Harold74

Most do have a hard time with that. I get it.

Yes, Lance was knowledgeable, willing, and integral as you say. Does any of that preclude the possibility that Lance himself might have been better off if PED's didn't exist as an option to begin with? If not, then I submit that Lance has a valid claim to a version of victimhood.

In the absence of PEDs, I feel that it is somewhere between conceivable and probable that Lance could have had all of the glory that he achieved with fare less of the shame. And that is a shame.

I'm not saying that Lance was a kind hearted boyscout by any stretch of the imagination. He was an utterly ruthless competitor. What I'm saying is that he is one of many people who suffered negative consequences as a result of the existence of PEDs in sport.

If the stuff that I've read and watched is to be believed, there was a time between Lance's world championship win and cancer where Lance himself a) was frustrated by the EPO use of others and b) resisted EPO use.

Harold74

Supposedly Floyd Landis posted some pretty great numbers too, better than Lance's. Does that mean that Floyd should be considered beyond reproach?

This is the same argument that people once used to defend Lance Armstrong from his accusers. Do you not see the irony?

Note that I did not say that I was certain that Greg doped. Rather, I said that I feel that it is probable that Greg doped. Those statements are different in an important way.

Atlas Shrugged

Lance to the cycling industry and the ASO.

"You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall -- you need me on that wall."

Atlas Shrugged

A bit touchy on this one! Look at Greg's history, and there were more than a few lawsuits in his wake. In fact, more of his business venture seems to have resulted in some form of lawsuit than there have been successes. I point this out as the saying goes those in glass houses. Lance on the other hand has been extremely successful in his outside ventures both past and present and has rehabilitated himself both within the greater cycling community as well as his business ventures. Presently runs a VC firm specializing in sport-related ventures and all it seems to be doing very well.

Rogerogeroge

Did some jerk from the Italian team jam his pump in your front wheel, sending you over the bars?

Rogerogeroge

You could ask chatGPT to summarize the podcast in less than 200 words.

Eric F 

Luckily for indyfabz, that team was busy racing in Indiana at the time.

indyfabz

No, but Eric Heiden from 7-11 tried to. His sister, Beth, told him about the time I couldn’t stop staring at her legs when I and some high school classmates and teachers ran into her while hiking Camel’s Hump in Vermont. Talk about amazing guads.

True story. (The part about running into her in Vermont.)

livedarklions

Your "logic" is completely circular. He's probably guilty because he's a cyclist and cyclists are probably guilty because cyclists are probably guilty. This is not how probabilities work, and you just don't have any coherent standard of proof stated here. Frankly, I am being insulting because I think what you are doing here is really scummy. And accusing you of bad writing and reasoning is not Lance-like at all, the individualized proof of it is plain for everyone to see.

​​​​​​The argument that we should presume all cyclists prior to LA's bust were guilty because presuming otherwise is what allowed LA to get away with it is ridiculous. I suspect your real motivation is to preserve your ability to see LA as "some sort of role model", so you need to burden shift to make Lemond prove a negative because actual proof (not empty rhetoric about probability) is completely lacking. It's a hell of a lot easier to rationalize LA's crap if that's what champions had to do from time immemorial. Lemond is so dissonant with your cognitives that you have to character assassinate him with bs about "probabilities."

livedarklions

Pure sophistry. He's probably guilty because other people definitely were, and arguing that you can't legitimately claim that without any individual proof of guilt is somehow ironic because LA convinced people to ignore reams of individual evidence against him. Those statements are different, but not in an important way. You're using his "probable guilt" to call him a "probable" hypocrite, an both claims are based on no proof against him WHATSOEVER!

livedarklions

And Lance, on the other other hand, deliberately torpedoed Lemond's business relationship with Trek.
What does any of that have to do with whether or not Lemond doped? Yes, I get mad when people make groundless accusations of criminal and fraudulent acts based on absurd assertions of "probability".

Atlas Shrugged

Originally Posted by BillyD
If this doesn't go 10 pages I'm hanging up my blue stars.

