Koyote

Yes, whether we're discussing disc brakes, or electronic shifting, or tubeless tires, the anti crowd regularly tries to convince people that the new tech sucks - even though they've usually not tried it. And then they engage in classic projection by claiming that others are trying to convince them to adopt the new tech -- which is something I can't recall ever seeing on bf.

It's all very predictable, and very weird. It's almost like some people feel threatened by new things.

Fredo76

It's true that making fun of tech skeptics is not the same as trying to convince them. IT'S WORSE. And it's no wonder why they feel like the people making fun are actually trying to convince them.

Ass-holishness on BF lessens the site's enjoyability, and when they gang up, it's pretty easy to identify the creepy ones here. There are quite a few.

Koyote

I honestly haven't noticed anyone "making fun of tech skeptics." Can you provide examples?

tomato coupe

There's a big difference between skeptics and purveyors of misinformation. We're dealing with the latter category here.

Chandne

My new road tubeless foray is relatively recent thing. I carry one TPU (space is scarce) tube and starting to carry the Dynaplug darts. I suspect it will not be very easy to put a tube in and reinstall a tubeless tire. That is my main concern. I'd prefer to plug it and CO2 up the tire. With these thinner carbon rims, I'd hate to use a tire lever with any force so the tube thing freaks me out a bit.

Fredo76

How about an entire thread on "how to learn", originally posted by someone who hasn't and won't, and soon shut down (without my help)?

Koyote

That's not an example; links to such posts are examples.

I'm not stating that it hasn't happened...I'm stating that I don't recall seeing it on bf, and you've not provided any evidence for your claim. While, on the other hand, we have plenty of examples of people -- people who admit to not even trying new tech -- telling others that it is useless. We've seen that right in this thread, in posts 1, 10, and 47 -- to name a few.


Think of how ludicrous this is: I'm willing to bet that 100% of the people using tubeless have used (and most are probably still using, on some bikes) inner tubes. In other words, they have experience with BOTH systems, and are choosing to continue using tubeless. People like Leisesturm , who admit to NEVER EVEN TRYING tubeless, nonetheless feel compelled to proclaim to the rest of us that it "offers no benefits" and that they don't seal punctures well enough to complete rides -- even though many of us have DIRECT EXPERIENCE of that exact thing happening. I mean, people really should feel silly for writing such hogwash. Oh, but it's the internet -- where people double-down on easily-refuted nonsense.

Fredo76

You must have me confused with some other poster. I have never admitted anything of the sort.

mschwett 

what's really annoying about the level of integrity in these kinds of dialogs is that people state things as fact (like "If tubeless tires were being ridden in the downtown areas they would flat every day...") and then when someone comes back with actual evidence that the "fact" is in fact totally untrue, or at least far more nuanced, they don't even bother to respond or acknowledge or rebut. are their egos unable to take being wrong? are they just typing to read their own words? IDGAF what kind of tires someone else rides, but frankly i do care about rampant misinformation, much of which caused me plenty of trouble as a new/amateur but spirited cyclist. thankfully i now know who on this site is usually totally full of ... stuff.

Koyote

You are correct -- I was directing that at Leisesturm . I apologize, and have corrected my post.

I'm still waiting for those examples of people "making fun of tech skeptics." Bring 'em on.

FBinNY 

EVERYTHING and EVERY DECISION is about tradeoffs.

Both tube and tubeless tires have their advantages and drawbacks. The key for everyone is to make the choice that best serves their specific needs, and accept that nothing is perfect.

I'm primarily (almost exclusively) a road rider, and never went tubeless because some of the key benefits, ie. elimination of snake bites on MTB tires don't apply to me. OTOH the simplicity and field serviceability or traditional tubed tires are of significant value to me. If I were also a serious mtb rider, I can easily envision owning both tube and tubeless bikes in my personal fleet.

BTW - I have similar opinions about disc vs. caliper brakes, metal vs. CF frames, etc. and don't see any meaningful debate on issues like these. Figure out what works for you, then ride your bike understanding that others may very reasonably opt to go a different route.

Koyote

I can't count the number of times I've gotten back from a ride and found sealant on my rear triangle (indicating a puncture)...And my tire's air pressure is down, at most, a couple psi from the start of the ride. And then I come here to bf and am told that tubeless doesn't work like that.

tempocyclist

I rode around 30km home without noticing the pressure difference BUT they were very smooth roads and I don't weigh much (or perhaps I'm just not very observant). I'm not one who can tell a 5psi difference.

tempocyclist

I've had good success using a Dynaplug stabby tool thing to seal a bigger hole in my road tubeless. Jammed it in and out, spun the wheel a few times to get sealant onto it, then aired it up with CO2, trimmed the excess (optional).

I suspect putting a tube in would be a messy procedure and definitely a very last resort!

Koyote

I've done it a couple times, and it's no big deal. It's about like changing a tube on a regular wheel and tire, though you may get some sealant on your hands. But that's water soluble, so no problem really.

And before one of the ignoramuses shouts "Why use tubeless if you have to put in a tube anyway!", I will note (again) the countless times that I've gotten punctures that sealed up, without any muss or fuss or significant air loss, while I was riding.

mschwett 

seriously lol. i did 32 miles at lunch through/around downtown san francisco, 0psi loss, didn't flat instantly... but i must be imagining it and the last 5,000 similar miles because tubeless doesn't work like that.

downtube42

I built up my rando bike tubeless, my first tubeless experience. It has ~10k miles, most of which are brevets 200k and up. I'm not going back to tubes, but then I've probably ridden 500 of those 10k miles with tubes in my tubeless setup. I run 32 or 35 mm tires, typically GK slicks or GP5000s, 55-60psi.

