A cyclist passed me while I was turning L at intersection.
#26
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3792 Post(s)
Liked 1,055 Times
in
797 Posts
Only slightly related, but what do you all do for signaling when stopped at an intersection where you will be turning? Do you stand there with your arm out as you wait for the light to change, or only signal when it turns green and you're about to go, or...? (Luckily, it is something I've very rarely come across, and usually when it has it's obvious I'm in a left-turn lane so my intention is pretty clear, but I feel sort of silly hanging out there with my arm out...)
Likes For work4bike:
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,688
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1126 Post(s)
Liked 254 Times
in
205 Posts
If you are in a Left turn lane, then the cyclist should not have passed you on your left, He wouldn't not have done that if he was driving a car would he? Then he shouldn't have done that on his bike either. I noted you were not making any hand signals showing your intentions, while you should have been doing that, the other rider AGAIN should not have passed you as he did. He was an idiot, thankfully you saw the situation happening before you made your turn and the other rider causing an accident.
Likes For rekmeyata:
#28
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Only slightly related, but what do you all do for signaling when stopped at an intersection where you will be turning? Do you stand there with your arm out as you wait for the light to change, or only signal when it turns green and you're about to go, or...? (Luckily, it is something I've very rarely come across, and usually when it has it's obvious I'm in a left-turn lane so my intention is pretty clear, but I feel sort of silly hanging out there with my arm out...)
It's only going to be seen by the cars directly behind and in front of me, so if it's at a light, I hold the arm out, keep it there for a few seconds, then resume to the handlebars to perform the turn when the light changes. If it's a long light, I might repeat the gesture a couple times in case someone else came up to the intersection. I don't bother signaling a right turn from the right lane at all unless there's something unusual about the intersection.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: San Diego, California
Posts: 4,076
Bikes: Velo Orange Piolet
Mentioned: 28 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2228 Post(s)
Liked 2,011 Times
in
972 Posts
Only slightly related, but what do you all do for signaling when stopped at an intersection where you will be turning? Do you stand there with your arm out as you wait for the light to change, or only signal when it turns green and you're about to go, or...? (Luckily, it is something I've very rarely come across, and usually when it has it's obvious I'm in a left-turn lane so my intention is pretty clear, but I feel sort of silly hanging out there with my arm out...)
But I try to avoid those kinds of intersections whenever possible.
Likes For tyrion:
#30
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
If you are in a Left turn lane, then the cyclist should not have passed you on your left, He wouldn't not have done that if he was driving a car would he? Then he shouldn't have done that on his bike either. I noted you were not making any hand signals showing your intentions, while you should have been doing that, the other rider AGAIN should not have passed you as he did. He was an idiot, thankfully you saw the situation happening before you made your turn and the other rider causing an accident.
You would be right if it was a left turn lane, but it wasn't a left turn lane, it was a go straight OR turn left lane. There was a left turn lane to the left of it and a right turn lane to the right of it. If you're in the center lane and don't signal, I wouldn't have guessed you intended to turn left and two bikes in a traffic lane is perfectly acceptable. I don't see how anyone was an idiot in the situation as described.
Likes For livedarklions:
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 701
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 347 Post(s)
Liked 418 Times
in
250 Posts
You would be right if it was a left turn lane, but it wasn't a left turn lane, it was a go straight OR turn left lane. There was a left turn lane to the left of it and a right turn lane to the right of it. If you're in the center lane and don't signal, I wouldn't have guessed you intended to turn left and two bikes in a traffic lane is perfectly acceptable. I don't see how anyone was an idiot in the situation as described.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NE Indiana
Posts: 8,688
Bikes: 2020 Masi Giramondo 700c; 2013 Lynskey Peloton; 1992 Giant Rincon; 1989 Dawes needs parts; 1985 Trek 660; 1985 Fuji Club; 1984 Schwinn Voyager; 1984 Miyata 612; 1977 Raleigh Competition GS
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1126 Post(s)
Liked 254 Times
in
205 Posts
You would be right if it was a left turn lane, but it wasn't a left turn lane, it was a go straight OR turn left lane. There was a left turn lane to the left of it and a right turn lane to the right of it. If you're in the center lane and don't signal, I wouldn't have guessed you intended to turn left and two bikes in a traffic lane is perfectly acceptable. I don't see how anyone was an idiot in the situation as described.
Likes For rekmeyata:
#33
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Sorry but I see an idiot. Even if the lane was a dual purpose lane, either turn left from it or go straight ahead, the other cyclists should have treated it like he was in a car, would he had passed a car setting there? NO, nor should he had passed a cyclist. It's just basic rules of the road that apply to motorists the same way it applies to cyclists using the road.