You’re setting the bar too low. Try for at least 25.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This was one of the last comments on the Lemond movie thread recently and it just hit one page and stalled. Mention good old Lance and we are at 100 posts in one day and still going. The guy can move the dial that’s for sure.

This bizarre idolization of Lemond is what got us to the problem with Armstrong. Like all of us, highly flawed individuals. From a personal experience I met Armstrong post 1st retirement and he was nothing but fun and entertaining truly a charmer. I met Merckx in Austria outside of Salzburg, he was staying at the same hotel as me and was a total grump (obviously that is no slight could just been have a crappy couple of days).

Koyote

Ted Bundy was reportedly quite charming, too.
​​​​​​​

Atlas Shrugged

​​​​​​​Why is it that Lance still has a very large circle of friends and associates from his cycling life, from Cavendish to Hincapie. Has a very inclusive social circle and extremely successful business life.

Yet Greg always seems to be moping and complaining about how he was hard done by. From his experience with different teams, teammates, father, business partners there is always drama.

Koyote

You met Lance once, and have apparently never met LeMond.

I'm not sure that I would draw any broad conclusions about either of them from that meager experience, but that's just me.

LesterOfPuppets

Getting shot by your brother-in-law changes a man!

seypat

I think the nail in the coffin for LA is that he continued to tell the big lie to Vince Vaughn and the rest of the Average Joe's. If he'd come clean to Vince, the pirate and the rest of their team, people might show him some sympathy.

Wildwood 

The medical interview I want to hear - with a clinical psychiatrist = why did Lance have such a big ego that he could cheat more than everyone else, brag and lie bigger, intimidate & destroy others (including women) knowing his success was a sham.

and why, as a disgraced human being, anyone should care about his immoral & corrupt statements of opinion.

No one questions the strength of his resolve or cycling abilities, only his degenerate morals and total lack of ethics or remorse.

Ask Ms Crow, who he dumped, when she got cancer. Scumbag American, dishonors us. Got what he deserved in the end - humiliation and stripped of all his cheated awards.

Lance - just go away totally.

Wildwood 

Greg rebuilt a cycling biz, Lance hangs with doper friends. What a comparison of greatness!

OldTryGuy

I wonder how many here can physically and psychologically relate to the effects of having had an Orchiectomy and additional cancers???? Not condoning his actions but I can understand a *mindset* since I had a bilateral Orchiectomy with additional drugs to eliminate the testosterone production of my Adrenal Glands due to PCa (Prostate Cancer) diagnosis.

I'm just a regular cyclist whose body lost its natural ability to build muscle and recover following exercise and I believe that maybe I can relate to being at an ELITE LEVEL of a sport I love and having that ability of being in the lead ripped away.

*anecdotal posting* -- The Pathologist who performed the biopsy on my testicles added a side bar note with smiley - *I can officially confirm that 10 pounds of balls can fit in a 5 pound sack.* YUP, the fastest 10 pound loss of weight in my life and made long distance cycling sooo much more enjoyable along with easier climbing efforts and hitting those high notes when singing.

p.s. - suffering a *pedal disengagement* while climbing is NOT A PROBLEM.

indyfabz

I saw Greg at the velodrome in Trexlertown, PA. He was was about to go for a ride with some friends. He was chatting and smiling.

indyfabz

That's Tony Rominger in the pink puffy coat. He won that Giro that year.

livedarklions

How is it that you LA apologists always manage to turn any discussion of his completely inexcusable behavior into a trial of someone else?

​​​​​​​Whataboutism at its worst.

livedarklions

Sorry, but since he played the "an attack on me is an attack on cancer survivors and my charity" card as much as he did to silence people, I don't think he gets to hide behind that as any kind of excuse. He left way too many Livestrong people feeling completely used and betrayed for me to see his focus on this as anything other than a cynical ploy to protect himself.

OldTryGuy

NOT agreeing with giving him a pass by *Playing a Get Out of Jail Free* card, just saying I am there and can understand some psychological effects that might result. Hard to explain but it is real.