly as much as in a 1/2/3. My main fear in filling gaps is getting my bars hooked and having my front wheel pulled out from under me. It's still a weakness and why I struggle sometimes to hold position even though I find moving up relatively easy. I'm too quick to surrender spots rather than fight for them. As with the cornering, there's a certain amount of "fake it till you make" that can help, sort of like what @rubiksoval said. Don't be stupid, but stick to your guns and remember the other guys are up here and not crashing.
03-12-17, 09:26 PM
#13
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My 2c is, IMO you're more likely to crash riding timidly. Commit to the moment. If the risk/reward doesn't work for you, there are plenty of other fun ways to spend your time.
Last edited by globecanvas; 03-12-17 at 09:34 PM.
03-12-17, 10:29 PM
#15
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-Lift weights.
-Do more minor crashes.
-Drift on dirt
-Get more testosterone
Then skills stuff, but this is mostly a mental thing. There is a reason Moto GP guys/kids are in their low 20s.
Few kids have issues with this, but many adults do. The reason is simple. Because adult brains have developed to the point they know know they could die - or get really messed up.
Smacking your head on the pavement hard helps you mature faster, but definitely hampers your cornering.
-Do more minor crashes.
-Drift on dirt
-Get more testosterone
Then skills stuff, but this is mostly a mental thing. There is a reason Moto GP guys/kids are in their low 20s.
Few kids have issues with this, but many adults do. The reason is simple. Because adult brains have developed to the point they know know they could die - or get really messed up.
Smacking your head on the pavement hard helps you mature faster, but definitely hampers your cornering.
03-13-17, 05:06 AM
#16
Rides too much bike
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I tell myself "No one else wants to crash". For the most part that is true. I claim no surplus of bike handling skills but I have been unexpectedly jostled, ridden into by another rider, crossed wheels and nearly had my tires slide out from me enough to know that in general everyone has good instincts, you included.
I don't know when your season starts, but near the beginning of each season I feel exactly how you describe: Unsure and unsteady.
I don't know when your season starts, but near the beginning of each season I feel exactly how you describe: Unsure and unsteady.
03-13-17, 06:46 AM
#17
Senior Member
I should point out that I'm pretty risk averse and generally a bit timid on the bike. Rain? I never mastered rain cornering so I severely slow. Snow on downhill descents on the MTB? Slow. Drop offs? I basically walk them. I haven't mastered these technical situations, don't even know how to start (and, honestly, I wasn't interested in mastering them either - I felt the risk side was too high for the reward side).
In a season of track racing I managed to touch the moto roller once, and I struggled mentally to close the last 2 feet to the wheel in front of me. This was 2009 so I was a proficient bike handler on paved surfaces.
I do crits because they're, for me, the safest races I can do - sit close to others, shelter efficiently. It's mainly because I feel comfortable with somewhat significant front wheel contact. Thing is that even if I don't get to the finish I love cornering in formation, sitting in the perfect spot behind/next to someone, etc. The sprint is just the frosting on the cake.
In a season of track racing I managed to touch the moto roller once, and I struggled mentally to close the last 2 feet to the wheel in front of me. This was 2009 so I was a proficient bike handler on paved surfaces.
I do crits because they're, for me, the safest races I can do - sit close to others, shelter efficiently. It's mainly because I feel comfortable with somewhat significant front wheel contact. Thing is that even if I don't get to the finish I love cornering in formation, sitting in the perfect spot behind/next to someone, etc. The sprint is just the frosting on the cake.
__________________
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
03-13-17, 11:26 AM
#19
Senior Member
03-13-17, 11:34 AM
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I tell myself "No one else wants to crash". For the most part that is true. I claim no surplus of bike handling skills but I have been unexpectedly jostled, ridden into by another rider, crossed wheels and nearly had my tires slide out from me enough to know that in general everyone has good instincts, you included.
I don't know when your season starts, but near the beginning of each season I feel exactly how you describe: Unsure and unsteady.
I don't know when your season starts, but near the beginning of each season I feel exactly how you describe: Unsure and unsteady.
It's weird, I have proven to myself that my instincts are decent as well. I had a bad wheel overlap with some spoke on spoke action in a road race a few weeks ago and I kept it up. Also had 2 front spokes ripped out by someone's skewer and I didn't go down. Skipped my front wheel over a brick section at last weekend's crit and didn't crash. And yet I'm still nervous haha
-Lift weights.