All you people having no flats. Sheesh.

On my first ride over 20 miles I ripped a sidewall on a sharp stone. Plugged it, topped off, carried on. Tubed, that would have required a tube replacement and tire boot. Tubeless win. Except, you know, $50 for a replacement GK slick.

I really struggled taping rims, and had one 200k where I had to stop and top off every 20-30 miles. Big tubeless fail - user error for sure, for a skill not needed with tubes. These days I'm using DT Swiss tape, and so far it's flawless.

Another huge sidewall rip in the middle of a 1200k on the Washington coast. Too big to plug, I tubed it, booted it with a dollar, rode to the next town with a bike shop. Tubed would have been the same result.

On the topic of one tube or two, during the above 20 mile stretch I was sweating it because I didn't have another tube in case of another failure. I was a long way from home. Now I carry two. Plus plugs, patch kit, pump, boot, sealant, stem.

On a 200k brevet this spring I flatted. No hint of spraying, just flat. I couldn't find anything to fix, or any clear sign of where it leaked. Weird. Tubed it. Mystery.

On an SR600, my front tire went soft late on day 2. It was cold and dark and I was tired and alone, so I topped it of 2-3 times as I made my way to a (closed) gas station. At least there was light. The cut was too big to seal, too small for my plug. So I tubed it and carried on. Tubed would have required the same repair, less drama.

One more I recall, on a 600 in Washington. Rear started spraying, didn't seal. Plugged it, topped it off, finished the day. Tubeless win.

Last perm I rode my front wheel started spraying while crossing the bridge into Longview, WA. By the time I got off the bridge it was pretty flat and the bead wasn't fully seated. I couldn't pump fast enough to seat the bead so I tubed it. Now I carry CO2, to have a shot at re-seating a bead. Tubed would have been a tube replacement - similar effort but without the drama.

At LEL last year, at night coming southbound after the turnaround, my front wheel started spraying. Lost some pressure but it sealed. Tubeless win, as I didn't have to replace a tube at 2am in the cold.

Another 200k this sprint, near the finish, my front went soft but I didn't notice any sprary. Topped it off and finished.

That's off the top of my head, there have undoubtable been several more.

It also doesn't address all the work at home. So much time with failed tape jobs. So much time struggling to seat tires - though now I have a technique.

Pre tubeless days, I had similar results. 4x flat on one 600k. Flatted in the middle of the I-205 bridge over the Columbia. Flatted at 4am south of Salem. And on and on. So many tubes.

You guys who say you'd call for help. I was having a really crappy day on the Crater Lake 1200, the day after the flat, riding down the Oregon coast with saddle sores and a bad attitude. I'm like, screw it I'm calling my wife. Called her. Said hey, come pick me up and we'll spend the weekend at the coast. Her response: "Have you eaten? It sounds like your blood sugar is low." That's a rando wife. She basically told me to rule 5.

Cheers

Leisesturm

When your garden hose tires are the right kind for the roads/riding you do ... Bontrager H2 Hardcase 2.0" in downtown and close-in Portland, OR 9mi r/t daily, more on weekends. 0 flats first 4 years! Stopped carrying flat repair gear during year 2. Flat in year 5 thought tires were bust. No Bonties anywhere, bought Big Apples and Rhynodillo tube protectors, but did not mount. Rode H2's 2 more years! Rear flat year 7. Mounted one of the Apples/tube protectors. Front still using H2. Bought pair Marathon Plus will mount these soon.

chaadster

Great post reflecting the realities of dealing with punctures.

So many people have this basic notion that if tubeless doesn’t fix every possible issue, it’s a stupid system or worthless. No, tubeless isn’t perfect, but it provides an extra layer of protection which, as your post keenly illustrates, could save someone from having to spend time fixing a flat when it’s least convenient.

The other thing your wonderful post highlights is how tubeless can be better, particularly in terms of the tire/rim interface. You mentioned being unable to reseat a bead, but a perhaps ideal system would have a bead that stays locked when deflated. I have one tubeless wheel that was perfect with Schwalbe Pro Ones, in that they mounted easily but stayed locked in place even when suddenly deflated. Hutchinsons also performed thusly, and could be ridden fully deflated without the bead coming off. Handy. Once I messed up and locked up a rear Galaktic on a downhill stop, and blew out an inch-long flap from the center of the tread down to the rim; no sealant or fix for that! It was near the end of the ride, near dusk, crazy muggy, and I was close to home, so I called for a ride. Sitting there waiting, the mosquitos mobbed me, so I jumped on the bike and rode the flat a couple of miles until I ran into my ride. It was nice having the ability to do that.

wolfchild

There are plenty of tires with puncture protection which don't ride like garden hoses.

daihard 

That's exactly why I've switched to tubeless tires. I'm very clumsy. Luckily, I've only had a few flats in the last 5-6 years, but each time it happened, it took me more than half an hour to fix it, or I ended up walking my bike home. At least topping off the sealant and/or plugging a puncture seems to be much easier for me to do than fixing a flat.

elcruxio

Name some

staehpj1

These things are relative. Tires with some puncture protection may be considered to ride like a garden hose in one usage and like a decent responsive tire in another. For example for loaded long distance touring a gatorskin might be considered more on the responsive side. On your race bike it would be a garden hose. That said some might use it as a training tire for harsher environments even on their race bike.

wolfchild

Pointless debate, since every person has their own interpretation of what good or bad ride quality means to them as an individual. I've tested many different brands of tires over the years and never came across a good quality tire which rides like a garden hose.

tomato coupe

You claimed there are plenty of tires with puncture protection that don't ride like garden hoses. If naming some examples makes it a pointless debate, then that's on you.