What's the deal with Walmart and Shimano?
01-22-24, 08:10 AM
#76
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01-22-24, 08:18 AM
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If you owned a reputable brand with a solid history of making quality items (it could be anything) and you then decide to make crap items so you can partner with a company that makes crap, how is that a good look for your brand as a whole? You can certainly argue that the Shimano components on WM bikes are not representative of the Shimano brand as a whole, but that's just a weak rationalization to justify the manufacture and sale of crap. Crap is never a good look for any company. Is that clear enough?
01-22-24, 08:48 AM
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.I didnt intentionally ignore your point, I can say that with confidence since I, you know, tried to respond to what I thought your point was.
Now yeah maybe I did miss your point. I thought I responded to your point, but if I didnt, my bad. I went back and read your comment that I responded to and am still unsure how I missed your point.
- There was discussion amongst many posters about licensing a brand out and examples given. There was discussion on if this was good or bad.
- You commented, to nobody in particular since there was no quote or @ used, that the Shimano brand being on Walmart bikes is not a good look for Shimano. You then cite personal experience with having to work on low end Box Store bikes.
- I questioned you on how it is not a good look for Shimano. That seems to directly respond to your point. Your point was that it isnt a good look and I disagreed with your point and gave my opinion on why I disagree. Based on your full post, I inferred that you feel it isnt a good look because the brand name will be associated with low end junk components. Is that not correct?...were you not trying to claim that? If you werent trying to claim that, then what exactly was your point?
- Multiple people 'liked' my post, so they seem to agree with my analysis/response to your question. Did they also miss the point?
ETA - I see you responded to someone else who also didnt understand your point. Your response is below...
If you owned a reputable brand with a solid history of making quality items (it could be anything) and you then decide to make crap items so you can partner with a company that makes crap, how is that a good look for your brand as a whole? You can certainly argue that the Shimano components on WM bikes are not representative of the Shimano brand as a whole, but that's just a weak rationalization to justify the manufacture and sale of crap. Crap is never a good look for any company. Is that clear enough?
- Not everything needs to be a 'good look' for a business decision to make sense from a financial perspective and/or a reputational perspective. Companies dont need to only ever produce products/goods/services that make them look great, if their reputation doesnt get hurt by producing lower end product/goods/services alongside their better stuff.
- There are many products/goods/services that are neither a 'good look' nor a 'bad look'. This wide middle ground is where Shimano's low end drivetrain stuff exists. Nobody that is a cycling enthusiast holds low end products against Shimano when it comes to the drivetrain components they would use(Tiagra and higher, for example). Enthusiast cyclists easily understand that the quality has nothing to do with the quality of the other, and they easily see that pricing reflects that differentiation.
- Shimano has had entry level drivetrain components for 50 years- I am just going back to the bike boom era only here because half a century of offering both low end and high end components should tell you that it definitely isnt a bad look for Shimano to sell low end components, and maybe they have a good finger on the pulse of what is or isnt a good look for their brand when it comes to products they offer.
- It could be very easily argued that it is a good look for Shimano to sell entry level components and partner with Big Box brands. They are offering a bike shop brand name to the bike, and that means the bike isnt spec'd with SRAM or Microshift, their competitors. Nobody that buys a $100 bike and will eventually buy a bike shop quality/priced bike will avoid Shimano in that second purchase due to their low end bike's drivetrain being heavy/clunky. What they will have is the Shimano name association when they go to spend $800 on their first quality entry level hybrid or MTB.
Titleist sells golf balls that run the spectrum of cost. Nobody hits an inexpensive entry level Titleist and then thinks its a bad look for Titleist to make and sell entry level golf balls when they also make Tour quality golf balls. Heck, Titleist(many models) golf balls are even sold in Big Box stores so there is a direct connection between Titleist and cheap large retailers...yet it consistently outnumbers all other balls combined by double when players are surveyed on what they use. This is also true at high level amateur events and college events, so lets not claim its a sponsorship reason.
There are other similar examples, to be clear. These things may not seem like a good look to you, but that doesnt mean they are a bad look, and it also doesnt mean they are not a good look.
Last edited by mstateglfr; 01-22-24 at 09:13 AM.
01-22-24, 11:05 AM
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It is such a "bad look" for Shimano that the company is as healthy as ever after what, 50 years of looking bad?
