tomato coupe

I think cleanliness is more often cited as the reason for waxing. But, even if chain life is the main reason, a" fastidiously clean" non-waxed drivetrain is also going to have a longer life.

Polaris OBark

I don't have any firm statistics on what reasons are cited (nor, do I suspect, do you), but cleanliness carries with it the implicit assumption of being a means to an end, i.e., a longer-lasting drive-train, so it is not an exclusive OR.

Yeah, it is certainly not the only way. I do think it is the easiest way, but if there is a way to make the parts last as long that doesn't require more labor or much more expense, I would happily convert (or use it as an additional option).

WhyFi

No, not really.

I'm only speaking for myself, but the cleanliness of waxing isn't about the upper bounds, but rather the lower - not how sparkly it is at its best, but how functionally clean it is at its worst, ie with minimal effort. Web lube drivetrains can get gross without cleaning, waxed drivetrains don't.

WhyFi

I don't know that this is true - I don't think that regularly stripping chains is recommended - but even if it is, the big question for me is, "at what cost?" I'm very much not interested in that kind of maintenance - riding my bike is my hobby, not working on it.

Polaris OBark

One of the main problems with many non-wax lubes is that sand and grit adheres to it, which makes a grinding paste. Then, when you clean the chain, the finer particles get washed into the roller surfaces, so even though it can look clean after an organic solvent wash, the grit continues to do damage.

I don't think wax is immune to that, but grit doesn't adhere to it nearly as much, so less is present when it comes time to re-wax.

Maelochs

There is an Australian dude---and engineer, I believe---who actually did all the scientific testing by putting the bike on a rig and running it via a motor for however many hours, to determine to the micro-watt which lubrication solution was more efficient ..... you can look it up, I don't have the link handy. What I did glean was that (I think) six-micron PTFE (teflon) powder tended to stay in solution longer while more readily available larger-grain powers separated out during the immersion process.

Also, all the big-name wax products are basically PFE in paraffin with some sulfur compound to keep them from caking .... which you don't need if you are working in small batches.

I don't keep minute-detail records but I track mileage .... and in the dry, as far as I can tell, a waxed chain lasts a Lot longer than a wet-lube chain between complete removal/cleaning---based on noise mostly, because I barely produce a microwatt ... i wouldn't know how to measure ..... I think the reason is that no matter how carefully I use wet lube (apply it sparingly to each link, spin it a ton, let it sit overnight to seep in, thoroughly wipe the chain before riding) the wet lube seems to collect black gunk---oil and dust, i assume---which is abrasive and generates noise--while generating wear. (It sounds like it is grinding away at my drivetrain because it is grinding away at my drivetrain.) The waxed chain looks kind of gray, but is a lot quieter.

In any case, when I pull a chain I soak it in some solvent---usually Simple Green lately, but i have used mineral oil---then hang it to dry for a few days ... apparently water in the rollers can get trapped the and keep oil from penetrating of you lube too soon. Then I either apply a wet lube (anything from TriFlo to some wax-based lube like Finnish Line to PTFE-oil---I have tried a bunch) or ...

I heat wax in a double boiler, add the PTFE powder---I find a batch of wax lasts fro a really long time---then swish my chain around in to on a bent-up coat-hanger for a few minutes, let it sit a few minutes, swish it some more .... ten minutes of that (which is about two minutes of actually doing anything) and I hang the chain to cool. When it has cooled some I work it around to flake off most of the excess was (I do it over the bowl so i don't lose much) then hang it back up to cool more. The next day I put it on the bike or put it in a plastic container for my next swap, after having taken a clean, waxed chain out of the container and put it on my bike already. I keep one or two ready to go and do a a few at a time if it is handy.

In terms of how much work is involved .... maybe a little less, because I don't have to remove and clean the chain as often (by a considerable factor but I would hate to be too specific because I am not willing to do the actual mileage comparisons .... I am not here to convince anyone else and I am fine with my personal impressions for my own uses .... a factor of two, I would estimate, but who knows?)

For me the big gains are what seems like a lot less grinding on the gears (cassettes are freaking expensive nowadays) and the fact that the chain is pretty much clean all the time. I get a little grey grime on my fingers if a handle it, but with any wet lube I get big black marks if I just threaten to touch the train or gears. The chain doesn't become a black grit-magnet, and neither do the cassette cogs. As I am one an elderly person's income, not eating up cassettes is a big bonus ... but again, i ahve not done the scientific testing.

And again in some cases others have done the actual per-mile, per-watt tests if that matters to you.

I am not a paid spokesperson for any corporation or service. I don't care if you lube your chain with Superglue or 90-weifght gear oil or Crisco or not at all. However, having tried waxing, I find it worth the slight added time involved.

Kapusta

The other primary touted benefit (longer drivetrain wear) is due to the chain staying very clean, allegedly with less work.