I don't buy the notion that we have to pretend we're riding underpowered cars and I never will. We're going to get passed in lanes, if you can't handle that, don't take the lane. I'd need to actually see the intersection before I could be sure whether or not I would've passed, I'm certainly not calling someone an idiot for doing so.
Likes For livedarklions:
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 1,838
Bikes: 1996 Trek 970 ZX Single Track 2x11
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 622 Post(s)
Liked 575 Times
in
436 Posts
Sorry but I see an idiot. Even if the lane was a dual purpose lane, either turn left from it or go straight ahead, the other cyclists should have treated it like he was in a car, would he had passed a car setting there? NO, nor should he had passed a cyclist. It's just basic rules of the road that apply to motorists the same way it applies to cyclists using the road.
Patience is a virtue. There's good reason for that saying existing.
Being "non-virtuous" in a vehicle situation on public roads can be a deadly thing.
Far safer, more transparent (in intentions) and reasonable to simply be patient and await the clearing of the queue ahead. Particularly important in a mixed-direction type lane as described in the scenario. Passing rapidly and unexpectedly simply creates great potential for a crash that needn't exist.
Occupying a mixed-mode mixed-speed public street really isn't all that difficult. But it can get particularly difficult when people "push" like that.
Likes For Clyde1820:
#35
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,853
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2136 Post(s)
Liked 1,649 Times
in
830 Posts
I don't know of any states that imbue cyclists with "rights." The question is does your state law allow that kind of pass? Have you mentioned what state you are in and have you read your cycling laws? I have a hunch it is not permissible under the law. I certainly wouldn't pass a cyclist on the left under similar circumstances. I won't sit at a light with my arm extended either. I'll signal just before or as I start moving.
Likes For Paul Barnard:
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2014
Location: USA
Posts: 1,838
Bikes: 1996 Trek 970 ZX Single Track 2x11
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 622 Post(s)
Liked 575 Times
in
436 Posts
I don't know of any states that imbue cyclists with "rights." The question is does your state law allow that kind of pass? Have you mentioned what state you are in and have you read your cycling laws? I have a hunch it is not permissible under the law. I certainly wouldn't pass a cyclist on the left under similar circumstances. I won't sit at a light with my arm extended either. I'll signal just before or as I start moving.
Though, inherently, I do believe every U.S. state has (like the "basic speed law" requiring driving no faster than conditions warrant) traffic law that essentially acknowledges the basic right of way / right to exist in the lane for slower-moving vehicles. IOW, just due to impatience or lateness a person can't simply disregard the risk inflicted upon others with a rushed pass, with aggressive tailgating/threats, with not making room for someone already there in the lane. (Beyond any outright statutes existing, say, barring pedestrian or slow-movers from highways, etc.)
#37
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
I don't know of any states that imbue cyclists with "rights." The question is does your state law allow that kind of pass? Have you mentioned what state you are in and have you read your cycling laws? I have a hunch it is not permissible under the law. I certainly wouldn't pass a cyclist on the left under similar circumstances. I won't sit at a light with my arm extended either. I'll signal just before or as I start moving.
It's permissible under NH law: ".A person propelling a bicycle may pass a slower-moving vehicle in the same lane provided such movement can be made with reasonable safety. A person propelling a bicycle may pass a stationary or stopped motor vehicle on the right." I don't believe there's any per se rule defining a pass in the intersection as not being "reasonably safe". And yes, NH defines "vehicle" as including bicycles.
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Atlantic Beach Florida
Posts: 1,950
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3792 Post(s)
Liked 1,055 Times
in
797 Posts
I've read my bike laws a lot, but not since this thread was opened. I'm not sure, but my state law probably says something similar to the above^.
However, laws don't address every possible situation. They probably never considered a cyclist passing another in an intersection where the lane is designated as both a straightway and left turning lane. Like I said above, I would not have passed if I were the guy in the rear, until after we made it thru the intersection, not so much because it was an intersection, but because I would have anticipated the cyclist turning, because most cyclists don't signal and many cars don't also. That's why when I'm approaching a car and they're going slow enough to turn, I just take the lane behind them....basically the same thing.
However, laws don't address every possible situation. They probably never considered a cyclist passing another in an intersection where the lane is designated as both a straightway and left turning lane. Like I said above, I would not have passed if I were the guy in the rear, until after we made it thru the intersection, not so much because it was an intersection, but because I would have anticipated the cyclist turning, because most cyclists don't signal and many cars don't also. That's why when I'm approaching a car and they're going slow enough to turn, I just take the lane behind them....basically the same thing.