01-22-24, 12:14 PM
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I suspect Shimano sells a whole lot more big box level stuff at a higher profit margin than Dura Ace. I also suspect a person buying Dura Ace really doesn't care they sell a RD-TZ31-GS as well, if they even know at all. The big box guys will gladly pop for a 3 cent Shimano sticker to go on the bike if they feel it will steer the customer into making a purchase of a product that is mostly going to sit unused by the purchaser because they recognize the name.
01-22-24, 12:27 PM
#82
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I didnt intentionally ignore your point, I can say that with confidence since I, you know, tried to respond to what I thought your point was.
Now yeah maybe I did miss your point. I thought I responded to your point, but if I didnt, my bad. I went back and read your comment that I responded to and am still unsure how I missed your point.
- There was discussion amongst many posters about licensing a brand out and examples given. There was discussion on if this was good or bad.
- You commented, to nobody in particular since there was no quote or @ used, that the Shimano brand being on Walmart bikes is not a good look for Shimano. You then cite personal experience with having to work onlow end Box Store bikes.
- I questioned you on how it is not a good look for Shimano. That seems to directly respond to your point. Your point was that it isnt a good look and I disagreed with your point and gave my opinion on why I disagree. Based on your full post, I inferred that you feel it isnt a good look because the brand name will be associated with low end junk components. Is that not correct?...were you not trying to claim that? If you werent trying to claim that, then what exactly was your point?
- Multiple people 'liked' my post, so they seem to agree with my analysis/response to your question. Did they also miss the point?
ETA - I see you responded to someone else who also didnt understand your point. Your response is below...
I see that you claim you were using 'good look' as a literal good look when it is commonly used in Western English as 'thats bad'. So you are claiming it isnt a good look in that it doesnt make their brand look better so they shouldnt do it. Gotcha. Ok a couple responses-
- Not everything needs to be a 'good look' for a business decision to make sense from a financial perspective and/or a reputational perspective. Companies dont need to only ever produce products/goods/services that make them look great, if their reputation doesnt get hurt by producing lower end product/goods/services alongside their better stuff.
- There are many products/goods/services that are neither a 'good look' nor a 'bad look'. This wide middle ground is where Shimano's low end drivetrain stuff exists. Nobody that is a cycling enthusiast holds low end products against Shimano when it comes to the drivetrain components they would use(Tiagra and higher, for example). Enthusiast cyclists easily understand that the quality has nothing to do with the quality of the other, and they easily see that pricing reflects that differentiation.
- Shimano has had entry level drivetrain components for 50 years- I am just going back to the bike boom era only here because half a century of offering both low end and high end components should tell you that it definitely isnt a bad look for Shimano to sell low end components, and maybe they have a good finger on the pulse of what is or isnt a good look for their brand when it comes to products they offer.
- It could be very easily argued that it is a good look for Shimano to sell entry level components and partner with Big Box brands. They are offering a bike shop brand name to the bike, and that means the bike isnt spec'd with SRAM or Microshift, their competitors. Nobody that buys a $100 bike and will eventually buy a bike shop quality/priced bike will avoid Shimano in that second purchase due to their low end bike's drivetrain being heavy/clunky. What they will have is the Shimano name association when they go to spend $800 on their first quality entry level hybrid or MTB.
Titleist sells golf balls that run the spectrum of cost. Nobody hits an inexpensive entry level Titleist and then thinks its a bad look for Titleist to make and sell entry level golf balls when they also make Tour quality golf balls. Heck, Titleist(many models) golf balls are even sold in Big Box stores so there is a direct connection between Titleist and cheap large retailers...yet it consistently outnumbers all other balls combined by double when players are surveyed on what they use. This is also true at high level amateur events and college events, so lets not claim its a sponsorship reason.
There are other similar examples, to be clear. These things may not seem like a good look to you, but that doesnt mean they are a bad look, and it also doesnt mean they are not a good look.
Now yeah maybe I did miss your point. I thought I responded to your point, but if I didnt, my bad. I went back and read your comment that I responded to and am still unsure how I missed your point.
- There was discussion amongst many posters about licensing a brand out and examples given. There was discussion on if this was good or bad.
- You commented, to nobody in particular since there was no quote or @ used, that the Shimano brand being on Walmart bikes is not a good look for Shimano. You then cite personal experience with having to work on
- I questioned you on how it is not a good look for Shimano. That seems to directly respond to your point. Your point was that it isnt a good look and I disagreed with your point and gave my opinion on why I disagree. Based on your full post, I inferred that you feel it isnt a good look because the brand name will be associated with low end junk components. Is that not correct?...were you not trying to claim that? If you werent trying to claim that, then what exactly was your point?