The extreme cleanliness and long drivetrain wear go together. This has been driven home enough in this thread that I did not think it needed repeating.

tomato coupe

The "cost" of regularly stripping a non-waxed chain is no different than maintaining waxed chains. In both cases you can have multiple chains that you swap at regular intervals. Instead of dropping all your chains in a crock pot every month or two, you drop all your chains in an ultrasonic cleaner. As a bonus, the ultrasonic cleaner is likely to do a better job removing wear-inducing grit from critical areas of the chain.

WhyFi

Are you looking for an earnest discussion or are you looking for "gotchas!" and to win one for your tribe? 'Cause there's problems with the above.

WhyFi

Either you haven't read or you couldn't comprehend some of the recent posts. Neither is my problem.

tomato coupe

Earnest. (And I don't have a tribe.)

WhyFi

What steps are there between pulling the chain out of the ultrasonic cleaner and riding?

tomato coupe

1. Hang chains and let them dry
2. Reinstall chain on bike
3. Add a drop of lube to every link

WhyFi

How much attention is needed between this and the next cleaning/drying/lubing session?

tomato coupe

If you're swapping chains at the same interval (every 300 km?) as a waxed chain, then you don't need to do anything between.

WhyFi

300 miles, +/- 50, would be closer to typical for me.

What about drivetrain accumulation? How often would cassette, jockey wheels and chainrings need to be cleaned to keep it respectable?

tomato coupe

I don't know what "respectable" means to you. But, even without swapping chains, I rarely have to clean my cassettes or chainrings. Presumably, they'd be cleaner if I swapped chains regularly.

BCDrums

This thread has confirmed for me (again) that I'd rather not wax, though many find it beneficial.

And I have learned (again) that, after about 50 posts, many threads devolve into the same few people arguing with each other, and often not about the topic. There are members who are masters at starting this kind of thread, you know who they are. Will add Yaw'll to the list. Congrats.

All best, wax on!

WhyFi

What's "respectable" to you and how frequent is "rarely"? Once per year? Twice? Three times?

tomato coupe

At most, I might clean my cassettes once per year. I probably scrape crud off the pulleys 2 or 3 times per year, and might give them a more thorough cleaning once per year.

sean.hwy

2 to 4 times a month for me. every time I swap chains I clean the pulleys & chainring. I don't clean all cassettes ( 4+ wheel sets ) as well as I should.

I have a gravel/road bike that at least once a week hits dirt though. That one dirt ride is like several months or road riding.

I am doing almost as much work as the people that wax their chain. Seems like an extra 15 minutes from me and I could have a waxed chain which "should" be better than my muc off lubed chain that I did the night before.

I don't think I get my chains clean enough to put in a crock pot of wax though. Even though I clean my chain over several days (mineral spirits over night, wipe down with paper towel and brush, then another overnight in mineral spirits, let dry another day to evaporate mineral spirits in the links )

wondering how cleaner the ultrasonic cleaner is

or maybe I should just back to this and send it. :-)







If I can just ignore the damn chain noise and black gunk I would probably be way ahead just lubing the chain dirty the night before and replacing it sooner. Chains don't cost that much.

WhyFi

After pulling the chain out of the wax, I let it hang to cool and then pull it back and forth over a rod a few times (15-20 seconds?) to break the links free before reinstalling.

At intervals ~60% longer, I'm doing nothing between swaps.

Life time cleanings of cassette: 0. Lifetime scrapings of jockey wheels: 0. Lifetime cleanings of chainrings: 0. [With wet lubes, I was cleaning cassettes at least twice per year and not still being satisfied, while crud scraping was about the same - different kinds of street grime, I assume]

This was sparked by my, "but at what cost?" question with respect to keeping a wet-lubed drivetrain fastidiously clean. It seems to me that I'm doing less for each chain swap, I'm doing chain swaps significantly less frequently and my occasional cleanings are now never cleanings. This is pretty consistent with my earlier assertion that the initial chain stripping was the vast majority of the work involved with waxing. And then there's the monetary cost of the CrockPot (12 bucks, last I checked) vs that of an ultrasonic cleaner (more than 12 bucks, the last I checked).

Again, I obviously encourage everybody to do what's most sensible for themselves, but let's stop casting aspersions on others for having a different process that works better for them - their mileage, literally and figuratively, will vary.

SpedFast

Some threads wax, and some threads wane. Knew when I started following this one which way it was going just based on the topic.

datlas 

Now you are waxing poetic.

Wax on, wax off.

GhostRider62

you take the waxed chain off, dump it into the crockpot, remove after 10 or so minutes. Install. After 200-250 miles, touch the chain up with liquid wax like Squirt. At 600 miles, remove it. dump it into the crockpot. No real work. cassette isn't dirty nor are the pulleys.