-Do more minor crashes.
-Drift on dirt
-Get more testosterone
Then skills stuff, but this is mostly a mental thing. There is a reason Moto GP guys/kids are in their low 20s.
Few kids have issues with this, but many adults do. The reason is simple. Because adult brains have developed to the point they know know they could die - or get really messed up.
Smacking your head on the pavement hard helps you mature faster, but definitely hampers your cornering.
-Do more minor crashes.
-Drift on dirt
-Get more testosterone
Then skills stuff, but this is mostly a mental thing. There is a reason Moto GP guys/kids are in their low 20s.
Few kids have issues with this, but many adults do. The reason is simple. Because adult brains have developed to the point they know know they could die - or get really messed up.
Smacking your head on the pavement hard helps you mature faster, but definitely hampers your cornering.
At some point you'll get so tired of being pack-fill or just plain off the back that you'll actually start overcompensating for it with aggressive pack riding and you'll get really good at it.
At least, that's what I did. It was the only way to stay competitive in the upper categories when I didn't/don't have the watts the other guys do.
At least, that's what I did. It was the only way to stay competitive in the upper categories when I didn't/don't have the watts the other guys do.
I appreciate all the feedback and tips, I'll need to process a bit and come up with a plan to get better.
03-13-17, 11:52 AM
#23
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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go back and look at pictures of his bike, where the bars are, then imagine that on a ride. The guy wouldn't feel him there? Wouldn't know? Everyone else on the ride wouldn't lose their **** at such needlessly dangerous behavior?
Whatever - @wtkmeow go race cross, do wheel touch drills on grass, pre-ride courses when you can, etc... That might all help you improve your handling and the range of riding in which you feel marginally safe. Just don't ride around and play touch-wheels on unsuspecting riders, endangering you, him, and everyone behind you, as that would be such a gigantically ******* thing to do I find it difficult to imagine.
03-13-17, 12:09 PM
#24
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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@gsteinb comes from body building, has incredible discipline, and isn't posting about how to build courage in tight quarters tho.
I'm not saying it's impossible or even trying to dissuade someone from doing touch drills or whatever. Only commiserating that I empathize with the "safety-first" voice inside the head that hinders one's racing a little bit and saying that it's not the worst thing in the world to have.
I've experienced some racing success. It's not that valuable to me. More racing success vs. (perceived) lowered risk for TBI? I'll take losing any day. It's not provable that riding like a wimp even makes anyone safer, but the perception of risk averse behavior in my own riding is kinda what allows me to go out there at all.
I'm not saying it's impossible or even trying to dissuade someone from doing touch drills or whatever. Only commiserating that I empathize with the "safety-first" voice inside the head that hinders one's racing a little bit and saying that it's not the worst thing in the world to have.
I've experienced some racing success. It's not that valuable to me. More racing success vs. (perceived) lowered risk for TBI? I'll take losing any day. It's not provable that riding like a wimp even makes anyone safer, but the perception of risk averse behavior in my own riding is kinda what allows me to go out there at all.
03-13-17, 01:40 PM
#25
Ninny
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if you believe he's riding around, overlapping half a wheel in a ****-around easy ride with his tire between the derailleur cable and spokes, I can't help you.
go back and look at pictures of his bike, where the bars are, then imagine that on a ride. The guy wouldn't feel him there? Wouldn't know? Everyone else on the ride wouldn't lose their **** at such needlessly dangerous behavior?
go back and look at pictures of his bike, where the bars are, then imagine that on a ride. The guy wouldn't feel him there? Wouldn't know? Everyone else on the ride wouldn't lose their **** at such needlessly dangerous behavior?
Having said that, the truth of the story is neither here nor there with respect to the OP's question. Everybody has their own risk aversion threshold and that's fine. I've seen guys (and girls) who are not naturally risk takers really feel like they need to be riskier in order to succeed and I don't think it's healthy, both in terms of being comfortable with who you are, and in terms of outcomes. So it's valid to respond to "how can I accept more risk" with both CDR's answer of "train yourself to be comfortable in risky-seeming situations" and with your answer of "don't accept more risk."