- Multiple people 'liked' my post, so they seem to agree with my analysis/response to your question. Did they also miss the point?
ETA - I see you responded to someone else who also didnt understand your point. Your response is below...
- Not everything needs to be a 'good look' for a business decision to make sense from a financial perspective and/or a reputational perspective. Companies dont need to only ever produce products/goods/services that make them look great, if their reputation doesnt get hurt by producing lower end product/goods/services alongside their better stuff.
- There are many products/goods/services that are neither a 'good look' nor a 'bad look'. This wide middle ground is where Shimano's low end drivetrain stuff exists. Nobody that is a cycling enthusiast holds low end products against Shimano when it comes to the drivetrain components they would use(Tiagra and higher, for example). Enthusiast cyclists easily understand that the quality has nothing to do with the quality of the other, and they easily see that pricing reflects that differentiation.
- Shimano has had entry level drivetrain components for 50 years- I am just going back to the bike boom era only here because half a century of offering both low end and high end components should tell you that it definitely isnt a bad look for Shimano to sell low end components, and maybe they have a good finger on the pulse of what is or isnt a good look for their brand when it comes to products they offer.
- It could be very easily argued that it is a good look for Shimano to sell entry level components and partner with Big Box brands. They are offering a bike shop brand name to the bike, and that means the bike isnt spec'd with SRAM or Microshift, their competitors. Nobody that buys a $100 bike and will eventually buy a bike shop quality/priced bike will avoid Shimano in that second purchase due to their low end bike's drivetrain being heavy/clunky. What they will have is the Shimano name association when they go to spend $800 on their first quality entry level hybrid or MTB.
Titleist sells golf balls that run the spectrum of cost. Nobody hits an inexpensive entry level Titleist and then thinks its a bad look for Titleist to make and sell entry level golf balls when they also make Tour quality golf balls. Heck, Titleist(many models) golf balls are even sold in Big Box stores so there is a direct connection between Titleist and cheap large retailers...yet it consistently outnumbers all other balls combined by double when players are surveyed on what they use. This is also true at high level amateur events and college events, so lets not claim its a sponsorship reason.
There are other similar examples, to be clear. These things may not seem like a good look to you, but that doesnt mean they are a bad look, and it also doesnt mean they are not a good look.
Happy riding
Last edited by Turnin_Wrenches; 01-22-24 at 12:41 PM.
01-22-24, 12:34 PM
#83
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You seem to understand the point I made (which is quite simple and straightforward), but you then go on to mischaracterize my comments and are also trying to take the discussion off in an entirely different direction. I'm not sure why, but I'm moving on the greener pastures. Happy riding
It appears you don't want to explain, so OK then.
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01-22-24, 12:47 PM
#84
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I also edited my most recent comment because after re-reading your comments I realized you don't understand what I actually said. Hence, no need to explain because it's already spelled out very clearly for you if you just take it at face value. All of your "added comments" (as you call them) are superfluous and off-topic.
01-22-24, 12:54 PM
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Whatever .... absent the drama it seems one poster thought hat it would hurt Shimano to have its name plastered on Wally-bikes, and others pointed out that Shimano is still by far the biggest group set manufacturer on the planet so it seems the stickers aren't effective as poison.
Plus, Shimano helps a lot of people catch fish .... but as the adage explains, fish don't need bicycles ... so ultimately, what does it all mean?
No matter how fast I have ever ridden, I have never caughta fish, and most of my bikes have Shimano group sets .... its that because of the Wally-bike poison effect?
We need to do more sciencing on this.
Plus, Shimano helps a lot of people catch fish .... but as the adage explains, fish don't need bicycles ... so ultimately, what does it all mean?
No matter how fast I have ever ridden, I have never caughta fish, and most of my bikes have Shimano group sets .... its that because of the Wally-bike poison effect?
We need to do more sciencing on this.
01-22-24, 02:02 PM
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01-22-24, 02:40 PM
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Baby Bike Bolts isn’t any fun now that you can’t see the milk carton photo. Just thinking about that photo makes me laugh. Probably the funniest thing I have ever seen on BF.