#39
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,853
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2136 Post(s)
Liked 1,649 Times
in
830 Posts
It's permissible under NH law: ".A person propelling a bicycle may pass a slower-moving vehicle in the same lane provided such movement can be made with reasonable safety. A person propelling a bicycle may pass a stationary or stopped motor vehicle on the right." I don't believe there's any per se rule defining a pass in the intersection as not being "reasonably safe". And yes, NH defines "vehicle" as including bicycles.
Likes For Paul Barnard:
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,308
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4280 Post(s)
Liked 1,371 Times
in
952 Posts
The "fundamental" law for bicycling in Louisiana:
https://law.justia.com/codes/louisia...tle32/rs32-194
And every state has, as far as I have seen, the same law.
He's misleading you.
Think what you'd do if you were driving.
If you are a careful driver, you wouldn't choose to pass in this situation. The "rights and duties" law says you should do the same thing when on a bicycle.
https://law.justia.com/codes/louisia...tle32/rs32-194
§194. Traffic laws apply to persons riding bicycles
Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway of this state shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this Chapter, except as to special regulations in this Part, including special regulations applying to peace officers utilizing bicycles in furtherance of their official duties, and except as to those provisions of this Chapter which by their very nature can have no application.
Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway of this state shall be granted all of the rights and shall be subject to all the duties applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this Chapter, except as to special regulations in this Part, including special regulations applying to peace officers utilizing bicycles in furtherance of their official duties, and except as to those provisions of this Chapter which by their very nature can have no application.
He's misleading you.
Think what you'd do if you were driving.
If you are a careful driver, you wouldn't choose to pass in this situation. The "rights and duties" law says you should do the same thing when on a bicycle.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-29-21 at 10:20 PM.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,308
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4280 Post(s)
Liked 1,371 Times
in
952 Posts
It's permissible under NH law: ".A person propelling a bicycle may pass a slower-moving vehicle in the same lane provided such movement can be made with reasonable safety. A person propelling a bicycle may pass a stationary or stopped motor vehicle on the right." I don't believe there's any per se rule defining a pass in the intersection as not being "reasonably safe".
No careful, reasonable driver would do such a thing. No careful, reasonable driver needs an explicit law telling them it's not safe.
It doesn't matter at all whether bicycles are vehicles.
Every state (as far as I know) has the "fundamental" bicycle law.
Including NH.
https://www.fosters.com/news/2019070...-use-full-lane
Per New Hampshire law (RSA 265:143): “Bicyclists have the same rights and duties as drivers of motor vehicles.”
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-29-21 at 10:13 PM.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,308
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4280 Post(s)
Liked 1,371 Times
in
952 Posts
It's the wrong question.
Whether or not they had the right, they did it anyway.
You need to take more control of the situation. Don't expect or rely on the other person to do the proper thing.
Whether or not they had the right, they did it anyway.
You need to take more control of the situation. Don't expect or rely on the other person to do the proper thing.
- Use better lane positioning. If you are in a left/straight lane, you should be on the left(ish) side of it.
- Before you move left, look to see if it's clear.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-29-21 at 10:12 PM.
#43
I am potato.
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 3,125
Bikes: Only precision built, custom high performance elitist machines of the highest caliber. 🍆
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1795 Post(s)
Liked 1,640 Times
in
940 Posts
Am I the only one here wondering why the OP was just standing at an intersection on his bike waiting for a car to show up so he could continue his journey?
Stop first. Wait. Proceed after the light proved it didn't detect, then...Go, man. Go!
(Look at your own states laws, of course.)
Stop first. Wait. Proceed after the light proved it didn't detect, then...Go, man. Go!
(Look at your own states laws, of course.)
#45
Full Member
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Chicago
Posts: 309
Bikes: nothing to brag about
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 130 Post(s)
Liked 206 Times
in
116 Posts
You'll never be disappointed in life if you assume everyone is an idiot and act accordingly. People who turn without signaling are idiots; people who pass them on the left in left turn lanes are idiots. There's no shortage of idiots in life, so act accordingly. It's just common sense, really.
Likes For mdarnton:
#46
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
No. It's only permissible only if it can be done "with reasonable safety". It's not clearly reasonable to pass at an intersection.
No careful, reasonable driver would do such a thing. No careful, reasonable driver needs an explicit law telling them it's not safe.
It doesn't matter at all whether bicycles are vehicles.
Every state (as far as I know) has the "fundamental" bicycle law.
Including NH.
https://www.fosters.com/news/2019070...-use-full-lane
Note that this law talks about bicyclists (not bicycles, whether or not the state happens to legally define them as vehicles, which doesn't matter anyway).
No careful, reasonable driver would do such a thing. No careful, reasonable driver needs an explicit law telling them it's not safe.
