fishboat

Yes..it appears in our brave new world, facts are based on who speaks the loudest or most often. Reality is of lesser importance.

chaadster

Progress! I knew I could bring you along! However, you flatter yourself by saying “obviously,” which isn’t a good look given you had no idea what was going on just a few posts ago.

Ironfish653

Apparently, the only way chaadster can change direction on a bicycle is by crossing up and backing it in like a flattracker. Guy must drop watt-bombs like a B-52.



Either that, or the collective experience of everyone who's gone through an MSF course didn't really happen.

chaadster

Both incorrect. Not surprising, but still all wrong.

chaadster

Apropos to the moment with the recent re-mention of MSF courses, I think it’s worth mentioning— if only for context of the discussion— that my understanding is that countersteering was first an automotive term, discussed widely in auto rags at least by the ‘60s, and didn’t enter the two-wheeled domain until the late ‘70s, I think popularized by Keith Code; I have a copy of Twist of the Wrist from my old moto days, and I remember reading him in MotorCyclist on the matter like he was the dude who invented it. When cyclists started picking up on it, I’m not sure, but recall Brandt seeming like a pioneer when he was talking about it in the early ‘00s.

PeteHski

Anecdotally, having worked my entire career in professional 4-wheeled motorsport engineering in the UK, the term "countersteer" is pretty much non-existent. The only time I've ever come across it is in the motorcycle world and discussions about bicycle steering and NOT in the sense of correcting a slide.

ofajen

Why not? Monty Python’s “The Epilogue” determined the existence of God by a wrestling result of two falls to a submission.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2usg7s

Otto

rsbob 

In other news: Discovered yesterday that have been initiating counter steering on fast turns the whole time without recognizing it. Must be an innate rather than conscious thing for me. If I consciously think about it, it doesn’t happen. Interesting pair-a-docs. People smarter than me can probably do it willfully.

pepperbelly

It is subtle steering inputs, almost unnoticeable.

urbanknight

For what it's worth, I heard it mentioned in the racing schools I attended. Then again, it was mentioned as something mostly reserved for "drifting competitions or rally racing".

Yes, I think one way to see it in action is to stand at the end of a straight section of a race course and watch the peloton (as dead-on as possible) as they set up for the turn. You should notice a very slight twitch in the opposite direction right before they lean into the turn. None of the riders are consciously thinking about it, it's simply how they naturally/intuitively initiate the lean.

PeteHski

Was this in the US? "Opposite-Lock" is the term commonly used in the UK for correcting a slide/drifting.

wolfchild

I knew this was going to get really complicated.

john m flores 

I have a Newspapers.com account which is by no means definitive but they have a lot of US newspapers in their collection. This is the first mention I could find of countersteering and it is in relation to cars. This is from 1962.

urbanknight

Yes the US, and I'm not surprised we have to snub our nose at British terms and do it our own way even if it's less accurate. However, wouldn't "lock" suggest steering all the way to the limit of the wheel?

pepperbelly

In a rear wheel drive vehicle you steer into a skid. In a front wheel drive vehicle you steer away from the skid.
Neither of these techniques are counter steering like used on motorcycles and bicycles.

Chuck M 

I don't know, I've not thought too much about it. My bike tend to turn in the direction the front wheel goes.. Either I turn the bars or I lean and the bars turn.

What I want to know is about Thermos bottles. If I put something hot in it it stays hot. If I put something cold in it it stays cold. But how does it know?

chaadster

Very interesting; thank you. It corroborates my take on the history, but also most interestingly, it establishes an early reference for use of the term “countersteer” in the UK and suggests the term was not common in the US at that time, given the author’s explicit note that countersteer is what “we Americans” call steering into a skid.

As you say, it’s not definitive, but the author does have the title, “automobile editor” and was in England on a story, suggesting This Week was not some small town mag, as well as the author having some famlliarity, if not expertise, in the field of automobiles.

A solid reference, and much better than my own, aging recollections as a voracious, young reader of an inherited collection of vintage Road & Track magazines!

chaadster

Yikes! Terrible advice all around, that, and yes, countersteering like that is *exactly* what you’d do on a bike/moto if you’re rear wheel was in a skid.

The video upthread was pretty explicit, but this his article puts the latter point quite plainly as well:

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-d...ut-of-skid.htm

pepperbelly

I have had to steer into skids in rain, snow and on ice. It’s s reflex now after driving since ‘74.

chaadster

Respect. I suspect the disconnect is in the different ways cars can skid, but that's probably too far afield for this discussion, and it should suffice to say that that when the rear end of a bike, car, or moto is coming around the front end in a slide, the correct control response is countersteering.

FWD countersteering all day here; yes, it’s deliberately induced and not a situation you’re likely to find yourself in on a grocery run, but plainly countsteer is a control method for FWD cars:

Maelochs

Excellent information. I will keep this in mind when riding my FWD bicycle.

PeteHski

It does imply that when taken literally, but it's the common term used in UK motorsport for any level of steering correction, not just the max limit. Counter-steer is a more accurate description, but we generally don't use that term for whatever reason. I only ever hear the term "counter-steer" in relation to 2-wheeled steering and nearly always referring to normal turn initiation, which has far more relevance in this discussion.

GamblerGORD53

Wheel lock?? LOL That's what you do so the thief can't drive away. LOL. Try explain that to granny. Couldn't come up with a more STUPID obtuse term in a million years.
That Prelude is countersteering?? LOL hahahaha ...... Like I said, it's keeping the front wheels pointing in the forward DIRECTION. NO quackery anti-science science theory involved. It's acting like a pendulum, with the front wheels as the fulcrum. The rear swings, but the front wheels DO NOT.
So this week I was trying some things with my CCM 3 speed. I yanked the bar several inches. The bike balked and physics too over. The wheel went back the other way before it settled into the turn. But you are sure it's subconscious thinking or something. LOL .
But yah, if the wheel is turned left already when you pull right, then there won't be a delay.

urbanknight

So just out of curiosity, would you call this maneuver "opposite lock"? Or do you Brits just not want to talk about roundy round racing? And yes, I know this is way off from what we're talking about with bicycles.

PeteHski

As I said “opposite lock” is a term I only hear in relation to 4-wheeled vehicles. Never heard it applied to bikes. Speedway was very popular here in the 70s (Belle Vue etc). I don’t follow it myself, but seems to be getting more TV coverage again now.