01-22-24, 03:43 PM
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01-22-24, 05:21 PM
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I was riding my bike today, and it dawned on me that all my Shimano parts say Shimano - the shifters, the deraillers, the freewheel, and probably other stuff. On the bikes I saw at Walmart, I'd guess they have exactly one Shimano part installed on them - the rear derailleur. What are the odds that the rest of Walmart's genuine "Shimano equipped" bikes are put together with generic no-name parts?
01-22-24, 06:05 PM
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I was riding my bike today, and it dawned on me that all my Shimano parts say Shimano - the shifters, the deraillers, the freewheel, and probably other stuff. On the bikes I saw at Walmart, I'd guess they have exactly one Shimano part installed on them - the rear derailleur. What are the odds that the rest of Walmart's genuine "Shimano equipped" bikes are put together with generic no-name parts?
01-22-24, 07:40 PM
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01-22-24, 07:48 PM
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I was riding my bike today, and it dawned on me that all my Shimano parts say Shimano - the shifters, the deraillers, the freewheel, and probably other stuff. On the bikes I saw at Walmart, I'd guess they have exactly one Shimano part installed on them - the rear derailleur. What are the odds that the rest of Walmart's genuine "Shimano equipped" bikes are put together with generic no-name parts?
BTW…Not one of my DA 9000 components reads “SHIMANO”. Neither do the FD or RD on my touring bike. The hubs do, in tiny lettering.
Last edited by indyfabz; 01-22-24 at 08:05 PM.
01-22-24, 07:56 PM
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Think about how many of those Shimano MEGA RANGE freewheels/cassettes have been sold through the years. Talk about a money maker!
01-22-24, 08:03 PM
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01-22-24, 08:08 PM
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It matters to me because I'm interested in the business end of it.
It probably matters to the brand managers at Shimano and Walmart.
It probably doesn't matter to you or 99.9% of the rest of polite society.
Of course, that other 0.1% of society might be shopping for a Walmart bike.
I see it as a consumer protection issue. DeWalt frequently puts together cordless power tool kits for Home Depot with only one upgraded tool or battery in the kit and markets the kits in a way that leads people to believe that everything is similarly upgraded. If Walmart/Shimano engage in similar shenanigans, i would want to know so I can be more cautious when dealing with either.
It probably matters to the brand managers at Shimano and Walmart.
It probably doesn't matter to you or 99.9% of the rest of polite society.
Of course, that other 0.1% of society might be shopping for a Walmart bike.
I see it as a consumer protection issue. DeWalt frequently puts together cordless power tool kits for Home Depot with only one upgraded tool or battery in the kit and markets the kits in a way that leads people to believe that everything is similarly upgraded. If Walmart/Shimano engage in similar shenanigans, i would want to know so I can be more cautious when dealing with either.
01-22-24, 08:14 PM
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I walked through the bike isle at Target today. I should have checked to see what the Schwinns were equipped with.
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01-22-24, 08:16 PM
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It matters to me because I'm interested in the business end of it.
It probably matters to the brand managers at Shimano and Walmart.
It probably doesn't matter to you or 99.9% of the rest of polite society.
Of course, that other 0.1% of society might be shopping for a Walmart bike.
I see it as a consumer protection issue. DeWalt frequently puts together cordless power tool kits for Home Depot with only one upgraded tool or battery in the kit and markets the kits in a way that leads people to believe that everything is similarly upgraded. If Walmart/Shimano engage in similar shenanigans, i would want to know so I can be more cautious when dealing with either.
It probably matters to the brand managers at Shimano and Walmart.
It probably doesn't matter to you or 99.9% of the rest of polite society.
Of course, that other 0.1% of society might be shopping for a Walmart bike.
I see it as a consumer protection issue. DeWalt frequently puts together cordless power tool kits for Home Depot with only one upgraded tool or battery in the kit and markets the kits in a way that leads people to believe that everything is similarly upgraded. If Walmart/Shimano engage in similar shenanigans, i would want to know so I can be more cautious when dealing with either.
01-22-24, 08:19 PM
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Totally - I can't look at a random unmarked part on a Walmart bike and say who made it.
Let's call it an informed guess. If Walmart loves Shimano so much that they go to the trouble of putting obvious logos on the chainstays and the rear derailleur, I don't think it's much of a leap to expect them to do the same for other Shimano parts.
Let's call it an informed guess. If Walmart loves Shimano so much that they go to the trouble of putting obvious logos on the chainstays and the rear derailleur, I don't think it's much of a leap to expect them to do the same for other Shimano parts.