v70cat

I am looking at clincher wheel set and more first choose is Zipp 404's but I also see Light Weights, Reyonds and Hed. I am looking for advice on which brand to get and why? It seems that Hed costs a fair bit less and if they are good that might be a better way to go? I would also consider other brands. Thank you for your help.

carpediemracing 

What are you looking for as far as benefits go?

teterider

Here is the dilemma with carbon clinchers. You either get them to go really light but give up aero completely, or to go just aero, or you get them (and my would-be reason) to not only get light but aero too.

Those with aluminum brake tracks are great in the heat build-up issue department, but they also weigh in the 1700 gram range and 200 grams more than a nice all aluminum and cheaper set, with the weight at the perimeter too. Of course weight isn't everything. As I keep looking at them, to me the reason to spend the money is getting light and aero so they better be 45mm+ and in the 1300-1400 gram range although I suppose around 1500 grams is OK when weighing in prices. That leaves a select group of wheels, and I'd like to see where Mad Fibers clinchers once released fall into this. Enve (Edge) has the 45 and 65 that fall into this, Soul, Reynolds...

Your desires may differ based on riding terrain and so forth, but I just give this as food for thought.

v70cat

Benefits the usual, areo, lightweight, good looks, maybe alum braking surface?
Other benefits crash protection plans and coverage.

Size/shape like the 404's.

topflightpro

If you want clinchers, you have to decide if you want a full carbon clincher or aluminum brake track. Full carbons require carbon-specific brake pads.

Aluminum brake track wheelsets will weigh about 200 grams more than full carbon clinchers. And the Alu. Zipp 404s and Hed Jets are not particularly light (1700 - 1800 gramts). Reynolds clinchers, which are full carbon, are lighter.

If weight is the issue, you might want to consider going with tubulars. If not, clinchers will be fine.

All that said, one of the fastest guys I know is about to get Hed Jet 6s - the wheel weight has never hindered him.

AngryScientist 

let me help you translate: i have no idea what i want, or why i want it, but zipps look cool and i have a bucket of money i'm looking to spend.

gundom66

If you have a bucket of money to spend, maybe go with Reynolds. I was messin' with Competitive Cyclist last night and in the drop down for the wheelsets, there was this $5k+ Reynolds at about 900g. If the pricing and weight are correct, those should be perfect for you... A bucket of money to spend on something that lightweight, and it covers one of your options - Reynolds.

v70cat

Yes the Zipps look cool and yes I don't have a lot experience with carbon wheels. Money is always a factor. The reason I created this thread was to get help and direction.

carpediemracing 

Use? Racing? Supported training rides? Like you can call someone if you flat?

I ask because HEDs to Lightweights is kind of like saying "I want a sporty car and I'm checking out the Civic Si and Ferrari whatever they're up to now". Such a big range it seems that if you're willing to step up cost wise, you can get whatever you want. And at some point tubulars become a viable alternative.

Aero - I haven't ridden the shorter height new wheels (under 50mm) so I can't speak for them. I've used 44-50 mm rimmed wheels and found them less than aero. They're closer to box section wheels than a 60 mm wheel. I realized that if I am riding slower than, say, 25 mph, aero wheels don't benefit me. It's in groups and fast bits (30-35 mph or faster) that the wheels come into play.

Weight - cost wise you'll be hard pressed to get a true aero clincher (good shape, 58+ mm height) under 1400g. You can get a taller rear wheel but be careful not to get too heavy a wheel. For speeds under 25 mph, esp when accelerating all over the place, light weight is more fun.

Braking - Alum is good. Carbon works fine in the dry - I haven't even bothered swapping pads this year (Koolstops). In the one rain day I rode alum. I've used alum no problems on long descents with lots of switchbacks (30 min descending at a time). Carbon I was less happy with yellow Swissstops (DV46 clinchers).

Mad Fiber has a very low goal number in mind for crash replacement ($400 but don't quote me). I forget the target retail price. I don't know how they'll do in crosswinds but they claim better than not, but the design runs contrary to a respected aerodynamicist's ideas (he first proposed a wide "pointy" section in the mid 90s while working for a wheel company and now Zipp and HED are doing this).

v70cat

Use is to keep-up with a A group that all have carbon and out ride me. (PLEASE NO BS ABOUT THE ENGINE)
I am over 50 and will never be a racer just want to keep up with the group.