It doesn't matter at all whether bicycles are vehicles.
Every state (as far as I know) has the "fundamental" bicycle law.
Including NH.
https://www.fosters.com/news/2019070...-use-full-lane
Note that this law talks about bicyclists (not bicycles, whether or not the state happens to legally define them as vehicles, which doesn't matter anyway).
The passing in the same lane law I quoted specifically applied only to bicyclists ."A person propelling a bicycle may pass a slower-moving vehicle in the same lane provided such movement can be made with reasonable safety." Who in their right mind would read a statute that explicitly only applies to cyclists to mean that the considerations in that safety calculation are exactly those of a driver of a motor vehicle?
I said very carefully that there was no per se rule forbidding the passing of another cyclist in an intersection and I'd have to see the intersection before I'd make a judgment whether a pass in that particular intersection could be made with reasonable safety. Your assertions to the contrary, I don't think it's an unusual practice. Maybe it is in NJ. I don't ride there.
My mention that a bicycle is a vehicle was to make clear that "slower-moving vehicle" included bicycles. So yes, it does matter in this instance in the interpretation of what you as a cyclist can and can't do in regards to other cyclists, unless you're taking the absurd position that it's legal to pass the bicycle but not the bicyclist on the bicycle.
By the way, I ride in NH, you don't. I can tell you it's quite normal for a car to pass me in an intersection when I'm on my bike, so I really have no idea why you think anything you've said makes sense. You put into bold an absurd statement. If I'm going straight in a FRAP position (as required by NH law), there is no inherent reason why a car three feet or more to my left can't or won't pass me in the intersection. It's why I move to the center of the left-most lane and signal my turn when I'm going left--I'd be an idiot to ignore the rather obvious likelihood that a driver behind me is going to assume otherwise that I'm going straight..
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,308
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4280 Post(s)
Liked 1,371 Times
in
952 Posts
The passing in the same lane law I quoted specifically applied only to bicyclists ."A person propelling a bicycle may pass a slower-moving vehicle in the same lane provided such movement can be made with reasonable safety." Who in their right mind would read a statute that explicitly only applies to cyclists to mean that the considerations in that safety calculation are exactly those of a driver of a motor vehicle?
The driver laws also apply to cyclists in NH.
I said very carefully that there was no per se rule forbidding the passing of another cyclist in an intersection and I'd have to see the intersection before I'd make a judgment whether a pass in that particular intersection could be made with reasonable safety. Your assertions to the contrary, I don't think it's an unusual practice. Maybe it is in NJ. I don't ride there.
In this case, the rider left-passed another vehicle waiting to make a left turn. Is that legal in NH?
My mention that a bicycle is a vehicle was to make clear that "slower-moving vehicle" included bicycles. So yes, it does matter in this instance in the interpretation of what you as a cyclist can and can't do in regards to other cyclists, unless you're taking the absurd position that it's legal to pass the bicycle but not the bicyclist on the bicycle.
The understanding of "slower moving vehicle" doesn't have anything to do with bicycles being vehicles or not.
It would be absurd if a bicyclist was allowed to pass a car but not a bicycle (based on the definition of "vehicle").
By the way, I ride in NH, you don't. I can tell you it's quite normal for a car to pass me in an intersection when I'm on my bike, so I really have no idea why you think anything you've said makes sense. You put into bold an absurd statement. If I'm going straight in a FRAP position (as required by NH law)...
The OP wasn't talking about riding FRAP.
Pay attention.
Last edited by njkayaker; 04-30-21 at 09:47 AM.
#49
Junior Member
IMO. Left turn, right turn, straight, signaled, didn't signal? So what? If an intersection is busy enough to have 3 lanes going in one direction and likely 3 lanes going the opposite direction and probably multiple lanes on the cross street, that's a lot of places for the car driven by a distracted, speeding, whatever driver to come from that could easily crunch a cyclist who is unwisely blowing through an intersection no matter what color the lights are.
Likes For Medium Size Dog:
#50
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
IMO. Left turn, right turn, straight, signaled, didn't signal? So what? If an intersection is busy enough to have 3 lanes going in one direction and likely 3 lanes going the opposite direction and probably multiple lanes on the cross street, that's a lot of places for the car driven by a distracted, speeding, whatever driver to come from that could easily crunch a cyclist who is unwisely blowing through an intersection no matter what color the lights are.
Wait, what?! Are you saying you need to stop or crawl through such an intersection even if you have the green light? You're going to need to define "plow" because I don't think there's anything inappropriate about maintaining your speed as long as you're doing the normal cross street scan as you get there. The number of lanes has nothing to do with that.