Next spring I will be joining a NYCC SIG group and the carbon could be useful with them as well.

I have no support which is why I was looking at clinchers.

Yes the range of suggested carbon is broad, but a Civic SI is still a nice car and a Ferrari is over kill for 90% of its drivers. The nice thing about bikes is the dollars are not that big so you buy the Ferrari for $10,000 instead of $150,000. I still try a find the sweet point for example my Cervelo R3SL was a leftover that I paid far less than a new R3. Not sure a Cervelo is a Ferrari but it is at least a BMW.

carpediemracing 

I would get the lightest tall carbon clinchers.

The weight would help on hills and at lower speeds, and the tallness would help at higher speeds (big efforts on flatter terrain plus descents). If possible mix the front and rear - I'd get a tall rear, a mid and tall front. Reynolds has a very good carbon clincher - the 66 rear, the 46/66 front. If I was to get one set of wheels for everything, that's probably what I'd get, or something similar to it. You can even get the lighter front wheel for super gusty wind days (32? I dunno what it's called).

I have heavy (alum brake) clinchers that I rarely use in training - I don't go fast when I train so I lug it around 90% of the time so I can benefit from it for about 5% of the time (the other 5% is facetiously spent accelerating up to the beneficial speeds). The tubulars are just as aero, much much lighter, and I'd love to be able to ride them all the time. Most of my time is spent on (close to) box section clinchers, at or below 20 mph avg. For all around training/riding, they work the best.

Btw racing, for me, is all about staying with the group. Even the no-drop, "easy" Monday evening LBS rides were killing me, and I wasn't leading up every hill. The needs of a racer and "non-racer" are the same, just different in the lengths to which to meet the needs (due to support, "all or nothing" attitude, etc).

I agree with the "Ferrari for $10k" idea with bikes, and I also agree with getting a good value for what I spend.

cdr

Velo Gator

I just got a set of Reynolds Assaults that I'm very happy with. Light, aero, and much cheaper than 404s. Braking is pretty good also.

Essex

I was at the Gloucester Grand Prix and noticed that a lot of the pro riders were using carbon wheels with moderate aero features. A previous post indicates real functionality of aero features (carbon) at speeds in excess of 30 mph. Just wondering why carbon with moderate aero features are used for a race which seems to be typically fought in the trenches? Weight vs. comparable alloy rims? I also see the use of carbon aero at the Cross Vegas race too.

Just wonderin' because I am thinking of getting some carbon wheels for the road and getting some mixed ideas about how really useful aero, or carbons really are?
The Fulcrum "6" wheels which came with the Tarmac seem to take a bit to get up to speed and on the hills I don't feel the acceleration when I push hard. That last bit translates into getting dusted on the hills. From purely a statistical side the weight and "aero" advantage seem particulary appealing.

https://www.gpgloucester.com/

https://www.crossvegas.com/site/index.php

kwakster928

I have been eying on carbon clinchers for some time now. For me, carbon wheels are like a luxury that I do not need. I am a B+/A- rider with 20 mph avg on a moderately flat course. I feel that current set up I have, Cervelo R3 with Sram Red + Dura-ace tubeless wheel is a luxury alone. At my current level of cycling, aero wheels' benefits will be minuscule at best. My Dura-Ace wheels are getting little bit up due to the ammonia based sealant I initially used . I will probably need to replace my wheels next season. A huge dilemma awaits.....

I have be be honest though, I just can't get rid of feeling of taking a plunge on a set of carbon aero wheel.

tjspahr

I understand you're looking for input on the wheels. I'll give it. But if the engine doesn't allow you to keep with the A group, wheels don't matter. Our A group has a number of 50+ guys who can keep on, but they are racers/ex-racers/ex-collegiate athletes who have stayed in shape and have excellent bike fitness. If you are sitting in the pack and getting dropped, wheels aren't going to help. Learning to position yourself in the pack, and do the least amount of work possible to stay with the group will help. And you may still get dropped. Keep repeating until you are no longer dropped. See my third sentence above.

With respect to wheels, The Zipp 404s are great. But depending on the terrain and conditions you ride in, maybe not the best. Any carbon wheel is likely going to be more prone to issues if you are consistently on rough roads. If you crash, pretty much forget about it, you will damage a wheel...and likely not in an easily repairable way. Also, high profile rims are a handful in wind; on windy group rides, I can see who shouldn't be on them, and avoid those guys like the plague. For safety's sake, I will try to drop those guys as fast as possible. No carbon wheel would not be my primary/only wheelset. YMMV.

If you are sold on carbon, the wheels you have mentioned I'm sure are all fine. I can only speak for the Zipps, have 404s and love them. The company's customer service is excellent, and they offer crash replacement. The 404 Firecrest clincher is supposed to experience less drag than the 404 tubular, but they are more expensive. The only other wheel along these lines that I've owned was the HED Alps, which didn't come close to the Zipps IMO. You might also look at Mavic Cosmic Carbones, which I've heard good things about, and would likely be cheaper and more easily serviced.

Inertianinja

I just saw this thread.


I have a SRAM S60/S80 combo. Not the lightest, but they are deep and aero. I ride in the same place you do and i can tell you they are fun and easy enough on the wallet for a start. Look on ebay. Wheels are the next dream upgrade for me...im waiting to see what the MadFibers are like. But you wabt to feel the aero woosh in the park, theese will do it.

Hell, if ypu want to take a look at them tomorrow or one morning this week, let me know. I do central park on the daily.

Also, on a personal note: please dont be like the NYCC A ride guys. Yea, they keep a 25mph pace, but theyre in a paceline. I dont ride with them because they dont ride safe. I can stay ahead of them even in their little paceline. But they swerve all over the park yelling at people, cut people off, and do that poser crap where they get passed on the uphills and speed on the downhills. Join CRCA. If you want a fast group of older guys to aspire to keep up, look for the guys in the Hospital for Special Surgery kit on thursday/friday mornings. Or come ride with me.

v70cat

The interest in SIG is to take it to the next level. In the last year I have lost 25 pounds and increase my speed and range dramatically. That is mainly due to the spring training rides offered by 5BBC. I thought that SIG would offer good skills like pace-line riding and hill climbing. I do not think i will ever qualify as a A group SIG rider, the A group I was referring to is much smaller group on the East End of long Island.

Does the CRCA offer the training of a SIG? They seem focused on racing?

I ride mainly in Queens and Long Island getting to Central Park is no fun, though I have gone to the Park on early weekend mornings. It would be great to ride with you on a weekend morning.

datlas 

This is an honest question related to the posting.

Would carbon wheels really make a difference between staying with the "fast club" guys and getting dropped??

I am guessing not.

Essex

That's funny! Now I understand. I have ridden Central Park on many occasion solo and have wondered who all these guys are who take cheap shots like accelerating down the hills. I typically take them on the hill and wondered why there was so much weirdness going on. The last time some guy on a tri bike passed me on the hill trying very hard and past the crest took a left turn (wrong way) to avoid me catching up. Gotta love NYC!

vanno.velo

I have the Mavic Cosmic Carbone SL wheelset and it's great!

The only downside is the ~1700g weight... but they have the durability to compensate. If you wanted lighter weight, the SLRs are a couple hundred grams lighter.

Inertianinja

Yea and dude...over 50? Treat yourself. Spend whatever you want, dont listen to any of the haters. If you have the money, get hot wheels. There is no requirement that you be "good enough" for your bike stuff.

v70cat

Funny about the safety criticism of NYCC I had lunch with someone on a 5BBC ride and he was saying how the 5BBC spinner (the fast group) don't hold a pace line and are not a disciplined as the NYCC Sig groups.
I hope the SIG rides are not all about passing others in Central Park?

v70cat

I hear you, when I first got my Cervelo I thought going 14 MPH was fast.

The purpose of this thread was to find the equal of a Zipp 404 for less money. No question that Zipps are really nice but are they worth the money or are they equal to paying an extra $3,500 for Dura-Ace electric?

rangerdavid

^^this^^ these wheels are great!!

2intune

This is only a mild hijack. There is currently in the Group Buy Forum a sale on carbon fiber wheels made in Taiwan. They purport to be made in the same factory as some name brand wheels. The 50mm profile wheel weighs in at under 1600 gms, and is priced at $539.00. I'm wondering what some of you more experienced folks think about taking a shot on these. Like the OP, I'm looking to buy myself a present. I just turned 50 and I know I'm woefully underqualified, but if not now, when?